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Post by Vincent R. on Mar 21, 2019 9:34:50 GMT -6
bowie, how does the EF806 compare to the EF86? Stam and other builders seem to like them.
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Post by tskguy on Mar 21, 2019 9:36:59 GMT -6
Ward, Your so nice
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Post by Ward on Mar 21, 2019 10:40:05 GMT -6
Ward, Your so nice Says almost nobody ever . . . Just keep smiling through it all. Because everyone needs to 'go on walkabout' once in a while. I think I got that from wiz. And he's damned straight.
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Post by hadaja on Mar 21, 2019 13:20:55 GMT -6
An Australian term for both indigenous people for there native walkabout trips and an Australian term for employees of large organisations who seem to disappear during work time somewhere especially at times when they are needed by upper management.
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Post by Ward on Mar 21, 2019 15:13:07 GMT -6
An Australian term for both indigenous people for there native walkabout trips and an Australian term for employees of large organisations who seem to disappear during work time somewhere especially at times when they are needed by upper management. So, a euphamism for goin AWOL? Taing a break from real life? In that case, thanks for the +1
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 21, 2019 15:15:55 GMT -6
Well I like that new one “taingabreak”, think I’ll start using it right after I stop taingabreak !
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Post by bowie on Mar 21, 2019 20:52:59 GMT -6
bowie , how does the EF806 compare to the EF86? Stam and other builders seem to like them. I just spent a while typing a huge reply to this but when I went to post the site dumped it and gave me an error message (I think it logged me out because I took too long). Very frustrating as I went into great detail and I really don't have it in me to type it all up again tonight. But, I don't want to ignore your Q so I'll say this; When buying unselected tubes, it used to make sense to buy an EF806s because you were more likely to get a mic grade tube. But, the market is so polluted now (more than half the 806s I come across are used being sold as "NOS") that the old rules don't apply. I personally find well selected Tele EF86s can be as good as a nice EF806s so I usually recommend people save their money and go with a good EF86. But, some feel differently and insist on 806s only so I carry them for people who prefer them. One thing to keep in mind is that there are variations on these tubes so they don't always sound the same and can't always be laterally compared. Some even like the standard EF86s better, depending on the tone they are after and the type they are comparing. I've seen it said that some batches of EF806s were factory selected EF86s. I can't verify the validity of that statement but it wouldn't surprise me in the least as some look and sound exactly the same. So, you'll get a variety of opinions but that's a summary of my sentiments. 15 years ago, the market was different and you could get good 806s without mortgaging your home or winding up with fakes/used pieces. Now, you have to be careful. The last several EF806s I've got were noisy and tested poorly, despite all being "NOS" and supposedly tested as such by the electronics salvagers I got them from.
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Post by indiehouse on Mar 22, 2019 4:37:45 GMT -6
bowie , how does the EF806 compare to the EF86? Stam and other builders seem to like them. I just spent a while typing a huge reply to this but when I went to post the site dumped it and gave me an error message (I think it logged me out because I took too long). Very frustrating as I went into great detail and I really don't have it in me to type it all up again tonight. But, I don't want to ignore your Q so I'll say this; When buying unselected tubes, it used to make sense to buy an EF806s because you were more likely to get a mic grade tube. But, the market is so polluted now (more than half the 806s I come across are used being sold as "NOS") that the old rules don't apply. I personally find well selected Tele EF86s can be as good as a nice EF806s so I usually recommend people save their money and go with a good EF86. But, some feel differently and insist on 806s only so I carry them for people who prefer them. One thing to keep in mind is that there are variations on these tubes so they don't always sound the same and can't always be laterally compared. Some even like the standard EF86s better, depending on the tone they are after and the type they are comparing. I've seen it said that some batches of EF806s were factory selected EF86s. I can't verify the validity of that statement but it wouldn't surprise me in the least as some look and sound exactly the same. So, you'll get a variety of opinions but that's a summary of my sentiments. 15 years ago, the market was different and you could get good 806s without mortgaging your home or winding up with fakes/used pieces. Now, you have to be careful. The last several EF806s I've got were noisy and tested poorly, despite all being "NOS" and supposedly tested as such by the electronics salvagers I got them from. Curious to know what happens when you end up buying crap tubes? Do you try and dispute it to get your money back? Or eat it and take a loss?
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Post by bowie on Mar 22, 2019 18:46:54 GMT -6
I just spent a while typing a huge reply to this but when I went to post the site dumped it and gave me an error message (I think it logged me out because I took too long). Very frustrating as I went into great detail and I really don't have it in me to type it all up again tonight. But, I don't want to ignore your Q so I'll say this; When buying unselected tubes, it used to make sense to buy an EF806s because you were more likely to get a mic grade tube. But, the market is so polluted now (more than half the 806s I come across are used being sold as "NOS") that the old rules don't apply. I personally find well selected Tele EF86s can be as good as a nice EF806s so I usually recommend people save their money and go with a good EF86. But, some feel differently and insist on 806s only so I carry them for people who prefer them. One thing to keep in mind is that there are variations on these tubes so they don't always sound the same and can't always be laterally compared. Some even like the standard EF86s better, depending on the tone they are after and the type they are comparing. I've seen it said that some batches of EF806s were factory selected EF86s. I can't verify the validity of that statement but it wouldn't surprise me in the least as some look and sound exactly the same. So, you'll get a variety of opinions but that's a summary of my sentiments. 15 years ago, the market was different and you could get good 806s without mortgaging your home or winding up with fakes/used pieces. Now, you have to be careful. The last several EF806s I've got were noisy and tested poorly, despite all being "NOS" and supposedly tested as such by the electronics salvagers I got them from. Curious to know what happens when you end up buying crap tubes? Do you try and dispute it to get your money back? Or eat it and take a loss? I try to develop business relationships with the individuals and businesses that go through inventories of old electronics. Most tubes in general are not up to pro-audio standards and I don't fuss about that. Sometimes, even an entire batch is low quality and I often eat several hundred dollars at a time. But, if something is not as it was described to me (fake, used, branded one name but made by another), I'll make an effort to get my money back. If they refuse, they aren't people I want to be doing business with in the future anyway. I spend a lot of money on these things so most these folks would rather keep my business. It's easier for them to sell everything at once to me than to try to sell them individually and deal with all the hassles that go along with that.
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Post by Quint on Mar 22, 2019 19:10:11 GMT -6
The ProAudioTubes@aol.com address for Christian was working as of last October and was his Paypal addy. He's also been reliable to contact through GS PM. He's a great guy and superb supplier. I was originally going to go through him to upgrade the SA-67 I ordered via Stam and Christian remarked that due to the U67 reissue, 86's of all kinds were in high demand and they were a lot more costly since the last time I purchased several (for something...). The great thing about Christian is his depth of knowledge and sense of what each tube maker sonically brings to the table. The SA67 and I parted ways very quickly, so I didn't need to go through with the purchase. I did by a buttload of 6Ak5's to roll in my Horch that is currently in MicRehab Purgatory. Maybe someday... ^That is correct, thank you. The .com has been squatted on for 10+ years by someone who does not respond to inquiries. The good ol AOL email address is still alive and well and I'm doing tubes full time through that email. Regarding the Telefunken EF86 topic, I didn't follow the whole discussion so I'm not sure what's being debated but I'll make some comments and people can feel free to ask questions. -The market for EF86s is one of the most polluted right now and even I get scammed all the time. As recently as last week. It's very common for sellers (particularly in EU where EF86s were common) to pull EF86s from old equipment and sell them as "NOS" or "like new". Sometimes even re-printing boxes to make them look 'NIB'. New labels can be put on the glass too. -"Red tip" tubes are usually pulls. I personally avoid them because I only seek NOS/unused EF86s. -EF86s test far too generously on most tube testers so, even if the seller is not out to dupe anyone, they might be selling weak tubes as "tests like new". The digital Amplitrex AT1000 is the only tester I've personally used that seems to give accurate readings on EF86s. This tester is NOT adequate for noise testing though (other than line-grade maybe) and will not give you any idea if a tube is mic-grade. -Even if an EF86 is accurately tested at 100%, it might be a used tube because tubes don't just start at 100%. If an EF86 starts at 150% of spec it might be worn and noisy by the time it gets down to 100%. A tube that starts at 80% though might have the exact same lifespan as one that starts at 150%. This is why getting an unused tube is important. The specs don't really tell you how much life is left or if it's unused. Determining that is more a matter of adding up probabilities and using an experienced eye. -Some sellers 'rejuvenate' used tubes by cooking them at high heater voltages to restore strength. These tubes will test strong but In my experience this is temporary and when I put the tube through my burn-in process, it will usually go back to being a weak tube after a few dozen hours. -I did once find a bulk packed group of NOS Telefunken EF86s, but it's rare to find unused bulk stock. -Scammers on ebay often have 100% positive feedback because people who can spot a fake or a dishonest listing will not buy from them, and thus can't leave feedback. I don't "out" anyone publicly so if you have a question/suspicion that can remain confidential, feel free to message or email me. I don't want to turn this into a sales pitch for my biz either. I just want to share as much info as possible and be transparent about tubes and the tube market. It's only the scammers who benefit from misinformation. Do you have a protege you are training? Seriously? It will be a serious loss if/when you ever bow out of this game.
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Post by bowie on Mar 22, 2019 20:14:31 GMT -6
^That is correct, thank you. The .com has been squatted on for 10+ years by someone who does not respond to inquiries. The good ol AOL email address is still alive and well and I'm doing tubes full time through that email. Regarding the Telefunken EF86 topic, I didn't follow the whole discussion so I'm not sure what's being debated but I'll make some comments and people can feel free to ask questions. -The market for EF86s is one of the most polluted right now and even I get scammed all the time. As recently as last week. It's very common for sellers (particularly in EU where EF86s were common) to pull EF86s from old equipment and sell them as "NOS" or "like new". Sometimes even re-printing boxes to make them look 'NIB'. New labels can be put on the glass too. -"Red tip" tubes are usually pulls. I personally avoid them because I only seek NOS/unused EF86s. -EF86s test far too generously on most tube testers so, even if the seller is not out to dupe anyone, they might be selling weak tubes as "tests like new". The digital Amplitrex AT1000 is the only tester I've personally used that seems to give accurate readings on EF86s. This tester is NOT adequate for noise testing though (other than line-grade maybe) and will not give you any idea if a tube is mic-grade. -Even if an EF86 is accurately tested at 100%, it might be a used tube because tubes don't just start at 100%. If an EF86 starts at 150% of spec it might be worn and noisy by the time it gets down to 100%. A tube that starts at 80% though might have the exact same lifespan as one that starts at 150%. This is why getting an unused tube is important. The specs don't really tell you how much life is left or if it's unused. Determining that is more a matter of adding up probabilities and using an experienced eye. -Some sellers 'rejuvenate' used tubes by cooking them at high heater voltages to restore strength. These tubes will test strong but In my experience this is temporary and when I put the tube through my burn-in process, it will usually go back to being a weak tube after a few dozen hours. -I did once find a bulk packed group of NOS Telefunken EF86s, but it's rare to find unused bulk stock. -Scammers on ebay often have 100% positive feedback because people who can spot a fake or a dishonest listing will not buy from them, and thus can't leave feedback. I don't "out" anyone publicly so if you have a question/suspicion that can remain confidential, feel free to message or email me. I don't want to turn this into a sales pitch for my biz either. I just want to share as much info as possible and be transparent about tubes and the tube market. It's only the scammers who benefit from misinformation. Do you have a protege you are training? Seriously? It will be a serious loss if/when you ever bow out of this game. I've never thought about myself that way but people tell me ^that a lot so I realize I should probably start to document what I've leaned. There's a lot of "tube guys" out there that have a wealth of technical knowledge but I think my strength is that few of the tube guys have spent a lot of time from an artist's standpoint, spending thousands of hours making detailed sonic comparisons like I have. I've had a few people ask to apprentice but I advise them there's no money in it, especially for honest folks. I think I might be in the last generation of "tube guys" as I'm relatively young for this kind of work (in my 40's) and by the time I get done with tubes in another 20 or 30 years, the good stuff might finally be unobtanium.
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Post by Quint on Mar 22, 2019 20:30:10 GMT -6
Do you have a protege you are training? Seriously? It will be a serious loss if/when you ever bow out of this game. I've never thought about myself that way but people tell me ^that a lot so I realize I should probably start to document what I've leaned. There's a lot of "tube guys" out there that have a wealth of technical knowledge but I think my strength is that few of the tube guys have spent a lot of time from an artist's standpoint, spending thousands of hours making detailed sonic comparisons like I have. I've had a few people ask to apprentice but I advise them there's no money in it, especially for honest folks. I think I might be in the last generation of "tube guys" as I'm relatively young for this kind of work (in my 40's) and by the time I get done with tubes in another 20 or 30 years, the good stuff might finally be unobtanium. Well I would be interested in learning and absorbing your knowledge to continue that bridge of knowledge. No profit motive at all. Seriously. It's important to a lot of us.
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Post by jakeboy on Mar 23, 2019 7:50:32 GMT -6
Shipping notice just hit on my SA-67. It arrrives next Thursday. Review to follow once I get to records t in several sources. Fortunately, I am in the middle of a blues album so using this on guitars, bass, vocals, and percussion will be happening. Really excited.
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 23, 2019 8:24:48 GMT -6
Excellent news, which tube did you order ?
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Post by jakeboy on Mar 23, 2019 17:50:03 GMT -6
I didn’t order any specific tube. I was never given the option. I do have a Mullard and Amperex here to swap in if needed....
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 23, 2019 18:11:25 GMT -6
It’s good to experiment. The different tubes are I think specified in the prices on the website but Bowie can always set you up with a sweet tube if you want !
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Post by Ward on Mar 23, 2019 19:15:15 GMT -6
I didn’t order any specific tube. I was never given the option. I do have a Mullard and Amperex here to swap in if needed.... The U67’s sound is highly impacted by the tube in it, as previously firmly stated. Please experiment!
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Post by jakeboy on Mar 23, 2019 19:28:50 GMT -6
I certainly plan to! If the tube from Stam or my two ef86s don’t sound incredible, I will order one from Bowie.
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Post by stam on Mar 25, 2019 14:02:21 GMT -6
The 67 is 40% tube Crazy but true
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Post by peterhess on Mar 25, 2019 18:02:43 GMT -6
Looking forward to an invoice.
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Post by EmRR on Mar 25, 2019 19:33:04 GMT -6
The 67 is 40% tube Crazy but true My tube rolling tests would certainly agree.
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Post by damoongo on Mar 25, 2019 21:23:49 GMT -6
The 67 is 40% tube Crazy but true My tube rolling tests would certainly agree. Curious if there’s method to your tube tolling tests? Or just talk into mic and see if you like it? The following is what I do, and I’m thinking at least this much control would be good: Any suggestions for improvement would be great. 1. place mic on stand with a clip where it can be unmounted and mounted easily and be back in precisely the same location/orientation. 2. Set up a speaker 18” from mic on axis. 3. For each tube, playback 100hz, 1khz, and 10kz tones through speaker and record them into DAW. Then record “silence” (hopefully you have a quiet room.) 4. Then, with out monitoring yourself, talk, sing, play the flute, whatever you know the sound of best. Try for consistency and of performance and location etc. 5. Switch tubes and go again... 6. Then use the recorded 1khz tones to find the difference in output of each tube, and then level match” the recorded clips for each tube. (Otherwise one might be fooled into liking something because the output is hotter.). Also look at the 100hz tones and 10khz tones to see if any major differences... 7. Once the “silence” and “performance” clips have been level adjusted by the amount determined in step 6, compare the noise floor of the “silence” clips. 8. Then listen to your performance clips, (the most subjective, least scientific of the clips) to see if anything stands out as amazing and take note. 9. Narrow the field down to 3 you like and that have good noise specs, then repeat step 4, except this time monitor yourself during “performance” and make note of which one you like. (Record as well.) 10. Listen back to the 3 in random order to see if you agree with yourself. If you do, use THAT tube! Now leave it ON for 48 hours to make sure the noise floor is still ok. Is that kind of what you do?
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Post by jakeboy on Mar 26, 2019 21:02:28 GMT -6
Woohoo! My SA67 arrived today and it looks awesome! It came with a Telefunken ef806 and I cannot wait to start using it on everything!
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