Microtuning/Hermode Tuning VIs

So, no one?

Apparnetly Kontakt doesn’t support external micro tuning, so....that means I’m back to using the old VSL. I did horn part (duo) last night that I just set up instrument micro tune;g for the given notes in the relatively short passage that needed altering. I find the maj 3rd is that one that offends my ear most....and obviously it sinversion 6th....

So far, I gather that with vsl it should work natively in Logic AND Cubase....but I still don’t get how Logic does it with no chord track....how does Logic know what the harmonic context is it’s adjusting for? Does it do some internal summing of all midi notes? ThAt seems like a bad idea including drums and keyswitches and other non harmonic”y valid notes.

Am I the only one doing this? I mean, too far to go for subtlety? Maybe this is a component to why I hate virtual string arranging. It can just be the difference, IME, in “nice sting samples” and “wait—are those real strings?”

Edit....Hermode doesn't do well "live". I remembered that one of my little iPad instruments does it...it tunes differently based on the order you play notes. Meaning, you play a A7 as a block, all four notes contained, but nothing else....it knows to flatten the C#, but it also flattened the E, which should be sharp....until I played it the chord top to bottom. like ....A...C#....E....G...then I can Replay those notes and octaves of them and it tunes it correctly-flattening the C# and G....sharpening the E....so this is why the version inside Kontakt doesn't work well for me. It doesn't have the same level of graphical feedback as the iPad iSymphonic for me to play with. I just knew you enabled it and some chords it worked well and some it made sour and worse than just intonation. 

So, the Chord Track paradigm HAS to be the only way it's useful. A global DAW level definition of "A dominant 7 HERE"....could work with dynamic tuning. I'll try Cubase+VSL, which we know responds to the commands.

Edit: Cubase 9.5+Chord Track definition+VSL VIP2=great contextual tuning. Works so well that I didn't know it was working until I turn it OFF....so, that will be the way forward for now--which means figuring out how the VST Expression maps work again. I figured it out at some point....but, I use it so infrequently, I have to relearn every time.

So, Logic's implementation is subpar. That "real time" chord detection you see at the top of the screen? It's doing some kind of sum internally to get that....no way to direct it to a specific track....and it does it IN real time along with that display, so you can SEE why it's wrong....

There does seem to be some sort of a "caching for panned back context" with Hermode. You can SEE that happening in iSymphonic....where you can play low to high an A7....a it's lovely and perfectly intonated--but, then move to a Bb7 (up a half step) and it's fucked, because it's going to try to keep the A unaltered....D will not flatten as much as it should because it's "remembering" the A7 previous....

Anyway--it seems like Cubase works best--but, only if you populate it's global chord pad. And critically to them--this is NOT spelled out in the manual. "This is how you turn on her mode tuning"....section on chord tracks involve how to get MIDI and audio tracks to modulate with the changes and such...no mention of it driving the Hermode tuning if enabled, but it does--because it's clean. Like I said--I didn't hear any artifacts....thought it wasn't working when the solo'd strings I couldn't hear little bits of wonky.....then I turned it off (and the strings went back to tempered tuning....funny thing is--I set up the chord track earlier trying to see if it did anything "cool"....answer--everything I found it could do was dumb....but, I didn't delete it....it's just there....and it's why the Hermode tuning works better than my other two options.

Side note: I downloaded the latest update for VIPro2, hoping they'd gone to VST3. Nope. So, no note by note expression system.

I have to be honest. You’re way above my head here.

I don't do much with string vsts but I have had this issue before with players not used to playing in ensembles.

I'd you're looking to fake it easily, the best thing to do is get the 3rds just, then then the 7ths and only really worry about the 5ths on diminished or augmented chords. Obviously that means automation. There's a good book How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony And why You Should Care that offers various interesting solutions.

Now for melodic lines you've a lot more scope. Some players will actually use pythagorean tuning deliberately to be a bit sharp and stand out.

I did not. Now that you type it I still don't.

John, if you want the explanation I got as a student:

www.amazon.com/Lies-My-Music-Teacher-Told/dp/1886209111/ref=pd_sbs_14_1?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=1886209111&pd_rd_r=NAXYJVCYD6KA2Q4R2SJG&pd_rd_w=kcM17&pd_rd_wg=gsLoO&psc=1&refRID=NAXYJVCYD6KA2Q4R2SJG

Much like the reason that "fake drums" sound fake is the player and lack of context....well, this is the same deal. I've used all kinds of methods over the years to "more properly" intonate sampled string sections. This is the easiest and best sounding by far....and I still can't find where it's really documented in the Cubase manual. Reports on VI control from years ago when they implemented it were that it didn't work--and sound very much like how Logic is today--trying to sum all the midi notes, come up with a context on the fly, and then send tuning messages. Cubase 9.5 at least gets around this by allowing the chord track to drive the Hermode detection when nothing else is set to....so context is user defined and static. It KNOWS it's a D7, so when you play an F# or C, it WILL be flattened (to different amounts)....when you play an A it will be a little sharp of 440.

Jeremy, my goal with this project was to go back to how I used to HAVE to work--all by my lonesome in a home studio....only using the latest tech to make everything....um--well, easier? Faster? Better? Wherever that takes me. It's the wave of the....now. Have computer, will make music by oneself. All I can say for sure this time is "no way it's faster".