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Post by schmalzy on Feb 8, 2018 12:40:15 GMT -6
Interesting... fadermate.co.ukIncludes this video: Their branding: MOVING FADERS. ANY CONSOLE. ANY DAW. Too rich for my blood but, for a lot of the cats around here that aren't about to replace their analog workflow, might be perfect. |
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Post by rowmat on Feb 8, 2018 13:14:42 GMT -6
Hopefully this type of automation will become more common and cheaper.
I'm guessing the starting price of £1399 is probably only an 8 channel version so I would expect something like $10,000 to $20,000 to retrofit this to a typical console (32 channels plus)
Not chicken feed but more feasible than something like $100,000 for many of the original moving fader systems of the past.
Almost a no brainer if you are running a viable studio business using an analog console in a hybrid DAW setup.
I would think it maybe also possible to run the this with an analog tape multitrack as long as the tape machine could be synced to a DAW session just running the console fader automation.
My biggest fear would be proprietry software/drivers that could result in system obsolescence should future support cease.
Also it uses fairly low cost ALPS motorised faders.
Obviously this keeps the overall cost down but I would be concerned about long term reliability as motorised faders get a much harder life than manual faders.
Better quality faders would likely be an option I would think but the cost of the system would double at least.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Feb 8, 2018 13:46:35 GMT -6
Don Larking was pushing this a few months ago, as I remember it's Malcom Tofts latest and greatest idea. It's been on the back burner for a couple of years off and on. The info I have is that you need 1 Master control unit for 333 pounds and then a 8 way Fader Control unit for controlling blocks of 8 faders ( from pricing info 8 100mm faders included) at 833 pounds each.
Now if you have ever priced the Highend P&G or TKD motorized faders you know this system isn't using those!
The thing that always made moving Fader Systems so expensive is the faders themselves and the fact that there is not a one size or value or taper solution that fits all. In fact the faders Paul Wolf used in the Tonelux automation system were a custom taper.
There is a way around this to some degree using a VCA or Digital Controlled Amplifier and using the Fader simply to control the voltage.
A VCA or DCA system is a very different beast from a true moving Fader system but with a VCA or DCA system it is very easy to page between the Fader controlling audio and DAW functions, true moving Fader system can control audio or DAW but it's an either or situation you can't page between them because the Fader is the device physically controlling the audio so if you were to flip the function the level would change as well.
I'm skeptical because of the price point but also eager to see what's what because of the price point! Go figure!
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Post by rowmat on Feb 8, 2018 13:54:49 GMT -6
Don Larking was pushing this a few months ago, as I remember it's Malcom Tofts latest and greatest idea. It's been on the back burner for a couple of years off and on. The info I have is that you need 1 Master control unit for 333 pounds and then a 8 way Fader Control unit for controlling blocks of 8 faders ( from pricing info 8 100mm faders included) at 833 pounds each. Now if you have ever priced the Highend P&G or TKD motorized faders you know this system isn't using those! The thing that always made moving Fader Systems so expensive is the faders themselves and the fact that there is not a one size or value or taper solution that fits all. In fact the faders Paul Wolf used in the Tonelux automation system were a custom taper. There is a way around this to some degree using a VCA or Digital Controlled Amplifier and using the Fader simply to control the voltage. A VCA or DCA system is a very different beast from a true moving Fader system but with a VCA or DCA system it is very easy to page between the Fader controlling audio and DAW functions, true moving Fader system can control audio or DAW but it's an either or situation you can't page between them because the Fader is the device physically controlling the audio so if you were to flip the function the level would change as well. I'm skeptical because of the price point but also eager to see what's what because of the price point! Go figure! Yeah I just found out it uses low cost ALPS motorised faders mainly due to their compact size (and no doubt low cost) according to one of the FaderMate design team. He said it was to ensure they could be fitted to most existing consoles where space may be an issue for bulkier motorised faders. However I would be concerned about long term reliability issues. I'm not sure whether these faders are serviceable/rebuildable or even still available for purchase in a few years. I think a P&G or TKD motorised faders option would have to be offered at some point as I can't imagine someone fitting this to an older $150,000 Neve with lots of sessions taking a chance on a bunch of $60 motorised faders. Anyway early days yet so we'll see how it plays out. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Feb 8, 2018 14:06:29 GMT -6
Hopefully this type of automation will become more common and cheaper. I'm guessing the starting price of £1399 is probably only an 8 channel version so expect something like $10,000 to $20,000 to retrofit this to a typical console (32 channels plus) Not chicken feed but more feasible than something like $100,000 for many of the original moving fader systems of the past. Almost a no brainer if you are running a viable studio business using an analog console in a hybrid DAW setup. I would think it maybe also possible to run the this with an analog tape multitrack as long as the tape machine could be synced to a DAW session just running the console fader automation. My biggest fear would be proprietry software/drivers that could result in system obsolescence should future support cease. The software DAW intergration always scares me, about 10 years ago I was asked to consult with a company with a similar system that never came to market once they realized the expenses involved in supporting all the different consoles out there and how little room there was inside many consoles as well as how many people who would be interested in a system like this would find drilling holes in their baby a deal breaker! My biggest thing was if you are going to do this besides a software system that ties you to a DAW a standalone software package is a must! Over the years to many OS changes, Plugin standard changes, Control protocol changes and to many of manufacturers of similar systems biting the dust means it would be nice if you could always simply run the Fader system on a legacy computer with just the Fader system chasing timecode or MTC! At first they thought I was nuts until they realized 90% of the moving Fader systems out there are running on legacy computer hardware ! I mean imagine if AVID suddenly decides AAX should go the way of RTAS and Fader Mate is no more! Would you rather have to run 2 DAW sessions or 1 DAW and one automation system? |
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Post by ericn on Feb 8, 2018 14:10:09 GMT -6
Don Larking was pushing this a few months ago, as I remember it's Malcom Tofts latest and greatest idea. It's been on the back burner for a couple of years off and on. The info I have is that you need 1 Master control unit for 333 pounds and then a 8 way Fader Control unit for controlling blocks of 8 faders ( from pricing info 8 100mm faders included) at 833 pounds each. Now if you have ever priced the Highend P&G or TKD motorized faders you know this system isn't using those! The thing that always made moving Fader Systems so expensive is the faders themselves and the fact that there is not a one size or value or taper solution that fits all. In fact the faders Paul Wolf used in the Tonelux automation system were a custom taper. There is a way around this to some degree using a VCA or Digital Controlled Amplifier and using the Fader simply to control the voltage. A VCA or DCA system is a very different beast from a true moving Fader system but with a VCA or DCA system it is very easy to page between the Fader controlling audio and DAW functions, true moving Fader system can control audio or DAW but it's an either or situation you can't page between them because the Fader is the device physically controlling the audio so if you were to flip the function the level would change as well. I'm skeptical because of the price point but also eager to see what's what because of the price point! Go figure! Yeah I just found out it uses low cost ALPS motorised faders mainly due to their compact size (and no doubt low cost) according to one of the FaderMate design team. He said it was to ensure they could be fitted to most existing consoles where space may be an issue for bulkier motorised faders. However I would be concerned about long term reliability issues. I'm not sure whether these faders are serviceable/rebuildable or even still available for purchase in a few years. I think a P&G or TKD motorised faders option would have to be offered at some point as I can't imagine someone fitting this to an older $150,000 Neve with lots of sessions taking a chance on a bunch of $60 motorised faders. Anyway early days yet so we'll see how it plays out. Did he say what series of ALPS? The only Alps that has a duty cycle close to TKD & P&G are pretty darn close in size to the big boys! |
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Post by keymod on Feb 9, 2018 4:08:07 GMT -6
This thread led me to ask: How's the CAPI system progressing?
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Post by jsteiger on Feb 9, 2018 20:24:32 GMT -6
This thread led me to ask: How's the CAPI system progressing? Software updates...software tweaks...etc etc, rinse and repeat. The time spent on this is flat out silly. However, we are set for another solid round of testing this coming Thursday. My local friend who does the testing is a beast. He bends over backwards to find every little possible thing that could be improved. If I am super lucky, the list will be small come Thursday. |
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Post by keymod on Feb 10, 2018 5:38:06 GMT -6
This thread led me to ask: How's the CAPI system progressing? Software updates...software tweaks...etc etc, rinse and repeat. The time spent on this is flat out silly. However, we are set for another solid round of testing this coming Thursday. My local friend who does the testing is a beast. He bends over backwards to find every little possible thing that could be improved. If I am super lucky, the list will be small come Thursday. I am hoping that you are more than super lucky. |
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Post by fadermateandy on Feb 10, 2018 8:25:16 GMT -6
I'm guessing the starting price of £1399 is probably only an 8 channel version so I would expect something like $10,000 to $20,000 to retrofit this to a typical console (32 channels plus) Not chicken feed but more feasible than something like $100,000 for many of the original moving fader systems of the past. Almost a no brainer if you are running a viable studio business using an analog console in a hybrid DAW setup. I would think it maybe also possible to run the this with an analog tape multitrack as long as the tape machine could be synced to a DAW session just running the console fader automation. My biggest fear would be proprietry software/drivers that could result in system obsolescence should future support cease. Also it uses fairly low cost ALPS motorised faders. Obviously this keeps the overall cost down but I would be concerned about long term reliability as motorised faders get a much harder life than manual faders. Better quality faders would likely be an option I would think but the cost of the system would double at least. Hi rowmat. I saw this pop up in Google so I thought I'd come and add some information. I hope this helps. In terms of price to retrofit: a kit to handle 32 channels (at current exchange rates, we're in the UK) would come in at less than $5500. The fitting process is very straightforward if you're happy with basic hand tools and soldering. The one exception would be bringing the wiring inside the console from the MCU in the rack. However, I can't imagine that you'd be anywhere near $10k even if you asked a tech to do it. Of course if you have a particularly big console, you may need to buy 2 MCUs, but you'd probably be in the region of 56 channels before the kit cost alone would get near $10k. As to your fear about proprietary drivers, I completely understand where you're coming from. However, the system talks Mackie HUI over a standard MIDI interface. There isn't a single proprietary driver in the system. So long as DAWs support HUI and MIDI, the system should work. Finally, regarding the possibility of us releasing kits with different faders: it definitely is on our radar and we're really keen to hear about people's specific requirements. However, as I'm sure you can appreciate, this product is a way of bringing automation 'to the people' so to speak. Whilst I can see that people may worry about the longevity of the Alps faders, also bear in mind that they are quite easy to get hold of and cheap to replace if required in a few years. If anybody would like to ask us specific questions or tell us that you're interested in seeing us develop particular improvements to the system spec for future variants, don't hesitate to get in touch through the website. Best, Andy |
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