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Post by gouge on Jun 8, 2018 16:27:11 GMT -6
just had a look at the mesanovic plots. that looks exactly like what i should try s well. thanks for that suggestions.
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Post by Ward on Jun 8, 2018 16:43:32 GMT -6
And gouge, with respect to both popmann and Mean Grandpa. . . . If your rca is defective and still sounds great, DONT fix it. (And stay off his lawn)
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Post by popmann on Jun 8, 2018 16:54:55 GMT -6
Um....I didn’t imean in any way suggest the mic was broken OR that he should fix it. I pointed out the fact that Fig8 pattern picks up less room than cardioid.
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 8, 2018 17:51:09 GMT -6
I did. It has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. If an RCA figure 8 is not identical front and back there's something wrong with it - probably a stretched ribbon or a bad re-ribbon job. Assymetricality is caused by the ribbon not being properly centered in the magnetic field. That's how Royer gets their "two different sounds in one mic" thing, but RCAs are not designed that way. Actually, in the case of Royers it was originally an assembly error in one of David Royer's prototypes in which he saw the potential for a sales gimmick*. If an RCA, which is designed to be symmetrical, is not there's something wrong, probably with the ribbon, but possibly with the placement of one or more magnets if the mic had been dropped hard enough to shift them. Your mic needs service. I sent my 74 to Wes Dooley at AEA, but there are others. I imagine our own Jon from Shinybox could take care of it.
You haven't told us what model RCA you have yet.
I'm not entirely certain what Popman means by "drier", but it doesn't have anything to do with pattern symmnetry. And I'm not certain what he means by that description - figure 8 mics exhibit a HUGE proximity effect, which is not exactly what I would call "dry". Semantics is a pain.
Just for reference, I have a number of ribbon mics - the RCA 74, a Beyer M160, 3 vintage Shures (one model 300 and a pair of 330s that need service as they don't sound the same), an Oktava, a Cascade Fathead, and a Nady that sometimes does good duty as a paperweight.
* - David Royer makes no secret of this, it's right there in his company literature. It's also why I won't buy his mics.
it really does have everything to do with what is being discussed here. a ribbon mic in free air picks up minimal room sound from the rear of the mic. that combined with the tight side nulls means a lot of isolation can be achieved. so whilst the pattern and response is even the source is not even front/back. that aside not all ribbon mics are even front to back. take the 74jr. it has some off axis issues and is definitely not even front to back. have a look at the polar plot as an example. i think the 74jr is one of the most over rated ribbon mics around. if it had a flatter freq response it would be a better utility mic. - oh and the one i use was restored by mark f so im sure it works. my other rca mic does have an even front to back response and a fairly linear freq but it lacks air. ive got a film industries m8 to be restored. i'll see how that goes but i'm thinking a samar is one path to take. the royer i use doesn't jive with me but always seems to mix well. damn that mic!. the beyer m160 i stopped using. i have used a jolly modified nady mic and that is a keeper. A figure 8 ribbon in good condition picks up just as much room sound from the back as from the front - the patterns should be identical unless something is wrong or it's a Royer. (Or a new Shure. Shure brought out a new mic in the Royer vein since Royer's patent has probably lapsed.) That's why it's called a figure 8. Saying it doesn't pick up room sound from the back is ludicrous.
There are many things that can go wrong with a ribbon mic between being serviced and being put to use, and once in use it's really easy to damage one inadvertantly, especially a long ribbon design with little protection like a 74. You DO store it vertically,. don't you?
The 74 was RCA's budget ribbon. I find mine somewhat disappointing to be honest, but I only paid $100 for it a a flea market, plus about another $100 and shipping for the new ribbon. I like my Shure 300 much better.
The 160 is something of an odd duck. The stock ribbon is much different than most - it has pleats that run vertically, not horizontally with short horizontal sections on the ends. It's also a hypercardioid.
I have not used a Samar but I've seen one at AES and was very impressed with the quality of the workmanship.
Nady mics are made in the same factory that makies all the other identical looking ribbons. The problem with them is that John Nady has a well deserved rep in the biz as the cheapest bastard in the gear business and the mics he sells are purchased as cheap as he can get them, which means they didn't pass QC for the other brands - tjhey're rejects. The basic motor assembly is OK, so a going over by somebody like Mr. Joly will improve it greatly. I know a bit about John Nady, being a former employee. My Nady was a $20 impulse buy at a GC blowout.
You might look for an old Shure 330 in good shape that's the one Johnny Carson used and it's a super cardioid as is the 333. I can't speak from experience as mine need servicing so I've never had a chance to use one, but they're well thought of. My 300 figure 8 is great.
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 8, 2018 19:33:28 GMT -6
Um....I didn’t imean in any way suggest the mic was broken OR that he should fix it. I pointed out the fact that Fig8 pattern picks up less room than cardioid. Well it cerainly picks up less sides - but it picks up a LOT more back. Does that equate to "less room"? I don't think so, but it's probably the way you look at it. Or hear it..
As I understand it, the reason guys like William Wittman favor the Coles 4038 for room mics is the amount of room picked up from the rear.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 8, 2018 20:36:35 GMT -6
Um....I didn’t imean in any way suggest the mic was broken OR that he should fix it. I pointed out the fact that Fig8 pattern picks up less room than cardioid. Well it cerainly picks up less sides - but it picks up a LOT more back. Does that equate to "less room"? I don't think so, but it's probably the way you look at it. Or hear it..
As I understand it, the reason guys like William Wittman favor the Coles 4038 for room mics is the amount of room picked up from the rear.
Pretty much all patterns pick up the same amount of acoustic energy it’s just about where it’s consentrated. So if we get down to math all patterns pick up the room equally pattern just determines what part of the room.
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 8, 2018 20:44:52 GMT -6
Well it cerainly picks up less sides - but it picks up a LOT more back. Does that equate to "less room"? I don't think so, but it's probably the way you look at it. Or hear it..
As I understand it, the reason guys like William Wittman favor the Coles 4038 for room mics is the amount of room picked up from the rear.
Pretty much all patterns pick up the same amount of acoustic energy it’s just about where it’s consentrated. So if we get down to math all patterns pick up the room equally pattern just determines what part of the room. Including omni? Really?
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Post by ericn on Jun 8, 2018 21:51:07 GMT -6
Pretty much all patterns pick up the same amount of acoustic energy it’s just about where it’s consentrated. So if we get down to math all patterns pick up the room equally pattern just determines what part of the room. Including omni? Really? Yep, I was taught by the guys at Shure & EV, (engineers not reps) and Jon Lipp one of the 5 guys not macking mics who know mics this basic concept. Surprised the hell out of me! This led to me examining Cardiff’s in particular and realizing how worthless they really are for rear rejection except right in that notch as well as how much that rear lobe in hyper & super cardiod’s! The off axis linearity in a natural Omni is so much easier to deal with even live! I discovered this switching out the cardiod lavs for omnis on all 30 ch of wireless on a musical. Less feedback and EQ of monitors needed because no matter what angle the mic was at it had the same response. To this day I swear it’s not that a 635 is better than any other dynamic it’s the fact that it’s linear off axis!
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Post by Blackdawg on Jun 8, 2018 22:42:05 GMT -6
the 635 is super underrated. Omni's are great for outdoors too because they as as susceptible to wind with filers on them for the same reasons. Omnis are the best
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Post by Blackdawg on Jun 8, 2018 22:42:33 GMT -6
just had a look at the mesanovic plots. that looks exactly like what i should try s well. thanks for that suggestions. They are a pretty tight fig8 mic. Sound great too, I don't think you'll be disappointed.
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Post by gouge on Jun 9, 2018 0:37:20 GMT -6
the 635 is super underrated. Omni's are great for outdoors too because they as as susceptible to wind with filers on them for the same reasons. Omnis are the best i've got 3..... :-) recently started using sony f96 omni mics on guitar cabs.....
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 9, 2018 2:10:26 GMT -6
the 635 is super underrated. Omni's are great for outdoors too because they as as susceptible to wind with filers on them for the same reasons. Omnis are the best i've got 3..... :-) recently started using sony f96 omni mics on guitar cabs..... Omnis on guitar cabs are an often overlooked thing. I have a Earthworks omni measurement mic that works great on guitar cabs. I don't have any 635s right now and I'm really not sure why...
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Post by Blackdawg on Jun 9, 2018 8:58:28 GMT -6
i've got 3..... :-) recently started using sony f96 omni mics on guitar cabs..... Omnis on guitar cabs are an often overlooked thing. I have a Earthworks omni measurement mic that works great on guitar cabs. I don't have any 635s right now and I'm really not sure why... Don't take this the wrong way... but i find that rather surprising. the 635 is a great a kick mic too while we are on the subject. Really nice drum mic all around actually.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 9, 2018 9:58:08 GMT -6
gouge, I've tried quite a few mics the last year or two, many at reasonable cost. The one standout that had a little something special was the Roswell Delphos. It just has a sound, like a U87 has a sound. I think it would work beautifully in a Rock or Country Rock/Pop setting. Of course it depends on your personal situation. Svart makes sense about getting some classics first. I've borrowed my friends KM84's many times, and they never fail to sound great. Now, if you want super special sauce, then you might have to pay. I had the Chandler REDD mic, and it's magnificent. It sounds like itself, but could be said to sound like a U47 and ELAM 251 had a baby. Best bang for the buck mic I tried was the Soyuz 0-13 FET. It rivaled the KM84's and is new with a warranty at $600. Here's a clip of the 0-13..
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 9, 2018 12:40:34 GMT -6
Omnis on guitar cabs are an often overlooked thing. I have a Earthworks omni measurement mic that works great on guitar cabs. I don't have any 635s right now and I'm really not sure why... Don't take this the wrong way... but i find that rather surprising. the 635 is a great a kick mic too while we are on the subject. Really nice drum mic all around actually. I do too, now that I think of it. I own plenty of other EV mics and have had several 635s in the past, all of which were stolen. I should look what's available on Ebay. The price of new 635s has gone up bu a faily shocking amount in recent years - it used to be they cost about half what a 57 did, now it's significantly more....
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 9, 2018 15:23:22 GMT -6
i've got 3..... :-) recently started using sony f96 omni mics on guitar cabs..... Omnis on guitar cabs are an often overlooked thing. I have a Earthworks omni measurement mic that works great on guitar cabs. I don't have any 635s right now and I'm really not sure why... The Earthworks mics are often over looked, but I have a real problem personally paying that much for a mic that uses a dirt cheap Panasonic capsule, even if the reject rate for their bottom models is like 90%. That’s just me and I have owned at least 2 pairs at one time or another.
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 9, 2018 15:35:03 GMT -6
Omnis on guitar cabs are an often overlooked thing. I have a Earthworks omni measurement mic that works great on guitar cabs. I don't have any 635s right now and I'm really not sure why... The Earthworks mics are often over looked, but I have a real problem personally paying that much for a mic that uses a dirt cheap Panasonic capsule, even if the reject rate for their bottom models is like 90%. That’s just me and I have owned at least 2 pairs at one time or another. Mine is one that was OEMed to dbx for use with their Driverack for about one year, until dbx figured out they could get something cheaper elsewhere. I got it at GC, who didn't exactly understand (because it says dbx in addition to Earthworks and carries a model number that isn't in the normal Earthworks catalog) what they had and sold it to me for 40 bucks.
So I didn't actually pay that much.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 9, 2018 16:33:46 GMT -6
The Earthworks mics are often over looked, but I have a real problem personally paying that much for a mic that uses a dirt cheap Panasonic capsule, even if the reject rate for their bottom models is like 90%. That’s just me and I have owned at least 2 pairs at one time or another. Mine is one that was OEMed to dbx for use with their Driverack for about one year, until dbx figured out they could get something cheaper elsewhere. I got it at GC, who didn't exactly understand (because it says dbx in addition to Earthworks and carries a model number that isn't in the normal Earthworks catalog) what they had and sold it to me for 40 bucks.
So I didn't actually pay that much.
Nice, I have always wanted to try the Audix, that was OEM’D by MBHO. Kind of surprised, but in the end not that DBX / Harmon would have used Earthworks at that point, even with the Blackmore connection.
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Post by chessparov on Jun 14, 2018 4:16:52 GMT -6
Also for a non-pro like me,"buy used/flip/find special sauce", is highly educational. How in the world would I have found that a $60 AKG D790, or a $100 Oktava stock 219, both sound MUCH more expen$ive (for my voice) than they were?
Chris
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Post by ericn on Jun 14, 2018 7:01:46 GMT -6
I'm going to be a party pooper and say don't buy used mics and flip. You're always going to take a hit on the sale for most mics unless they're collectors items anyway, and then you're just going to pay too much! Get the normal workhorse mics that all the pros use, and use them. It's fun to play around with new mics, but it's frustrating to be changing mics out in sessions because you have too many options and become deaf to their differences. Get something with a U prefix in front of it. U87, U47, etc. Get a handful of something with an SM prefix.. Get a pair with a KM prefix.. Get a pair of neutral workhorse LDCs like 414s or M930s. Get enough of something with an MD prefix for your drums. Get a ribbon with a R prefix.. Once you have all those, then you can play around with other mics. There's a reason that there's about a dozen mics that the pros always pick from. They work. They're reliable. They get the job done. Chris One other way to look at any loss on the flip is as an educational expense. The only way to learn if you like a mic is by using it, the cost of rental for any period of time or buying something new and flipping is going to be significantly more.
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Post by gouge on Jun 14, 2018 7:05:24 GMT -6
i reckon a good mic reveals itself in about 3 seconds flat.
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Post by svart on Jun 14, 2018 7:32:09 GMT -6
I'm going to be a party pooper and say don't buy used mics and flip. You're always going to take a hit on the sale for most mics unless they're collectors items anyway, and then you're just going to pay too much! Get the normal workhorse mics that all the pros use, and use them. It's fun to play around with new mics, but it's frustrating to be changing mics out in sessions because you have too many options and become deaf to their differences. Get something with a U prefix in front of it. U87, U47, etc. Get a handful of something with an SM prefix.. Get a pair with a KM prefix.. Get a pair of neutral workhorse LDCs like 414s or M930s. Get enough of something with an MD prefix for your drums. Get a ribbon with a R prefix.. Once you have all those, then you can play around with other mics. There's a reason that there's about a dozen mics that the pros always pick from. They work. They're reliable. They get the job done. Chris One other way to look at any loss on the flip is as an educational expense. The only way to learn if you like a mic is by using it, the cost of rental for any period of time or buying something new and flipping is going to be significantly more. You can.. But my experience with this has been negative. I wish I had heeded the wisdom that you "buy right, buy once". I really wish I hadn't been so bullheaded about "doing it my way" and listened to those who had suggested that I save up and buy the right gear at the outset. I probably spent ten thousand dollars on cheap gear that I ended up selling and regreting. I rarely broke even, and in most cases lost money. But looking back, I think the thing I'm most upset about is the years I spent "learning" how to record with gear that made me work 4x harder to get the same sounds. Today I think back on the hours and hours I'd spend trying different mics, preamps, mixing tricks, settings, etc and still not getting "the sound" while the next guy sets up a mic and records and it's "just right" within minutes. I'd spend more hours and hours tweaking EQ, compression, etc, to fix issues that others just didn't have. I learned to work around the issues of my gear through effort, rather than learning to record with care and compassion for the material. I spent more time fretting about some nasal frequencies than getting the right takes down. In the end I was frustrated and well behind in skillset simply because I didn't think or care about my cheapness and shortcuts actually hurting me in the long run. When I moved the studio ten years ago, I sold tons of gear, mostly cheap stuff, and vowed to start again. My process started by listing out what I had in my studio, and then listing out the most common pro level gear that all the big guys used.. 1176, LA2A, SSL bus, U47/87/67, SM57/58, 1073/1084/1272, 312, etc.. All listed over and over from engineer to engineer.. And the pattern was clear... The pros used the same gear between each other, not just because that was what was available to them, but also because it was integral to the professional sound. And once I sold all the cheap junk and started using the common gear, the sound just fell into place as it should have done ten years prior. It's humbling to realize that "it's the ear, not the gear" is pure egotistical fantasy that someone says to convince themselves that their being cheap is justified. It's not. Don't go cheap. Buy professional gear once. Let your skills blossom from the solid foundation of professional gear. Don't try to cheap out and "get one over on the man" by believing you'll be the one to make a 100$ mic sound like a 2000$ mic. It just doesn't work regardless of what the marketing folks tell you.
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Post by svart on Jun 14, 2018 7:36:39 GMT -6
i reckon a good mic reveals itself in about 3 seconds flat. Yes and no. A good mic doesn't reveal itself at all. it's like a freshly cleaned window that you can see through without having to look around fingerprints and smudges. But a good mic can also be the wrong mic for a job too, which is why there are many choices to use among the pro level mics available. More window analogies: You might want a nice clean window for one thing, but a magnifying glass for another. Both could have fingerprints that hurt you more than help..
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Post by gouge on Jun 14, 2018 7:50:43 GMT -6
i reckon a good mic reveals itself in about 3 seconds flat. Yes and no. A good mic doesn't reveal itself at all. it's like a freshly cleaned window that you can see through without having to look around fingerprints and smudges. But a good mic can also be the wrong mic for a job too, which is why there are many choices to use among the pro level mics available. More window analogies: You might want a nice clean window for one thing, but a magnifying glass for another. Both could have fingerprints that hurt you more than help.. i dunno, i have mics that just sound good everywhere and on everything. i can't see them ever being the wrong mic for a job. they have something special going on. when i look at what they have in common they all have a relatively flat responses and have excellent off axis sound quality.
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Post by thehightenor on Jun 14, 2018 8:08:31 GMT -6
Beyer M88.
Definitely won't suck the room in and you can make a whole album on that single mic!
You can record a kick with it, a floor Tom, a bass cab, guitar cab, acoustic guitar, wind chimes and then cut a world class vocal.
One of my favorite mics ever.
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