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Post by Johnkenn on May 1, 2019 23:13:07 GMT -6
I failed to do All Buttons In...
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Post by ragan on May 2, 2019 0:06:13 GMT -6
Here are some comparisons between the WA76 (Rev D circuit) vs the ADG D and the Hairball Rev A vs the ADG A. This is a drum room track. 8:1 ratio, fastest attack and release, 5-7 dB max gain reduction (a setting I use often to juice up the bloom of drum room mics). The WA76 vs ADG D is the most pronounced but you can see the effect comparing the Hairball Rev A and the ADG A too. The non-ADG comps are increasing the density of the waveform and tamping down the peaks. The ADG isn't doing it near as much. I've always loved the way an 1176 can just manhandle dynamics. Kind of its stock in trade. That's the thing I'm finding somewhat missing in the ADG. Attachments:
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on May 2, 2019 1:16:27 GMT -6
Well, waveforms don’t lie, there is certainly a difference and if we refer to this as sonically thickening the sound that is what we also see to different amounts in those waveforms.
Thx guys.
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Post by stam on May 2, 2019 6:28:39 GMT -6
Looking into this today and tomorrow, will report back
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Post by Johnkenn on May 2, 2019 7:02:57 GMT -6
Well, waveforms don’t lie, there is certainly a difference and if we refer to this as sonically thickening the sound that is what we also see to different amounts in those waveforms. Thx guys. That’s true to a point but also keep in mind that I eyeballed the output levels. Although, the input level is obviously the same - maxed.
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Post by stam on May 2, 2019 7:33:55 GMT -6
I am working on this right now and have found a possible problem and solution, good news is that it is very easy to fix but I need to confirm
I will report back this afternoon
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Post by kcatthedog on May 2, 2019 8:33:38 GMT -6
Well, waveforms don’t lie, there is certainly a difference and if we refer to this as sonically thickening the sound that is what we also see to different amounts in those waveforms. Thx guys. That’s true to a point but also keep in mind that I eyeballed the output levels. Although, the input level is obviously the same - maxed. a 76 compression ratio is actually positively correlated to the input signal, if the input signal isn't hot enough you actually don't hit the ratio of compression so as ratio increases you have to increase input and the opposite for lower compression ratios, but both your waveform indicate that the actual compression between the two units with the same signal and same settings is definitely affecting the waveform differently.
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Post by ragan on May 2, 2019 8:34:23 GMT -6
Well, waveforms don’t lie, there is certainly a difference and if we refer to this as sonically thickening the sound that is what we also see to different amounts in those waveforms. Thx guys. That’s true to a point but also keep in mind that I eyeballed the output levels. Although, the input level is obviously the same - maxed. I did too, but in this scenario, it’s not really about them being level matched (and that’s sort of impossible to do when the peak/RMS ratio is so different) it’s about what the compressors are doing to the envelope. The thing to do here is match the amount of gain reduction and look at that envelope. You can totally see what we’ve been talking about.
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Post by kcatthedog on May 2, 2019 8:37:27 GMT -6
Team RaganJohn 1: Team Compressor Envelop zip !!!
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Post by stam on May 2, 2019 10:14:53 GMT -6
Still working on it
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Post by the other mark williams on May 2, 2019 11:11:32 GMT -6
Here are some comparisons between the WA76 (Rev D circuit) vs the ADG D and the Hairball Rev A vs the ADG A. This is a drum room track. 8:1 ratio, fastest attack and release, 5-7 dB max gain reduction (a setting I use often to juice up the bloom of drum room mics). The WA76 vs ADG D is the most pronounced but you can see the effect comparing the Hairball Rev A and the ADG A too. The non-ADG comps are increasing the density of the waveform and tamping down the peaks. The ADG isn't doing it near as much. I've always loved the way an 1176 can just manhandle dynamics. Kind of its stock in trade. That's the thing I'm finding somewhat missing in the ADG. Ragan, this almost makes it look like the release is faster on the ADG. Like it recovers faster than the others, and then the next transient pops through more. But I'm guessing my interpretation of the waveform is incorrect there, or you would've noticed it in-use. Thoughts?
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Post by ragan on May 2, 2019 11:20:29 GMT -6
Here are some comparisons between the WA76 (Rev D circuit) vs the ADG D and the Hairball Rev A vs the ADG A. This is a drum room track. 8:1 ratio, fastest attack and release, 5-7 dB max gain reduction (a setting I use often to juice up the bloom of drum room mics). The WA76 vs ADG D is the most pronounced but you can see the effect comparing the Hairball Rev A and the ADG A too. The non-ADG comps are increasing the density of the waveform and tamping down the peaks. The ADG isn't doing it near as much. I've always loved the way an 1176 can just manhandle dynamics. Kind of its stock in trade. That's the thing I'm finding somewhat missing in the ADG. Ragan, this almost makes it look like the release is faster on the ADG. Like it recovers faster than the others, and then the next transient pops through more. But I'm guessing my interpretation of the waveform is incorrect there, or you would've noticed it in-use. Thoughts? I could see what you mean but I don't think that's it. One thing to note is that the envelope behavior of each comp is the same on the first transient as it is on the rest. So even when both comps are completely recovered and at rest (before any audio has passed through them), the WA76 still catches/squashes and the ADG D still doesn't as much. But also just audibly, it doesn't sound like a release issue. It just sounds like the ADG isn't handling transients like it should. But I'm just guessing based on the sonics. Very keen to see what Joshua thinks is up here.
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Post by ragan on May 2, 2019 11:25:54 GMT -6
The filled out/meaty part of the WA76 and Hairball waveforms shows up in DAW metering too. For the same peak values, the ADG always has lower RMS (and thus lower perceived volume). When you put them next to each other and watch the DAW meters dance, the WA76 and Hairball will be averaging higher values than the ADG (if the peaks are matched).
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Post by kcatthedog on May 2, 2019 13:18:16 GMT -6
The filled out/meaty part of the WA76 and Hairball waveforms shows up in DAW metering too. For the same peak values, the ADG always has lower RMS (and thus lower perceived volume). When you put them next to each other and watch the DAW meters dance, the WA76 and Hairball will be averaging higher values than the ADG (if the peaks are matched). makes sense as the compressor is not taking away energy: really just changing its sound envelope ?
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Post by Johnkenn on May 2, 2019 14:05:56 GMT -6
That’s true to a point but also keep in mind that I eyeballed the output levels. Although, the input level is obviously the same - maxed. a 76 compression ratio is actually positively correlated to the input signal, if the input signal isn't hot enough you actually don't hit the ratio of compression so as ratio increases you have to increase input and the opposite for lower compression ratios, but both your waveform indicate that the actual compression between the two units with the same signal and same settings is definitely affecting the waveform differently. All input was maxed.
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Post by kcatthedog on May 2, 2019 14:08:33 GMT -6
So theoretically hitting the compression the same but they are different builds so maybe not ?
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Post by ragan on May 2, 2019 14:29:00 GMT -6
So theoretically hitting the compression the same but they are different builds so maybe not ? On my test at least the GR was the same on both units. That’s what I match, not the input controls. That should account for any gain discrepancies between them.
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Post by 000 on May 2, 2019 14:36:01 GMT -6
So aside from it perhaps not being true to a traditional 1176 - it just means this might be a slower compressor? So if we were to compare to say an la2a which is known to be slower we would see even more of this effect?
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Post by kcatthedog on May 2, 2019 14:38:43 GMT -6
Agreed for the actual amplitude of the signal but the two different compressors while cloning the same circuit have different parts etc, so their actual behaviour could vary and apparently do?
Be interesting to what Josh comes back with or if we can mod something simply: love the tone be nice to fine tune the attack factor ?
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Post by ragan on May 2, 2019 14:54:22 GMT -6
Agreed for the actual amplitude of the signal but the two different compressors while cloning the same circuit have different parts etc, so their actual behaviour could vary and apparently do? Be interesting to what Josh comes back with or if we can mod something simply: love the tone be nice to fine tune the attack factor ? Yeah, I mean I wouldn’t expect them to be exactly the same by any means. What is surprising though and perhaps problematic is that it’s an 1176 that can’t catch peaks very well. I don’t think that was Joshua’s intention here since he’s going after classic 1176 behavior, the main quality of which is its ability to handle transients and squash peaks.
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Post by kcatthedog on May 2, 2019 15:54:51 GMT -6
Oh, I completely understand and support your point. I only have other 76 experience with my WA units and I like the WA and SA for different reasons. I had thought the SA seemed to be sculpting things differently but I have been using them on vocals, electric guitars and bass and happy with the results and that vintage tone, but it will be great to get the timing factors better dialed in.
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Post by wiz on May 2, 2019 16:21:17 GMT -6
I am working on this right now and have found a possible problem and solution, good news is that it is very easy to fix but I need to confirm I will report back this afternoon Hey stamglad you have found it. Let me know if this exists on the REV A standalone version as well Ward I havent heard anything untoward , but then again I dont crush anything cheers Wiz
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Post by ragan on May 2, 2019 17:08:46 GMT -6
I am working on this right now and have found a possible problem and solution, good news is that it is very easy to fix but I need to confirm I will report back this afternoon Hey stamglad you have found it. Let me know if this exists on the REV A standalone version as well Ward I havent heard anything untoward , but then again I dont crush anything cheers Wiz Do you have any other 1176 comps there, Peter? If so, what happens when you put your Stam Rev A on a vocal at Dr Pepper settings compressing around 5-7 dB? Does it keep the vocal dynamics in place like other 1176s (if you’ve got em) or is it letting higher peaks through? I first noticed the issue in that context, not crushing anything. I’m curious about your Stam Rev A.
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Post by Johnkenn on May 2, 2019 17:17:58 GMT -6
Yeah - happens regardless of crushing.
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Post by wiz on May 2, 2019 17:22:07 GMT -6
Hey stam glad you have found it. Let me know if this exists on the REV A standalone version as well Ward I havent heard anything untoward , but then again I dont crush anything cheers Wiz Do you have any other 1176 comps there, Peter? If so, what happens when you put your Stam Rev A on a vocal at Dr Pepper settings compressing around 5-7 dB? Does it keep the vocal dynamics in place like other 1176s (if you’ve got em) or is it letting higher peaks through? I first noticed the issue in that context, not crushing anything. I’m curious about your Stam Rev A. Hi raganI used to own a WA76, and I have used a real REV A before. My Stam Rev A has the attack and release operating in reverse, which is why I mentioned you guys check that, so my 10- 2 is your 2-10. Mine behaves properly in terms of attack, I havent noticed anything like you guys are describing, but then again I dont do crush as I mentioned, and I probably dont compress as much as you guys. Mine gets used primarily behind a LA2A set on 8:1 and doing 1,2,3 db of Gain reduction as per meter. I just set it up now, on a vocal, just using it on its own, and did the 5-7 dB GR you asked about, and it does the pin the vocal, thats on 8:1, if I set it to 20:1 it just holds the vocal absolutely in place, but, I dont actually go for that sound. cheers Wiz
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