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Post by stormymondays on Apr 19, 2018 13:08:48 GMT -6
Forgive the rather basic question! I need some gear recommendation to record “scratch” electric guitar while tracking drums, and keep my options open for reamping, in case something magical happens in the take.
I’m planning to use my Tech 21 Liverpool to get working sounds, and I would like to record that as well.
So, I guess I just need to plug my guitar into a good DI, feed the parallel out to the Tech 21, which will go into a different DI, and record two channels. Yes?
Which kind of DI would you recommend? Or how about plugging straight into a pre’s DI and mult the output or something?
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Post by indiehouse on Apr 19, 2018 14:02:24 GMT -6
Dude, talk to dandeurloo and get yerself a Zod DI. That thing rocks my socks. I use it all the time for that. |
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Post by EmRR on Apr 19, 2018 14:29:27 GMT -6
I'd usually go right into a tube preamp Hi-Z, direct to grid, for that job. Something like a BA-2, SA-70, or 6Q-1.
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Post by gouge on Apr 19, 2018 15:25:58 GMT -6
Creation audio mw1 is a great tool for what youve described, it also does reamping.
The impedance control is every bit of what makes it so good to use.
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Post by stormymondays on Apr 19, 2018 16:09:20 GMT -6
Thanks for the great replies! My REDDI is going to be tied up for bass, and my Tree Audio Branch II will be in use too, so no tube goodness for me, alas. But I'll keep it in mind! I might get a ZOD DI sometime in the future though. Not sure if it does 240v, by the way. I've just realized I have a Fulltone True Path ABY which is pretty great. It has switchable buffers as well as a 1:1 transformer on the B output. I could use that to split the signal, and quite likely buffer it, although I'd still be going unbalanced into the interface preamps (all the good stuff is in use for the drums). And if I'm buffering, what about Hi Z? I need to experiment with that. I'm out of rack space, so no dedicated guitar interface racks for me  I could also bite the bullet and get a Radial J48, which are quite expensive here in Europe. |
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Post by Guitar on Apr 19, 2018 16:53:29 GMT -6
If you have Apollo I would recommend the UAD Buxom Betty amp sim, it's the best one I've used to date I think. Also works in real time if you are plugged into an Apollo.
J48 is a good idea, a nice direct box in general.
You can also think about direct input of guitar amp heads themselves. The Two Notes Torpedo Reload allows silent recording. The Bugera PS1 allows recording at an attenuated volume in the room. Both are highly recommended from me.
Then you would use an IR loader like Two Notes Wall Of Sound to add your cabinet impulses. Something like OwnHammer IRs for example are great.
You would be surprised that you might actually get a legitimate guitar sound with some of these methods.
Or just go for the re-amp when the playing is done with your regular gear.
I can think of sessions gone by where this would have saved a lot of trouble and probably improved the results. Lots of great "solutions" these days.
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Post by Quint on Apr 19, 2018 17:53:18 GMT -6
Thanks for the great replies! My REDDI is going to be tied up for bass, and my Tree Audio Branch II will be in use too, so no tube goodness for me, alas. But I'll keep it in mind! I might get a ZOD DI sometime in the future though. Not sure if it does 240v, by the way. I've just realized I have a Fulltone True Path ABY which is pretty great. It has switchable buffers as well as a 1:1 transformer on the B output. I could use that to split the signal, and quite likely buffer it, although I'd still be going unbalanced into the interface preamps (all the good stuff is in use for the drums). And if I'm buffering, what about Hi Z? I need to experiment with that. I'm out of rack space, so no dedicated guitar interface racks for me I could also bite the bullet and get a Radial J48, which are quite expensive here in Europe. That's why I like the Radial Twin City for splitting. Active buffering, impedance control, no ground loops and no signal loss. Then you can run both hiz outputs to whatever DI/amp/pedal you want on each output. Run your naked "keeper" track into the best DI you have available and run the other output into the Liverpool or whatever else you want and then into a cheaper DI so that you at least have an approximate sound for monitoring while tracking as well as an approximate recorded sound to listen to during playback of the drums. Then you can always reamp the "keeper" track later. |
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Post by svart on Apr 20, 2018 7:12:29 GMT -6
I'm trying out a new system which seems to be working. I take a DI of the clean guitar, allow that to pass through to the pedals, then take another DI, and allow that to pass through to the amp where I record it.
Once mix time comes around, I generally find that the guitarists usually dialed in too much effect, so I'm able to either reamp the clean DI through different or less effects, or reamp the original effects with a different amp. I can also blend the 3 original tracks.
I'm starting to do this with bass as well and it seems to work well.
Cuts out needing to retrack stuff due to the amp or effects not fitting the mix.
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Post by stormymondays on Apr 21, 2018 3:01:47 GMT -6
Well I did some tests yesterday. My Klark Teknik DN 200 DI (which apparently is being discontinued) bested the instrument outputs of my RME Fireface 802 and Focusrite Clarett Octopre. Good tone, no noise. It didn't best the REDDI, but it was a lot closer to it than to the interfaces. It didn't best the Tree Audio either. Life is good!
Since that box is going to be tied up with the keyboards, I've decided to get a Little Labs Redeye 3D Phantom box and be done with it. I get a nice DI with a nice transformer and a great reamp interface too, which can also be used for guitar pedals at mix time. I could do all this with my reamp box and DIs but this is simple and elegant. I'm looking forward to it!
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Post by schmalzy on Apr 25, 2018 8:02:00 GMT -6
I'm trying out a new system which seems to be working. I take a DI of the clean guitar, allow that to pass through to the pedals, then take another DI, and allow that to pass through to the amp where I record it. Once mix time comes around, I generally find that the guitarists usually dialed in too much effect, so I'm able to either reamp the clean DI through different or less effects, or reamp the original effects with a different amp. I can also blend the 3 original tracks. I'm starting to do this with bass as well and it seems to work well. Cuts out needing to retrack stuff due to the amp or effects not fitting the mix. I've been doing something similar in an effort to solve the problem of guitarists that want to hear more effect wetness live and in their playback than I'd see appropriate to achieve the vision of the actual record. I'm basically recording three things: 1. DI (for editing/reamping if required) 2. Mic(s) on the dry amp 3. Mic(s) sent out of the console on an aux send through a reamp box to all the time-based effects for the wet-only sound I'm recording the wet with my intended blend of the mics (if I've used more than one) so the tone shouldn't be SOOOO different than the finished tone in the mix. I'll definitely be EQing and compressing that differently than the dry signal anyway so it's not critical to get the blend right. Plus I can hard-pan the effects opposite the dry tracks in their cue mix so they get a nice, big, wet stereo image while they're tracking. |
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Post by svart on Apr 25, 2018 8:17:51 GMT -6
I'm trying out a new system which seems to be working. I take a DI of the clean guitar, allow that to pass through to the pedals, then take another DI, and allow that to pass through to the amp where I record it. Once mix time comes around, I generally find that the guitarists usually dialed in too much effect, so I'm able to either reamp the clean DI through different or less effects, or reamp the original effects with a different amp. I can also blend the 3 original tracks. I'm starting to do this with bass as well and it seems to work well. Cuts out needing to retrack stuff due to the amp or effects not fitting the mix. I've been doing something similar in an effort to solve the problem of guitarists that want to hear more effect wetness live and in their playback than I'd see appropriate to achieve the vision of the actual record. I'm basically recording three things: 1. DI (for editing/reamping if required) 2. Mic(s) on the dry amp 3. Mic(s) sent out of the console on an aux send through a reamp box to all the time-based effects for the wet-only sound I'm recording the wet with my intended blend of the mics (if I've used more than one) so the tone shouldn't be SOOOO different than the finished tone in the mix. I'll definitely be EQing and compressing that differently than the dry signal anyway so it's not critical to get the blend right. Plus I can hard-pan the effects opposite the dry tracks in their cue mix so they get a nice, big, wet stereo image while they're tracking. One of the things I'm going to experiment with is to use an amp simulator plugin on the monitoring for the artist, so that they hear something similar to what the finished product would be, but while only tracking clean DI and effected DI for reamping later. This way I can track everyone at the same time with them hearing something close to their sound, but without the amps since I don't have isolation booths or a large room. Nobody seems to want to do the per-person tracking anymore. Most everyone wants to do it as a group, which I totally understand. This would allow me to do that in a small room. |
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Apr 25, 2018 11:51:49 GMT -6
If you can find one the old Uptown active splitter is one of those boxes that once you have it you will wonder how you lived without it!
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Post by bram on Apr 25, 2018 12:34:37 GMT -6
Another option is Little Labs Red Eye 3D Phantom. I've used it just the way you describe: Tracking drums + Electric guitar DI in the same room.
I plug the guitar in to the Red Eye which splits the signal into two channels: 1 into an Apollo Unison Amp emulation (which the guitarist hears in his headphones) and 1 into a clean DI for later re-amping.
When you're ready to re-amp, you can use the same box, just route appropriately.
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Post by svart on Apr 25, 2018 13:11:17 GMT -6
Another option is Little Labs Red Eye 3D Phantom. I've used it just the way you describe: Tracking drums + Electric guitar DI in the same room. I plug the guitar in to the Red Eye which splits the signal into two channels: 1 into an Apollo Unison Amp emulation (which the guitarist hears in his headphones) and 1 into a clean DI for later re-amping. When you're ready to re-amp, you can use the same box, just route appropriately. If you're talking to me, I have a RedEye already. And 3x countryman 85's. Love them all. Sounds like you're doing close to what I want to try, but I don't use UA stuff so I'd need to find another amp sim with low latency. |
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Post by bram on Apr 25, 2018 13:31:56 GMT -6
More of a general reply to the theme of the thread. Looks like I missed that stormy decided to go for a RedEye. Good choice!
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Post by stormymondays on Apr 25, 2018 14:33:00 GMT -6
svart get a SansAmp and do it with no latency and a pretty good sound that could even end on the record! The Tech 21 Liverpool (Vox style) and Blonde (Fender style) are fantastic. They are only $170 new.
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Post by formatcyes on Apr 25, 2018 15:55:16 GMT -6
One of the things I'm going to experiment with is to use an amp simulator plugin on the monitoring for the artist, so that they hear something similar to what the finished product would be, but while only tracking clean DI and effected DI for reamping later. I have tried plugin sims they have to much latency. Unless you can get the latency under 2ms you will effect the performance to much. The artist may not notice a first but will struggle with the feel. |
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Post by Ward on Apr 25, 2018 17:28:09 GMT -6
The Avalon U5 is an option, as is the countryman into a tube preamp. Make sure you get everything in there averaging -18dbFS
Try not to record with additional compression that will negatively affect the re-amping process later.
JMHO
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Post by schmalzy on Apr 26, 2018 8:17:32 GMT -6
One of the things I'm going to experiment with is to use an amp simulator plugin on the monitoring for the artist, so that they hear something similar to what the finished product would be, but while only tracking clean DI and effected DI for reamping later. I have tried plugin sims they have to much latency. Unless you can get the latency under 2ms you will effect the performance to much. The artist may not notice a first but will struggle with the feel. This is pretty interesting to me. It's a thing I've also noticed on occasion. 2ms is the time it takes for sound to travel 2-ish feet. I've worked with a lot of guitar players - and I've heard of a lot of guitar players working with big-name guys who also work this way - who prefer to track their guitars standing in the control room playing everything back through the mains. They've DEFINITELY got more than 2 ms of delay between the monitors and their ears. When playing live (and not using in-ear monitors), guitar players are often standing more than 2 feet from their amps and more than 2 feet from their monitors. Way more than 2 ms of delay no matter where they are on stage. Some of what people refer to as the best sounding stuff in recording history was made with people in a room and no headphones. I'd be curious if the engineers at that time moved players closer to and further from sound sources in order to get them to groove. I wonder if Bob Olhsson, johneppstein, or any of the other folks who worked in larger rooms a while back (I don't ever remember who around here did what when and where) have any insight into this? I've also come across many people who have a hard time playing an amp sim (or a soft synth) and grooving. I wonder why that is? What's the difference between 3ms of round-trip latency being problematic in the studio but those same people standing 10 feet from their amp live or at rehearsal have no problem with the feel? A thing I've been doing lately is - for instrumentalists who are rushing the beat in a way that doesn't work with the song - is putting them 8-14 feet back from the monitors in my room and recording them that way. Using distance to literally make them hear the beat a little later than the DAW says it is. I see varying success with it. I think part of the time the non-success is just me working with a talent pool that doesn't always have virtuosic command of the groove...or are just downright unskilled players! |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Apr 26, 2018 8:45:03 GMT -6
The thing to remember is DI’s have their own tone, especially passive transformer based DI’s also the built in DI on many preamps are more of an after though than a design priority.
The guys I know who have the best direct results have a decent selection of DI’s and put as much thought into it as mic choice!
Unless it’s a tone you want avoid cheap Transformer DI’s !!! I remover opening up some noname DI’s over the years and either finding microscopic transformers or that they were often y cables with a ground lift!
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Post by svart on Apr 26, 2018 11:10:39 GMT -6
svart get a SansAmp and do it with no latency and a pretty good sound that could even end on the record! The Tech 21 Liverpool (Vox style) and Blonde (Fender style) are fantastic. They are only $170 new. I have a bass sansamp right now for a little more middle distortion, but it's not for everything. I had an older guitar sansamp and I ended up selling as it didn't really get me where I was going. I typically work with bands who end up using tons of effects, so it would be better to have some kind of sim with tons of effects and such too. As someone else points out, I think the latency will kill me no matter what. I can run plugs in a VST wrapper on my DSP card, but there will still be some latency I'm sure. |
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Post by notneeson on Apr 26, 2018 13:18:31 GMT -6
For a variety of scenarios I'll track scratch/guide guitars through an amp sim on my TDM rig. That way if we get something we can easily re-amp.
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Post by schmalzy on Apr 26, 2018 13:33:22 GMT -6
svart get a SansAmp and do it with no latency and a pretty good sound that could even end on the record! The Tech 21 Liverpool (Vox style) and Blonde (Fender style) are fantastic. They are only $170 new. I typically work with bands who end up using tons of effects, so it would be better to have some kind of sim with tons of effects and such too. As someone else points out, I think the latency will kill me no matter what. I'm about to say a dirty word in the audio world: Line 6. I use my PodXT Live for stuff like you're describing. When they need to monitor all their stuff and need a sound that's close enough but I know I'm just going to reamp it - that's what I'm using. Similarly, I think this is why people like the Avid ElevenRack and all the Kemper/AxeFX stuff. Apparently the new Line 6 (gasp!) guitar amp thing (called "Helix") is pretty good and comes in a number of size/cost/usage formats. |
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Post by drbill on Apr 26, 2018 14:08:19 GMT -6
Which kind of DI would you recommend? ZOD ID DI. Tube. Fat. Gorgeous. |
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Post by Guitar on Apr 26, 2018 14:21:52 GMT -6
If you get one of those Two Notes Torpedo boxes (starting at around $250) you can plug in a spare amp head and silently record it, for monitoring, or for adding cabinet IR in the mix. You don't even have to connect a guitar cabinet, the Torpedo has a 4, 8, or 16 ohm reactive load built in.
The more expensive ones cointain reamps and stuff, IR loaders within the hardware, etc. And there's the new UA Ox Amp Top Box but that's a spendy option.
That's probably going to sound better than any POD or SansAmp. It's opening a new world for me.
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