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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 19, 2018 9:23:29 GMT -6
Thanks Svart, I don't remember if I had time to track with your svartbox, but it was definitely a clearer sound when compared to the silveface Apollo.
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Post by illacov on Apr 19, 2018 12:39:39 GMT -6
Svart is it particularly challenging to utilize a transformer in lieu of the anti-aliasing filter? Aside from sourcing the appropriate transformer, what other issues present themselves? Converter quality? Thanks -L. Transformer AS the anti-aliasing filter? You'd want to use it as the input matching, as well as the gain matching for the input too I suppose, right? Sure you could do that. You'd need to characterize your chosen transformer for rolloff to match your anti-aliasing curve. You'd then tweak the loading a little to minimize ringing and dial in your rolloff a little better. Transformers are inherently easy to use with A/D converters, and I use them all the time in my RF work. The issue that I see is that the "transformer sound" is not necessarily inherent to the transformer itself. There are super clean transformers that don't impart much sonic footprint, and there are ones that do, and those sonics are from the components of the signal that people tend to try to avoid, like THD, ringing, nonlinearity of phase/impedance/etc.. So it'd be shooting yourself in the foot to design a super clean converter, and then try to dirty it up again, much like some folks are talking about the "Burl sound" being a bit much to have on everything, all the time. I'd still prefer to design a secondary box with some kind of variable transformer distortion method so that folks could plug that box in when they wanted, and unplug when they didn't. I did something in that vein already. But having listened to Zulu and Burl together vs Zulu without Burl, I always preferred Zulu with Burl. There's something to that interaction which is reflected as well when Zulu goes into a passive DI or Transformer coupled microphone preamp. I honestly detest the sound of digital converters. I've always heard great things about the svartbox from my good friend Dane. So do tell about this use of the transformer in lieu of the anti-aliasing filter. Does this mean that you DONT need anti-aliasing filters technically? Is there a way to remove them? Via firmware or physical mods? Thanks -L.
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Post by notneeson on Apr 19, 2018 14:53:09 GMT -6
Having used, but not owning either, I could see a strong argument for using a Silver Bullet (I personally do line in on a Neve clone) into a clean AD for the versatility vs. shelling out for the Bomber.
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Post by svart on Apr 20, 2018 7:41:44 GMT -6
Transformer AS the anti-aliasing filter? You'd want to use it as the input matching, as well as the gain matching for the input too I suppose, right? Sure you could do that. You'd need to characterize your chosen transformer for rolloff to match your anti-aliasing curve. You'd then tweak the loading a little to minimize ringing and dial in your rolloff a little better. Transformers are inherently easy to use with A/D converters, and I use them all the time in my RF work. The issue that I see is that the "transformer sound" is not necessarily inherent to the transformer itself. There are super clean transformers that don't impart much sonic footprint, and there are ones that do, and those sonics are from the components of the signal that people tend to try to avoid, like THD, ringing, nonlinearity of phase/impedance/etc.. So it'd be shooting yourself in the foot to design a super clean converter, and then try to dirty it up again, much like some folks are talking about the "Burl sound" being a bit much to have on everything, all the time. I'd still prefer to design a secondary box with some kind of variable transformer distortion method so that folks could plug that box in when they wanted, and unplug when they didn't. I did something in that vein already. But having listened to Zulu and Burl together vs Zulu without Burl, I always preferred Zulu with Burl. There's something to that interaction which is reflected as well when Zulu goes into a passive DI or Transformer coupled microphone preamp. I honestly detest the sound of digital converters. I've always heard great things about the svartbox from my good friend Dane. So do tell about this use of the transformer in lieu of the anti-aliasing filter. Does this mean that you DONT need anti-aliasing filters technically? Is there a way to remove them? Via firmware or physical mods? Thanks -L. Glad to hear Dane likes it! I tried to make it a neutral sounding as possible while still being articulate so that people could color up the sound as much as they wanted with external gear. When you use things like the Burl, you're stuck with that sound forever and that's something that I personally don't care for unless it's what I need right then and there. That's also why I don't try to explain what the sound of my converter is when folks say things like "it sounds better/worse than this other product", I'd rather explain what it does in technical terms, because the "sound" is going to depend on all the devices being used with it. In the original thread I have a lot of the testing results, critiques from others, replies from myself, and all sorts of other information. It's a long read though! Anyway, transformers usually roll off quickly above their specified highest pass-band frequency. If you pick one with rolloff near where you want your anti-aliasing filter to be, you can usually get away with no active filtering and just use the transformer rolloff and maybe some matching components to form your completed filter. Since your A/D will have a medium impedance in the range of 1K-5K (most likely for delta-sigma), you'd need to be careful of your turns ratio. You don't want it to be too high or you start running into issues with noise and wasted dynamic range, but you need it to be something that won't reflect back less than 10K-ish to the inputs either. The transformer center-tap will be the common mode reference point for your A/D as well but you need to be careful of the VCOM output current specs as this point is usually very low and might need to be actively buffered. Of course I'm speaking from the position of using RF transformers for these types of things, so it's more structured since everything is designed around 50ohm impedances. With audio gear it's harder since there is no common spec for all parts to work around, so matching and testing is more important in the audio realm.
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Post by trakworxmastering on May 16, 2018 21:38:44 GMT -6
Yes...Please share your experiences with the B2 ADC/DAC and other Burl products as well! Loooooooong time Burl user - early adopter here. My B2 Bomber ADC is serial #0004. My B80 Mothership is the first one to leave Burl HQ, also serial #0004. 20 ADCs and 24 DACs in there. I have two B2 Bomber DACs (one feeds my mastering chain, one for monitoring). I have a B32 Vancouver summing mixer. I have 4 Burl B1 preamps and 2 B1D preamps. I think the only Burl unit I don't own is the Monitor controller. Yet. Lots of forest green in this control room! Lots of experience with this gear that I love. Feel free to ask me any questions you may have. Cheers, J~ Attachment Deleted
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Post by Johnkenn on May 16, 2018 21:45:12 GMT -6
Yes...Please share your experiences with the B2 ADC/DAC and other Burl products as well! Loooooooong time Burl user - early adopter here. My B2 Bomber ADC is serial #0004. My B80 Mothership is the first one to leave Burl HQ, also serial #0004. 20 ADCs and 24 DACs in there. I have two B2 Bomber DACs (one feeds my mastering chain, one for monitoring). I have a B32 Vancouver summing mixer. I have 4 Burl B1 preamps and 2 B1D preamps. I think the only Burl unit I don't own is the Monitor controller. Yet. Lots of forest green in this control room! Lots of experience with this gear that I love. Feel free to ask me any questions you may have. Cheers, J~ View AttachmentHow hairy are your masters? I keed. Is that for tracking or do you use that in mastering too?
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Post by trakworxmastering on May 16, 2018 21:55:27 GMT -6
Send me a mix and I'll show you how great it sounds with Rogaine on it! LOL
Yes I use the B2 ADC for mastering all the time. Literally thousands of masters made with it and never a single complaint about the things that people imagine would be complained about. I like the tone and depth it captures. And the built in attenuator is handy when gain structuring my analog outboard in certain ways. Using the attenuators on the B2 DAC and the B2 ADC I have a ton of convenient control over how hot I drive my tubes and such.
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Post by roundbadge on Dec 17, 2018 12:22:54 GMT -6
Finally got my Cranesong Hedd Quantum last week. Sounds great. I still think the Burl is a cool box.its just always changed the mix a bit even hitting it lightly.it kinda thickens and adds weight rounds transients a tad which I dig for individual tracking situations with the mothership but not with full mixes.I already have loads of cool colored outboard boxes already running on the mix buss.i just don’t need another layer of transformer vibe after.using the B2 for some years now I’ve been wanting a more transparent honest and still musical mix capture and this does that beautifully. The hedd sounds closer to what’s coming off the console.more natural open wider and presents more depth information,detail. On full mixes so far not feeling the need for the dsp stuff cause I’m using the black box hg2 real pentode triode thing and various tube transformer things aka Unfairchild etc The clock is great too but I’m still preferring everything clocked to the Grimm CC1. The DA is the cream on top.clean natural open.perfect monitoring DA. The Burl I always felt like I was “mixing into it” as opposed to the hedd where I’m just mixing with a console and getting exactly what’s coming off it again. My Burl B2 has left the rack and is for sale.
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 17, 2018 16:59:08 GMT -6
Finally got my Cranesong Hedd Quantum last week. Sounds great. I still think the Burl is a cool box.its just always changed the mix a bit even hitting it lightly.it kinda thickens and adds weight rounds transients a tad which I dig for individual tracking situations with the mothership but not with full mixes.I already have loads of cool colored outboard boxes already running on the mix buss.i just don’t need another layer of transformer vibe after.using the B2 for some years now I’ve been wanting a more transparent honest and still musical mix capture and this does that beautifully. The hedd sounds closer to what’s coming off the console.more natural open wider and presents more depth information,detail. On full mixes so far not feeling the need for the dsp stuff cause I’m using the black box hg2 real pentode triode thing and various tube transformer things aka Unfairchild etc The clock is great too but I’m still preferring everything clocked to the Grimm CC1. The DA is the cream on top.clean natural open.perfect monitoring DA. The Burl I always felt like I was “mixing into it” as opposed to the hedd where I’m just mixing with a console and getting exactly what’s coming off it again. My Burl B2 has left the rack and is for sale. I want to be you when I grow up.
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Post by roundbadge on Dec 17, 2018 21:56:51 GMT -6
Finally got my Cranesong Hedd Quantum last week. Sounds great. I still think the Burl is a cool box.its just always changed the mix a bit even hitting it lightly.it kinda thickens and adds weight rounds transients a tad which I dig for individual tracking situations with the mothership but not with full mixes.I already have loads of cool colored outboard boxes already running on the mix buss.i just don’t need another layer of transformer vibe after.using the B2 for some years now I’ve been wanting a more transparent honest and still musical mix capture and this does that beautifully. The hedd sounds closer to what’s coming off the console.more natural open wider and presents more depth information,detail. On full mixes so far not feeling the need for the dsp stuff cause I’m using the black box hg2 real pentode triode thing and various tube transformer things aka Unfairchild etc The clock is great too but I’m still preferring everything clocked to the Grimm CC1. The DA is the cream on top.clean natural open.perfect monitoring DA. The Burl I always felt like I was “mixing into it” as opposed to the hedd where I’m just mixing with a console and getting exactly what’s coming off it again. My Burl B2 has left the rack and is for sale. I want to be you when I grow up. Silliness!!
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Post by roundbadge on Dec 17, 2018 22:13:03 GMT -6
oh also I'll have the Dangerous AD+ here to compare on weds. can it be that much better than this?I'm staying open minded. but I already like the fact that that the Hedd is full AD/DA in a single rackspace. and a green light..pretty!
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Post by jcoutu1 on Dec 17, 2018 22:14:58 GMT -6
oh also I'll have the Dangerous AD+ here to compare on weds. can it be that much better than this?I'm staying open minded. but I already like the fact that that the Hedd is full AD/DA in a single rackspace. and a green light..pretty! What do you record/mix?
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 17, 2018 22:19:35 GMT -6
oh also I'll have the Dangerous AD+ here to compare on weds. can it be that much better than this?I'm staying open minded. but I already like the fact that that the Hedd is full AD/DA in a single rackspace. and a green light..pretty! Is the Solaris the same without the AD?
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Post by roundbadge on Dec 17, 2018 22:23:05 GMT -6
oh also I'll have the Dangerous AD+ here to compare on weds. can it be that much better than this?I'm staying open minded. but I already like the fact that that the Hedd is full AD/DA in a single rackspace. and a green light..pretty! What do you record/mix? lately mostly rock/ indie rock to tv music stuff.some jazz and pop.just did a film thing w/ Kamasi Washington for the Smithsonian. main income $ comes from the tv/film world.
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Post by roundbadge on Dec 17, 2018 22:25:50 GMT -6
oh also I'll have the Dangerous AD+ here to compare on weds. can it be that much better than this?I'm staying open minded. but I already like the fact that that the Hedd is full AD/DA in a single rackspace. and a green light..pretty! Is the Solaris the same without the AD? I believe so yes.interesting I don't see word clock I/O on it.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,976
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Post by ericn on Dec 17, 2018 22:26:23 GMT -6
lately mostly rock/ indie rock to tv music stuff.some jazz and pop.just did a film thing w/ Kamasi Washington for the Smithsonian. main income $ comes from the tv/film world. Wait, there are still people paying money for music not for Film / video?
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Post by jeremygillespie on Dec 17, 2018 22:29:33 GMT -6
oh also I'll have the Dangerous AD+ here to compare on weds. can it be that much better than this?I'm staying open minded. but I already like the fact that that the Hedd is full AD/DA in a single rackspace. and a green light..pretty! Would love to hear your thoughts comparing the Hedd to the Lavry Gold if you’ve had that opportunity!
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Post by roundbadge on Dec 17, 2018 22:35:23 GMT -6
lately mostly rock/ indie rock to tv music stuff.some jazz and pop.just did a film thing w/ Kamasi Washington for the Smithsonian. main income $ comes from the tv/film world. Wait, there are still people paying money for music not for Film / video? hah I do lot of bands with no money!friends turd polishing is a specialty lol. advertising/commercials is currently where its at for me money wise.
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Post by roundbadge on Dec 17, 2018 22:37:56 GMT -6
oh also I'll have the Dangerous AD+ here to compare on weds. can it be that much better than this?I'm staying open minded. but I already like the fact that that the Hedd is full AD/DA in a single rackspace. and a green light..pretty! Would love to hear your thoughts comparing the Hedd to the Lavry Gold if you’ve had that opportunity! I've only had the Hedd since Friday.if anyone wants to loan a gold for comparison though! are they still expensive? oh nevermind I just looked $$$
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Post by guitfiddler on Dec 19, 2018 10:34:36 GMT -6
oh also I'll have the Dangerous AD+ here to compare on weds. can it be that much better than this?I'm staying open minded. but I already like the fact that that the Hedd is full AD/DA in a single rackspace. and a green light..pretty! Cant wait to hear your thoughts...
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Post by roundbadge on Dec 20, 2018 21:09:41 GMT -6
Today testing the Cranesong HEDD Quantum next to the Dangerous AD+ and Convert 2 DA. interesting stuff.they're both really good. to my ears the Hedd is a little more natural relaxed and transparent.nice spatial thing around different elements especially in the lows,low mids.everything seems a bit more floaty. by comparison the Dangerous is slightly tighter.elements sound a little more focused and grounded in their respective spatial placement.like you can pick them out a little more easily.perhaps that translates to a slight bit more attitude and excitement BUT maybe a very very slight decrease in front to back depth and separation in the lower stuff.guitars and vocals display a tiny bit of sheen color focus compared to the Hedd.I really like the way vocals represent through the Dangerous.subtle but I'm hearing it when A/B'd. I could be way off but for my initial thoughts,gut reactions and taste I'm thinking the Hedd would be hard to beat for jazz,acoustic,light pop,classical things. the Dangerous for rock,hip hop,electronic.more aggressive stuff. Also I'm leaning towards preferring both clocked to the Grimm CC1. haven't gotten into comparing the processing yet. there are elements I like in both...this is gonna a harder decision than I expected
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Post by guitfiddler on Dec 23, 2018 13:52:38 GMT -6
Today testing the Cranesong HEDD Quantum next to the Dangerous AD+ and Convert 2 DA. interesting stuff.they're both really good. to my ears the Hedd is a little more natural relaxed and transparent.nice spatial thing around different elements especially in the lows,low mids.everything seems a bit more floaty. by comparison the Dangerous is slightly tighter.elements sound a little more focused and grounded in their respective spatial placement.like you can pick them out a little more easily.perhaps that translates to a slight bit more attitude and excitement BUT maybe a very very slight decrease in front to back depth and separation in the lower stuff.guitars and vocals display a tiny bit of sheen color focus compared to the Hedd.I really like the way vocals represent through the Dangerous.subtle but I'm hearing it when A/B'd. I could be way off but for my initial thoughts,gut reactions and taste I'm thinking the Hedd would be hard to beat for jazz,acoustic,light pop,classical things. the Dangerous for rock,hip hop,electronic.more aggressive stuff. Also I'm leaning towards preferring both clocked to the Grimm CC1. haven't gotten into comparing the processing yet. there are elements I like in both...this is gonna a harder decision than I expected So, let me translate, what you’re actually saying is you need both? Lol
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