ericn
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Post by ericn on Apr 27, 2018 6:36:48 GMT -6
An AM-864 is rated at slightly less than +8dBm output at LESS THAN 2% distortion in the MID-BAND, so higher in the bottom. He seems to have made 3 antique product clones that no one knows how to drive. Easily fine in execution, but not meeting modern expectations. 2 preamps that were meant to function within the confines of a console having additional output headroom. All more suited to tape than digital. Who put a D4 up against another REDD 47 clone? Drive ? Gain staging who has the timeš? This is one of the reasons I still preach no matter how ITB you are a small mixer is a must for all these little utility duties! In the age of the internet hype is easy, execution is as hard as ever!
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Post by rob61 on Apr 27, 2018 6:42:14 GMT -6
An AM-864 is rated at slightly less than +8dBm output at LESS THAN 2% distortion in the MID-BAND, so higher in the bottom. He seems to have made 3 antique product clones that no one knows how to drive. Easily fine in execution, but not meeting modern expectations. 2 preamps that were meant to function within the confines of a console having additional output headroom. All more suited to tape than digital. Who put a D4 up against another REDD 47 clone? The same thoughts came to my mind reading through this thread and having read a lot of stuff on this company.. Seems people want exact clones based on hype, but want all the modern attributes, without any of the vintage detriments. Working with these units with their "vintage detriments" makes you appreciate even more the amazing accomplishments of pioneering engineers such as Geoff Emerick and Ken Townsend.
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Post by EmRR on Apr 27, 2018 8:24:40 GMT -6
The same thoughts came to my mind reading through this thread and having read a lot of stuff on this company.. Seems people want exact clones based on hype, but want all the modern attributes, without any of the vintage detriments. Working with these units with their "vintage detriments" makes you appreciate even more the amazing accomplishments of pioneering engineers such as Geoff Emerick and Ken Townsend. But they arenāt hard to drive! This is what I do at my place all the time. You just have to understand them. Those guys never drove them the way people are trying to drive them now.
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Post by M57 on Apr 27, 2018 13:56:17 GMT -6
Working with these units with their "vintage detriments" makes you appreciate even more the amazing accomplishments of pioneering engineers such as Geoff Emerick and Ken Townsend. But they arenāt hard to drive! This is what I do at my place all the time. You just have to understand them. Those guys never drove them the way people are trying to drive them now. I dunno - I started hearing distortion with most mics at +28 or +32 By the time I was ready to sell them I was consistently driving them at close to the lowest gain settings. I mean t's not like gain staging is tricky. There's essentially only one knob on the thing (the second one is a fine adjustment).
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Post by EmRR on Apr 27, 2018 14:16:27 GMT -6
But they arenāt hard to drive! This is what I do at my place all the time. You just have to understand them. Those guys never drove them the way people are trying to drive them now. I dunno - I started hearing distortion with most mics at +28 or +32 By the time I was ready to sell them I was consistently driving them at close to the lowest gain settings. I mean t's not like gain staging is tricky. There's essentially only one knob on the thing (the second one is a fine adjustment). Define 'most mics', and the source SPL in question. Did you use a 20dB pad up front? Almost all old tech of that era requires that in modern usage. I run all sorts of fixed gain 40dB tube and SS preamps. Most don't have modern headroom, max output is lower. They all usually have a 20dB pad to prevent input overload, and that is true even with the ones having a true interstage gain control. Because the input transformers themselves are 20-26dB, and they frequently clip unless there's a pad. So they are 20dB preamps in reality. And it's fine. Need more gain, use the makeup gain from a compressor or line amp after the fact. The console bus amp is supposed to be doing that part. Maybe there is something wrong with the product, I've no idea not having heard it. Maybe a lot of people just don't actually like working with vintage styled equipment, a very strong possibility.
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Post by roundbadge on Apr 27, 2018 16:44:33 GMT -6
Doesn't Chandler has the full rights to the Abbey Road Redd stuff? The redd pre I saw dizengoff made..yikes.the messy internal wiring really turned me off.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Apr 27, 2018 17:15:57 GMT -6
Doesn't Chandler has the full rights to the Abbey Road Redd stuff? The redd pre I saw dizengoff made..yikes.the messy internal wiring really turned me off. Yeah and I would not be surprised if that is part of what ended it, from what I heard from an old friend of Wadeās part of the deal with EMI is Chandler has to go after anybody who uses REDD, EMI, or Abbey Road like a miss treated Pit Bull (mine will just roll on his back and beg you to scratch his belly)!
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Post by hasbeen on Apr 27, 2018 18:32:15 GMT -6
Define 'most mics', and the source SPL in question. Did you use a 20dB pad up front? Almost all old tech of that era requires that in modern usage. I run all sorts of fixed gain 40dB tube and SS preamps. Most don't have modern headroom, max output is lower. They all usually have a 20dB pad to prevent input overload, and that is true even with the ones having a true interstage gain control. Because the input transformers themselves are 20-26dB, and they frequently clip unless there's a pad. So they are 20dB preamps in reality. And it's fine. Need more gain, use the makeup gain from a compressor or line amp after the fact. The console bus amp is supposed to be doing that part. Maybe there is something wrong with the product, I've no idea not having heard it. Maybe a lot of people just don't actually like working with vintage styled equipment, a very strong possibility. I am confused. I ideally should be using a 20db pad between for instance a U87 and a modern creation of a vintage preamp ?
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Post by M57 on Apr 27, 2018 18:37:06 GMT -6
I dunno - I started hearing distortion with most mics at +28 or +32 By the time I was ready to sell them I was consistently driving them at close to the lowest gain settings. I mean t's not like gain staging is tricky. There's essentially only one knob on the thing (the second one is a fine adjustment). Define 'most mics', and the source SPL in question. Did you use a 20dB pad up front? Almost all old tech of that era requires that in modern usage. No pad - Don't most folks plug the mic directly into their pre-amps? I mean, you would think that Matt at Dizengoff would have recommended a pad if it would enhance the performance. Most mics.. LDC: NT-5 and a handful of modern SDCs. Oh, and an SM7b at the time, which I would think wouldn't need a pad for anything.
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Post by EmRR on Apr 27, 2018 18:43:17 GMT -6
The SM7 is the only one I could say with confidence wouldn't need a pad....but it might if you put it close on snare drum. The others definitely would need a pad many times. You can't put a 0 to -10 mic signal into a 28dB preamp that overloads at +8 without it.
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Post by hasbeen on Apr 27, 2018 18:56:02 GMT -6
The SM7 is the only one I could say with confidence wouldn't need a pad....but it might if you put it close on snare drum. The others definitely would need a pad many times. You can't put a 0 to -10 mic signal into a 28dB preamp that overloads at +8 without it. Is this answer about the Dizengoff? Or I ideally should be using a 20db pad between for instance a U87 and other modern creations of a vintage preamp ? For instance I have a Tab V78M and a Mercury M72s. Both replicate a classic V72 preamp stock at a specific setting.
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Post by M57 on Apr 27, 2018 18:57:21 GMT -6
The SM7 is the only one I could say with confidence wouldn't need a pad....but it might if you put it close on snare drum. The others definitely would need a pad many times. You can't put a 0 to -10 mic signal into a 28dB preamp that overloads at +8 without it. I'm pretty sure I tried the pad and gave up on it.. Maybe to the point of not even bothering in later sessions. But I do remember not liking what I heard every time I tried it.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Apr 27, 2018 20:36:22 GMT -6
Iāve gotta use the pads on our V72ās anytime I have a source with anything above moderate level and close micing. Things can get nasty quick without it.
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Post by rob61 on Apr 28, 2018 5:46:45 GMT -6
The D4 has a 20db pad switch. Many times I can simply use the -10db pad on mics like the U87 which gets it in a friendlier range for acoustic sources.
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Post by EmRR on Apr 28, 2018 7:13:12 GMT -6
The SM7 is the only one I could say with confidence wouldn't need a pad....but it might if you put it close on snare drum. Ā The others definitely would need a pad many times. You can't put a 0 to -10 mic signal into a 28dB preamp that overloads at +8 without it. I'm pretty sure I tried the pad and gave up on it.. Maybe to the point of not even bothering in later sessions.Ā But I do remember not liking what I heard every time I tried it. A pad does what a pad does, no matter the preamp. You need it or you donāt.
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Post by EmRR on Apr 28, 2018 7:14:42 GMT -6
The SM7 is the only one I could say with confidence wouldn't need a pad....but it might if you put it close on snare drum. The others definitely would need a pad many times. You can't put a 0 to -10 mic signal into a 28dB preamp that overloads at +8 without it. Is this answer about the Dizengoff? Or I ideally should be using a 20db pad between for instance a U87 and other modern creations of a vintage preamp ? For instance I have a Tab V78M and a Mercury M72s. Both replicate a classic V72 preamp stock at a specific setting. Itās about whatever vintage design needs a pad, which is most before 1970. IF you hear fuzz, it needs a pad. It may sound different. So be it, that's a different decision tree.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 28, 2018 8:10:42 GMT -6
One can hope can't they Svart? The D4 had a wonderful combination of being very articulate and warm at the same time. There was a rich tone, but I could sing softly without worrying the words would get lost in the sauce, so I got a better performance that way. Unfortunately, I had to sell all my gear recently.
This had the D4 on vocal, acoustic guitar, and I think M57 tracked the piano and BV's with it too. I almost forgot, that's the cowboycoalminer on pedal steel!
https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/all-again-mix-9
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Post by M57 on Apr 28, 2018 8:25:07 GMT -6
One can hope can't they Svart? The D4 had a wonderful combination of being very articulate and warm at the same time. There was a rich tone, but I could sing softly without worrying the words would get lost in the sauce, so I got a better performance that way. Unfortunately, I had to sell all my gear recently. This had the D4 on vocal, acoustic guitar, and I think M57 tracked the piano and BV's with it too. I almost forgot, that's the cowboycoalminer on pedal steel! https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/all-again-mix-9Yeah, I'm pretty sure I used a pair of D4s for the piano on that.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 28, 2018 10:32:15 GMT -6
Sounds pretty damn good too, I think :-)
Also, that was the Blackspade UM-17 R ( or maybe B, I forget). That mic was so close to being a monster, I wish I could have had the patience to tweak it just a little bit more, but I gave up after trying a few capsules and other variations.
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Post by EmRR on Apr 29, 2018 13:15:38 GMT -6
i was using the compressor and found the gain staging very difficult to get right. the stereo link is completely pointless as well because of gain stagin issues. If you stereo link any ancient mono compressor, you have a lot of procedures to run through. I've linked quite a few. You have to do a dance between matching gain with a dual mono test tone, then dial in compression, then re-jigger the link balance to account for tube differences in each unit, then re-jigger the gain matching. Then you can put your actual stereo audio through them....and do it all again once you get a rough adjustment. The earliest stereo link types are like this too. It's the good old days. I doubt any two random modern Sta-levels/etc do any better with their link behaviors. All still points to the guy not writing the right informative manuals.
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Post by forgotteng on Apr 29, 2018 18:15:57 GMT -6
This is fascinating. I bought 2 864 comps in the early days and struggled to get them to sound good in stereo. I sold one and kept one. It seems the gentleman that bought it from me insisted that it was broke and had all sorts of problems and spent some money to get it "fixed" I was really surprised at this since I didn't notice any "brokenness" The dude never called me back to detail the problems he had. He wasn't necessarily blaming me but he sure wasn't happy.The one I kept I use quite a bit on bass. I just used it on a session today. It doesn't respond like my other comps but the glow and growl switches do something that works for me on some instruments.
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Post by gouge on Apr 30, 2018 8:27:17 GMT -6
i was using the compressor and found the gain staging very difficult to get right. the stereo link is completely pointless as well because of gain stagin issues. If you stereo link any ancient mono compressor, you have a lot of procedures to run through. I've linked quite a few. You have to do a dance between matching gain with a dual mono test tone, then dial in compression, then re-jigger the link balance to account for tube differences in each unit, then re-jigger the gain matching. Then you can put your actual stereo audio through them....and do it all again once you get a rough adjustment. The earliest stereo link types are like this too. It's the good old days. I doubt any two random modern Sta-levels/etc do any better with their link behaviors. All still points to the guy not writing the right informative manuals. well that's what I did and do. I do that on every session for all of my gear. I start with the channels and then the busses and then the master buss.
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Post by gouge on Apr 30, 2018 8:28:34 GMT -6
This is fascinating. I bought 2 864 comps in the early days and struggled to get them to sound good in stereo. I sold one and kept one. It seems the gentleman that bought it from me insisted that it was broke and had all sorts of problems and spent some money to get it "fixed" I was really surprised at this since I didn't notice any "brokenness" The dude never called me back to detail the problems he had. He wasn't necessarily blaming me but he sure wasn't happy.The one I kept I use quite a bit on bass. I just used it on a session today. It doesn't respond like my other comps but the glow and growl switches do something that works for me on some instruments. yes that's my take on it.. on some vocals it is also great. on bass it is very good indeed.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Apr 30, 2018 10:58:49 GMT -6
The Neumann mikes require being strapped for 50 Ohms with if I remember right, 50 Ohm series resistors on each leg in order to work properly with most U.S. tube preamps.
The nice thing about the high headroom 40 dB. preamps is that they often don't need pads so you can just plug in the mikes, pull down the kick fader and hit record.
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Post by Ward on Apr 30, 2018 11:38:54 GMT -6
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