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Post by tasteliketape on Mar 10, 2018 11:44:11 GMT -6
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Post by M57 on Mar 10, 2018 12:11:21 GMT -6
I watched the video - and I still don't understand what it does. Does it really "fix" phase related artifacts that are the result of the placement of multiple mics? Transparently? That's not really an EQ thing, is it? Can you describe what you like about it, or possibly what kind of plugin is it similar to?
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 11, 2018 16:00:46 GMT -6
I read the boilerplate and it scares me. If they're being at all straight this could do incredible damage. I don't buy the idea of a computer making artistic decisions for me and I distrust the ability of a bunch of developers with primarily scientific backgrounds to make automatic decisions concerning my music. I'm also constitutionally opposed to the idea of having machines "clean up" mistakes in recording technique. That's handing over creative aspects that are the purvey of the humnan to a machine because the human is too lazy to deal with those things himself. And that is another giant step toward the homogenization of music.
They're also extremely vague to opaque in telling us what it actually is doing. I don't like that at all. And I'm extremely opposed to the concept of "automatic EQ", or any other cybertnetic usurpation of artistic choice. And that BS about "100s of EQ changes per second" - WTF?
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Post by jcoutu1 on Mar 11, 2018 19:18:11 GMT -6
I read the boilerplate and it scares me. If they're being at all straight this could do incredible damage. I don't buy the idea of a computer making artistic decisions for me and I distrust the ability of a bunch of developers with primarily scientific backgrounds to make automatic decisions concerning my music. I'm also constitutionally opposed to the idea of having machines "clean up" mistakes in recording technique. That's handing over creative aspects that are the purvey of the humnan to a machine because the human is too lazy to deal with those things himself. And that is another giant step toward the homogenization of music. They're also extremely vague to opaque in telling us what it actually is doing. I don't like that at all. And I'm extremely opposed to the concept of "automatic EQ", or any other cybertnetic usurpation of artistic choice. And that BS about "100s of EQ changes per second" - WTF? I can't believe I'm saying this, but I agree with everything you just said. |
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Mar 11, 2018 20:00:09 GMT -6
I read the boilerplate and it scares me. If they're being at all straight this could do incredible damage. I don't buy the idea of a computer making artistic decisions for me and I distrust the ability of a bunch of developers with primarily scientific backgrounds to make automatic decisions concerning my music. I'm also constitutionally opposed to the idea of having machines "clean up" mistakes in recording technique. That's handing over creative aspects that are the purvey of the humnan to a machine because the human is too lazy to deal with those things himself. And that is another giant step toward the homogenization of music. They're also extremely vague to opaque in telling us what it actually is doing. I don't like that at all. And I'm extremely opposed to the concept of "automatic EQ", or any other cybertnetic usurpation of artistic choice. And that BS about "100s of EQ changes per second" - WTF? Face it we the audio professional are no longer the target customer, much more money in a plug-in you can’t fuck up with, it’s now the bedroom producer! So sad! |
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Post by tasteliketape on Mar 11, 2018 23:27:42 GMT -6
Of course it would totally be fucking crazy and amateurish to use one tool that does what you were going to do with several tools and give you the same results in less time
Sure as fuck wouldn’t want that or even try it .
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Mar 12, 2018 1:47:15 GMT -6
How do you feel about Izotope's latest plugins, then? that stuff is basically audio AI
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Post by matt@IAA on Mar 12, 2018 4:08:00 GMT -6
I know that Gullfoss is really frickin big waterfall in Iceland. Is that helpful?
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Post by M57 on Mar 12, 2018 5:52:29 GMT -6
Now let's play nice boys. If I fall asleep in my home studio, does that make it a bedroom? ..and if the software writes the song for me, should I give up writing songs? We can have those debates on another thread. On the other hand, the question of whether or not there's voodoo in the code is a valid one. That's more along the lines of the kinds of concerns I have with these more innovative products. I want to understand what thye're doing, but ultimately I agree with tasteliketape , if it takes me where I want to go, either better or more efficiently - I'm in. tasteliketape are you familiar with soothe? Is it anything like that? ..or is it more like a multi-band compressor but with hundreds of bands (I.e., why do they call it an EQ) ? How would you describe what it does? What do you use it on? Is it transparent? ..do you use it subtly or aggressively? |
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Post by viciousbliss on Mar 12, 2018 6:56:02 GMT -6
Most impressive. Moreso if it solves all those problems will little tweaking from the user. I will have to try the PC version when it's available. There's definitely an expiration date for audio engineers and most jobs, probably before 2029 if Kurzweil's predictions are remotely accurate. There's already some cyberneticish implant to treat Parkinson's. The trade off being money and its equivalents being less and less necessary. In a lot of ways, the consumer has already made so many audio people obsolete. Once Napster came out it showed that most people would listen to the same songs over and over in substandard quality if it meant music would be free and convenient. Bands and labels started responding to this philosophy too. As time has gone on they've opted for quantity over quality, whatever made things cheaper and faster to produce. Post-2002 is where I've always felt the decline started for Rock, Pop, and Metal. The human element has been disappearing from music gradually for quite a while. There's not a lot of incentive for an unestablished artist to invest in their craft and hire someone to create some grand sound design. It's not even possible to find band members a lot of the time because everyone's tastes are so fragmented. Without an incentive to form groups and compromise, creative people need ways to generate a band. We should be seeing more products of this nature sooner than later. I'm definitely curious how long we have til we reach the tipping point where what we have now looks primitive by comparison. Most plugins will probably have AI type features built into them like this Gullfoss at some point. Then the DAW. It will get to the point where the user is only needing to provide basic instructions to the DAW and AI will do the rest. I could see there being sort of blank slate virtual instruments that take on the sound of their counterparts on existing albums once a scan of the cd is done. That could be done with other aspects too, like eq settings, saturation, compression, etc.
The next 5-10 years will potentially see some pretty radical changes. Home computing is finally showing big gains from year to year and I'd be surprised if it slows down at all. I think these new Ryzens are supposed to be significantly faster. Gains made from year to year will probably get bigger. Some other company may introduce home computers beyond what Intel and AMD are doing now. For hardware, I think it will get into the territory of 3d printed stuff and people putting it together themselves before something else does it for them. Eventually hardware will be obsolete. Analog modeling will inevitably reach the point of being equivalent given how close it is now. All we can really do now is hang on for the ride I suppose.
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Post by EmRR on Mar 12, 2018 8:24:39 GMT -6
Might as well have kept using the SM57 and the Tascam cassette 4 track, since the future will be able to fix it all. Supposedly. Not.
This is what the hifi nut jobs dream of for their stereo systems, so they can "de-master" all the damage those audio professionals, deep in the pockets of big labels, did to the precious music.
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 12, 2018 12:48:42 GMT -6
Of course it would totally be fucking crazy and amateurish to use one tool that does what you were going to do with several tools and give you the same results in less time Sure as fuck wouldn’t want that or even try it . Oh, right - they've finally managed to hack my brain connection so they know exactly what I want to achieve on a given mix of a given song before even I know what I want to do with it. How the fuck do they know what my intentions and tastes are? Have they managed to get the NSA to give up their secret techniques of machine telepathy? What is this, 1984? What's the point of even working in music production if all you need is something like this? (Answer - no point at all, may as well move to Florida and watch it gradually sink into to sea!) These yobbos don't know me, don't know my tastes, and certainly don't know what my production goals are. Furthermore, other people who might be tempted to use such an abomination are never going to develop artistically and develop their own voice if they use crutches like this. You have to put in the work. There are no shortcuts. |
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 12, 2018 12:51:39 GMT -6
How do you feel about Izotope's latest plugins, then? that stuff is basically audio AI They don't run on my Studer. Or my Soundcraft. |
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 12, 2018 12:54:06 GMT -6
I know that Gullfoss is really frickin big waterfall in Iceland. Is that helpful? Over the edge in a barrel! |
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 12, 2018 13:00:20 GMT -6
Now let's play nice boys. If I fall asleep in my home studio, does that make it a bedroom? ..and if the software writes the song for me, should I give up writing songs? We can have those debates on another thread. On the other hand, the question of whether or not there's voodoo in the code is a valid one. That's more along the lines of the kinds of concerns I have with these more innovative products. I want to understand what thye're doing, but ultimately I agree with tasteliketape , if it takes me where I want to go, either better or more efficiently - I'm in. tasteliketape are you familiar with soothe? Is it anything like that? ..or is it more like a multi-band compressor but with hundreds of bands (I.e., why do they call it an EQ) ? How would you describe what it does? What do you use it on? Is it transparent? ..do you use it subtly or aggressively? But it doesn't "take you where you want to go". It can't, because it has no way of knowing that. What it does is lead youi by the nose to where IT WANTS you to go. And you never get a chance to find out where you might have gone under your own power. Know what a Judas Goat is? If you don't, look it up. |
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 12, 2018 13:07:29 GMT -6
Most impressive. Moreso if it solves all those problems will little tweaking from the user. I will have to try the PC version when it's available. There's definitely an expiration date for audio engineers and most jobs, probably before 2029 if Kurzweil's predictions are remotely accurate. There's already some cyberneticish implant to treat Parkinson's. The trade off being money and its equivalents being less and less necessary. In a lot of ways, the consumer has already made so many audio people obsolete. Once Napster came out it showed that most people would listen to the same songs over and over in substandard quality if it meant music would be free and convenient. Bands and labels started responding to this philosophy too. As time has gone on they've opted for quantity over quality, whatever made things cheaper and faster to produce. Post-2002 is where I've always felt the decline started for Rock, Pop, and Metal. The human element has been disappearing from music gradually for quite a while. There's not a lot of incentive for an unestablished artist to invest in their craft and hire someone to create some grand sound design. It's not even possible to find band members a lot of the time because everyone's tastes are so fragmented. Without an incentive to form groups and compromise, creative people need ways to generate a band. We should be seeing more products of this nature sooner than later. I'm definitely curious how long we have til we reach the tipping point where what we have now looks primitive by comparison. Most plugins will probably have AI type features built into them like this Gullfoss at some point. Then the DAW. It will get to the point where the user is only needing to provide basic instructions to the DAW and AI will do the rest. I could see there being sort of blank slate virtual instruments that take on the sound of their counterparts on existing albums once a scan of the cd is done. That could be done with other aspects too, like eq settings, saturation, compression, etc. The next 5-10 years will potentially see some pretty radical changes. Home computing is finally showing big gains from year to year and I'd be surprised if it slows down at all. I think these new Ryzens are supposed to be significantly faster. Gains made from year to year will probably get bigger. Some other company may introduce home computers beyond what Intel and AMD are doing now. For hardware, I think it will get into the territory of 3d printed stuff and people putting it together themselves before something else does it for them. Eventually hardware will be obsolete. Analog modeling will inevitably reach the point of being equivalent given how close it is now. All we can really do now is hang on for the ride I suppose. That's either brilliant satire or a very depressing view of the future, perhaps both... |
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Post by M57 on Mar 12, 2018 15:18:47 GMT -6
Now let's play nice boys. If I fall asleep in my home studio, does that make it a bedroom? ..and if the software writes the song for me, should I give up writing songs? We can have those debates on another thread. On the other hand, the question of whether or not there's voodoo in the code is a valid one. That's more along the lines of the kinds of concerns I have with these more innovative products. I want to understand what thye're doing, but ultimately I agree with tasteliketape , if it takes me where I want to go, either better or more efficiently - I'm in. tasteliketape are you familiar with soothe? Is it anything like that? ..or is it more like a multi-band compressor but with hundreds of bands (I.e., why do they call it an EQ) ? How would you describe what it does? What do you use it on? Is it transparent? ..do you use it subtly or aggressively? But it doesn't "take you where you want to go". It can't, because it has no way of knowing that. What it does is lead youi by the nose to where IT WANTS you to go. And you never get a chance to find out where you might have gone under your own power. Know what a Judas Goat is? If you don't, look it up. Hmm.. So anyone who learned how to play the guitar with what most of us call a standard tuning was being led down a path by his nose? A compressor with 4 buttons and two knobs sounds the way it sounds, period. Same applies to an EQ with a handful of sliders permanently allocated to a handful of specific frequencies with fixed Qs. It doesn't matter if you walked into a recording studio 2 days, 10 years or 50 years ago, you still found yourself at the mercy of whatever gear, mics, room was in front of you, and THAT was vehicle that took you to your destination. Certainly, you are right about one thing. No piece of gear has any way of knowing where we want to go. But it's slippery logic to suggest that a piece of gear leads us to slaughter just because it's really good at doing what it does. I think what's being confused here is the intention of the gear (it has none) and the intention of the developer/programmer of the gear. If it's a one trick pony with no buttons, knobs, or sliders, so be it. That's why we audition it, and if we like it, we leverage its capabilities, use it judiciously, and most importantly.. musically. |
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Post by jampa on Mar 12, 2018 15:34:33 GMT -6
I read the boilerplate and it scares me. <abridged> I can't believe I'm saying this, but I agree with everything you just said. John actually created this plugin to win you over |
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Post by viciousbliss on Mar 12, 2018 22:34:55 GMT -6
Most impressive. Moreso if it solves all those problems will little tweaking from the user. I will have to try the PC version when it's available. There's definitely an expiration date for audio engineers and most jobs, probably before 2029 if Kurzweil's predictions are remotely accurate. There's already some cyberneticish implant to treat Parkinson's. The trade off being money and its equivalents being less and less necessary. In a lot of ways, the consumer has already made so many audio people obsolete. Once Napster came out it showed that most people would listen to the same songs over and over in substandard quality if it meant music would be free and convenient. Bands and labels started responding to this philosophy too. As time has gone on they've opted for quantity over quality, whatever made things cheaper and faster to produce. Post-2002 is where I've always felt the decline started for Rock, Pop, and Metal. The human element has been disappearing from music gradually for quite a while. There's not a lot of incentive for an unestablished artist to invest in their craft and hire someone to create some grand sound design. It's not even possible to find band members a lot of the time because everyone's tastes are so fragmented. Without an incentive to form groups and compromise, creative people need ways to generate a band. We should be seeing more products of this nature sooner than later. I'm definitely curious how long we have til we reach the tipping point where what we have now looks primitive by comparison. Most plugins will probably have AI type features built into them like this Gullfoss at some point. Then the DAW. It will get to the point where the user is only needing to provide basic instructions to the DAW and AI will do the rest. I could see there being sort of blank slate virtual instruments that take on the sound of their counterparts on existing albums once a scan of the cd is done. That could be done with other aspects too, like eq settings, saturation, compression, etc. The next 5-10 years will potentially see some pretty radical changes. Home computing is finally showing big gains from year to year and I'd be surprised if it slows down at all. I think these new Ryzens are supposed to be significantly faster. Gains made from year to year will probably get bigger. Some other company may introduce home computers beyond what Intel and AMD are doing now. For hardware, I think it will get into the territory of 3d printed stuff and people putting it together themselves before something else does it for them. Eventually hardware will be obsolete. Analog modeling will inevitably reach the point of being equivalent given how close it is now. All we can really do now is hang on for the ride I suppose. That's either brilliant satire or a very depressing view of the future, perhaps both... Actually, I just discovered fanaticalfuturist.com after typing this. There's way more stuff going on than I can even keep up with. Everything I've talked about exists, it's just a matter of time. Kinda like how the Internet existed with bulletin boards that took 20 min to dial into and then all of a sudden the www was accessible for everyone. For us, rapid advancements may mean we should invest less and just subscribe to a couple companies while using existing stuff until it becomes obsolete. Stuff like smule is also out there. Maybe a lot of their users wouldn't hire someone, but now if someone wants to record their karaoke track, they can get a pretty polished result using smule on their phone. Is this new plugin making artistic choices or just intelligently fixing obvious issues? I won't be able to test for a while. |
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Post by EmRR on Mar 13, 2018 5:48:16 GMT -6
That's either brilliant satire or a very depressing view of the future, perhaps both... Is this new plugin making artistic choices or just intelligently fixing obvious issues? I would reverse that statement. Is this new plugin intelligently fixing obvious issues, or can it at all make artistic choices?
Autopilot dictates homogenization, with less artistic choices, and likely erases some aesthetic personality stamps, leaving only the view of the mothership. With that name, I'd have to guess this is an Ikea off brand? I know, wrong northern country..... |
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Post by M57 on Mar 13, 2018 8:08:06 GMT -6
But it doesn't "take you where you want to go". It can't, because it has no way of knowing that. What it does is lead youi by the nose to where IT WANTS you to go. And you never get a chance to find out where you might have gone under your own power. Know what a Judas Goat is? If you don't, look it up. Take the example of a Vari-Mu compressor. It makes "artistic" choices in much the same way as the Gullfoss.. in that the user has NO control over HOW the Vari-Mu compresses. Yes, you can control HOW much, but not HOW. There's little difference. Your V-M compressor was "programmed" by virtue of the fact that its builder chose to make it out of certain components. Every recording made 40 years ago had tape hiss. - Where's the artistic choice in that? More and better technology means more and better choices. The argument that AI takes away choice is specious. In fact, just the opposite; it offers us more options. If AI can do it better and more efficiently than I can, I'm in. Ever take a micro-economics class? BTW, I just read the owner's manual for the Gullfoss and it has more controls and possibilities than there are on most analog EQs out there. I.e. it can be just as easily used and abused as any piece of analog gear out there. Give it bad instructions and you get bad results, so I don't see what the fuss is about. Hard work and good ears are still mandatory. We're smack dab in the middle of a recording renaissance. DAWs and software/hardware that allow for the mass emergence so-called bedroom studios are to music what the printing press was for the book. These are exciting times. No longer are the secrets of sound the sole domain of the engineering priesthood, and to the degree that their craft can be successfully emulated, so be it. It is simply foolish to think that the options presented by the emergence of these "AI engineers" won't give savvy musicians more and more choices and in the process make it easier and easier for them to get exactly to where they want to go. It's already happening. The bridge between humanity and AI is where art will flourish. The best artists will always find the best ways to achieve their goals.. and the best part? Everyone will always have choices. You can use whatever technology you want.. including a quill and manuscript paper. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 13, 2018 8:25:46 GMT -6
Haven’t looked at the Gullfoss thing, but just like anything else, it’s a tool and can be a positive or a negative. I have used the mastering assistant in Oxone with awesome results. The assistant gives me a starting point on something like dynamic EQ that I wasn’t particularly hearing myself - and the results are better. But it’s just that - a starting point.
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 13, 2018 12:43:03 GMT -6
But it doesn't "take you where you want to go". It can't, because it has no way of knowing that. What it does is lead youi by the nose to where IT WANTS you to go. And you never get a chance to find out where you might have gone under your own power. Know what a Judas Goat is? If you don't, look it up. Hmm.. So anyone who learned how to play the guitar with what most of us call a standard tuning was being led down a path by his nose? A compressor with 4 buttons and two knobs sounds the way it sounds, period. Same applies to an EQ with a handful of sliders permanently allocated to a handful of specific frequencies with fixed Qs. It doesn't matter if you walked into a recording studio 2 days, 10 years or 50 years ago, you still found yourself at the mercy of whatever gear, mics, room was in front of you, and THAT was vehicle that took you to your destination. Certainly, you are right about one thing. No piece of gear has any way of knowing where we want to go. But it's slippery logic to suggest that a piece of gear leads us to slaughter just because it's really good at doing what it does. I think what's being confused here is the intention of the gear (it has none) and the intention of the developer/programmer of the gear. If it's a one trick pony with no buttons, knobs, or sliders, so be it. That's why we audition it, and if we like it, we leverage its capabilities, use it judiciously, and most importantly.. musically. Totally spurious argument. You guitar tuning does not dictate how you play it. Really, man, that's pretty disappointing. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 13, 2018 13:01:34 GMT -6
The scary truth of the future. I'll have to try it sometime. Looks kind of cool really.
While this will be the future, the old will always be there. Same reason why there are still copies of the LA2A being made today. They sound freaking good.
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Post by M57 on Mar 13, 2018 13:24:41 GMT -6
Hmm.. So anyone who learned how to play the guitar with what most of us call a standard tuning was being led down a path by his nose? A compressor with 4 buttons and two knobs sounds the way it sounds, period. Same applies to an EQ with a handful of sliders permanently allocated to a handful of specific frequencies with fixed Qs. It doesn't matter if you walked into a recording studio 2 days, 10 years or 50 years ago, you still found yourself at the mercy of whatever gear, mics, room was in front of you, and THAT was vehicle that took you to your destination. Certainly, you are right about one thing. No piece of gear has any way of knowing where we want to go. But it's slippery logic to suggest that a piece of gear leads us to slaughter just because it's really good at doing what it does. I think what's being confused here is the intention of the gear (it has none) and the intention of the developer/programmer of the gear. If it's a one trick pony with no buttons, knobs, or sliders, so be it. That's why we audition it, and if we like it, we leverage its capabilities, use it judiciously, and most importantly.. musically. Totally spurious argument. You guitar tuning does not dictate how you play it. Really, man, that's pretty disappointing. OK - cut the guitar statement - So what about the compressor? Come on man, we're all beholden to the technology. If you're talented, you can make art from poo - but give an artist better tools, and they make better art. I'm not backing down from my argument. |
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