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Post by M57 on Jan 19, 2018 16:19:02 GMT -6
I'm putting this in the presets category because it seems somewhat related.
Are there any plugs out there that can take a track and apply numerous subtle (or not so subtle) random variations of pitch, timing, and other related processes to create a realistic doubled performance?
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 19, 2018 23:20:26 GMT -6
I have the Vacuum Sound plug, the original Artificial Double Tracking one. I don't know if it's still available, it was free when I got it. Try this, it worked for me. Get the Poor Plate too while you're at it: www.nullmedium.de/dev/audioplugins/ADT - Artificial Double Tracking is a plug-in which emulates the "Artificial Double Tracking" technique invented by The Beatles at Abbey Road Studios. It takes a mono input signal and generates a stereo signal with the original signal panned to one side and the ADT signal panned to the other. ADT - Artificial Double Tracking The ADT technique was developed at Abbey Road Studios by engineers recording The Beatles in the 1960s. To free John Lennon from having to sing everything twice for real double tracking they came up with an artificial replacement: they sent the original signal to another tape machine and re-recorded it. Due to the physical distance between record and playback heads the new signal was delayed. The length of the delay depends on the tape speed (the slower the tape is running the longer it takes for the signal to travel from the record to the playback head). However, due to the machine's (small amounts of) Wow and Flutter the delay time was not fixed but varied slightly, giving an additional chorus-like effect. The ADT plug-in takes a mono input signal and creates a stereo output. The original input signal will be output on one channel, the new ADT signal on the other. Blending the two is also possible. The plug-in allows to control the delay time (10 - 50ms), Wow and Flutter (both with intensity in % and frequency). All values are based on the technical data of the tape machines that was originally used to create this effect. Controls: Delay: the time the ADT signal is delayed, 10 - 50 ms. Dra Level: the level of the original signal. ADT Level: the level of the ADT signal. ADT Pan: the pan position of the ADT signal, the original signal is positioned at the opposite side. Wow: amount of low frequency playback speed variation, 0 - 0.2%. WowFreq.: low frequency playback speed variation rate, 0 - 6Hz. Waveform: waveform of Wow, Sine or Triangle. Flutter: amount of high frequency playback speed variation, 0 - 0.2%. FlutFreq.: high frequency playback speed variation rate, 4 - 60Hz. Waveform: waveform of Flutter, Sine or Triangle. The Waves CLA plug for Vocals helps a lot with double tracked vocals too. |
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Post by M57 on Jan 20, 2018 4:51:02 GMT -6
Yeah - a friend of mine was asking about it (no, really) so I thought I'd post the question here. I know he's not looking for a delay, and I'm pretty certain he wants to avoid phase and other effect-like artifacts (no oscilators, wow, flutter, etc.) What I'm talking about is much more realistic and sounding, emulating how a true double sounds - and it's probably a CPU hog.
On the timing end, it would probably do something like identify transients, then randomly shift them both forward and backward in time. Often the double will come in early, right? Similarly on the pitch end, it would have to identify notes, and then randomly raise and lower the pitch of each note.
Of course, if the goal is a realistic 'humanized' double, then complete randomization needs to be avoided and/or controlled. In the case of both of these processes, variables would include range of time/pitch shift and perhaps some kind of depth related function that's informed by a distribution curve. Similar options could be made for volume or even transient shaping, but I think a plug/function that could alter just timing and pitch would go a long way toward achieving the goal.
It occurs to me that these are features that could be executed manually in any DAW that has Flex pitch and Flex time-like features so it doesn't seem like too much of a stretch to imagine a DAW that features built-in randomization parameters. I don't own any third party Auto-Tune/Melodyne-like software, but I wonder if they have any of this functionality on the pitch end of things.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2018 7:49:19 GMT -6
Martin beat me to it, that ADT plug is great and have been using it for years.
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Post by M57 on Jan 20, 2018 9:11:36 GMT -6
Martin beat me to it, that ADT plug is great and have been using it for years. Yeah, but isn't that pretty much just a tape delay (emulation) with an oscillator or two to spice it up? If I was to double a vocal performance, sometimes I would be sharp, sometimes flat, sometimes late, sometime early. And to be a little more nit-picky - when I'm sharp or flat, my pitch doesn't fluctuate in oscillator like fashion. Real doubling doesn't create nearly as many phase related artifacts, no?? |
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Post by Tbone81 on Jan 20, 2018 12:56:18 GMT -6
Martin beat me to it, that ADT plug is great and have been using it for years. Yeah, but isn't that pretty much just a tape delay (emulation) with an oscillator or two to spice it up? If I was to double a vocal performance, sometimes I would be sharp, sometimes flat, sometimes late, sometime early. And to be a little more nit-picky - when I'm sharp or flat, my pitch doesn't fluctuate in oscillator like fashion. Real doubling doesn't create nearly as many phase related artifacts, no?? ADT is cool but to me it's not a realistic doubling, it's an effect. A cool one that works in certain situations, but still an effect if that makes sense. You could probably use melodyne to take a multed track and randomize it by small variations in pitch and timing and formant. Not sure how fast or easy that would be though. |
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Post by ragan on Jan 20, 2018 13:28:52 GMT -6
In the amount of time the person spends Googling around and demo’ing various things couldn’t they just grab another take?
Seems a bit like a (proposed) solution in search of a problem.
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Post by M57 on Jan 20, 2018 13:45:03 GMT -6
In the amount of time the person spends Googling around and demo’ing various things couldn’t they just grab another take? Seems a bit like a (proposed) solution in search of a problem. Yeah, maybe.. Though I can see where perhaps after the session the producer or artist requests an artificial but real sounding double (See? I knew I could come up with one  Actually, I can imagine when dealing with a track of a singer who runs out of voice in the process of getting it right. Hmm.. also, in cases where there's the issue of saving time and money. Heck I could see it marketed as a money-saver. Instant plugin double. Find your favorite preset and print. Send the singer home and create a choir. |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jan 20, 2018 18:15:05 GMT -6
Revoice Pro is really natural sounding and probably the best sounding vocal tuning app too. Abbey Road ADT is a classic sound too.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2018 3:06:21 GMT -6
You might want to try Valhalla Space Modulator too, it's free if you have already bought a Valhalla plugin, sign up for an account, and answer a very quick questionnaire. It has a "Doubler" mode. Some of the LFO's are more 'randomish' than others, but maybe not random enough for you. valhalladsp.com/shop/modulation/valhalla-space-modulator/ |
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Post by M57 on Jan 23, 2018 5:28:01 GMT -6
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Post by adamjbrass on Feb 28, 2018 10:03:24 GMT -6
The Eventide Harmonizer H910 and H949 plug in kinda does stuff like this. Especially the H949. You can tweak the hell out of it and blend it in to create a sound that I think might be similar to what your seeking.
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 28, 2018 12:15:34 GMT -6
they sent the original signal to another tape machine and re-recorded it. Due to the physical distance between record and playback heads the new signal was delayed. The length of the delay depends on the tape speed (the slower the tape is running the longer it takes for the signal to travel from the record to the playback head). However, due to the machine's (small amounts of) Wow and Flutter the delay time was not fixed but varied slightly, giving an additional chorus-like effect. I don't think that's quite right. The distance between record and playback heads is great enough so that the result would be a slapback echo, not an ADT effect. It's been a little while since I read about what they actually did, but IIRC they used a machine that had an extra special head for monitoring, not the actual playback head. The other way to do it would be to sync the two machines in playback and physically change the playback of one or both with slight pressure on the supply reel. Wish I could remember wherte I read about that... Audio & Design Recording also had a hardware ADT module for their SCAMP rack system. Unfortunately it's one of the modules I don't have yet, and one of the few that commands a consistently high price when one does show up on the market. (no, SCAMP modules are not 500 compatible.) |
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Post by donr on Mar 7, 2018 11:11:58 GMT -6
None of these effects sound like a doubled vocal. You may want the effect, but it serves to obscure and smear the one original performance.
You might get a useable effect by hard tuning a copy of the vocal, and nudging it up under the original in the same pan position.
When I hear a real doubled vocal, what catches my ear is the spots where the vocalist doesn't quite match the original performance.
That Through-Zero flanger is cool. It must look ahead at the audio to be able to do that.
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 7, 2018 13:04:47 GMT -6
^^^What Don Said^^^
What I don't get is why people don't just sing it again - I can lay down a pretty decent triple in about 3-4 takes usually, and I don't consider myself to be that great a singer.
Unless, of course, you actually want the "fake double track" sound, not the real thing. Some do.
It IS possible that it might be made easier by the fact that I track with monitors, not cans.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Mar 7, 2018 14:22:59 GMT -6
I've had real ones flange!
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Post by guitfiddler on Mar 8, 2018 1:10:37 GMT -6
I agree on the second take(double it), I will search the banks of my H3500, there is a real good one in there somewhere in my 1000 presets, only use 3. Lol
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Mar 9, 2018 16:51:45 GMT -6
None of these effects sound like a doubled vocal. You may want the effect, but it serves to obscure and smear the one original performance. You might get a useable effect by hard tuning a copy of the vocal, and nudging it up under the original in the same pan position. When I hear a real doubled vocal, what catches my ear is the spots where the vocalist doesn't quite match the original performance. That Through-Zero flanger is cool. It must look ahead at the audio to be able to do that. I agree 110% with this. Nothing I've tried substitutes for a tight (real) double. Guitars, vox, whatever it's the same. I spent more time trying to save time with plugins than it would've taken me to double track. On a side note...not only were some of our favorite records double tracked, but they were gazillion tracked. I.E. Thriller. |
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