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Post by popmann on Jan 15, 2018 19:18:48 GMT -6
Can anyone say they have (digital) hardware level latency numbers playing a virtual instrument with a USB/Firewire/Thunderbolt interface?
I can run down how you actually test....but, it DOES require you own an analog mixer and a MIDI keyboard with actual built in sounds-quality of either doesn't matter much. I'm back using my 10 year old Windows machine because it DOES. Keyscape....Superior 3....literally not even a chorus level delay when playing simultaneously with hardware. The mac (over USB) can only get close at sub 256 sample buffer....but, that's on a single note test--once I start actually playing, there are seemingly random notes that downright flam at 256....
Do the test in an empty project in a DAW, because I"m also convinced that the majority have NO idea why the plug ins in your software mixer CAUSE the latency of your VIs....no template full of UAD plug ins--that will ALWAYS be latent, no matter what kind of interface or where your process buffer is set.
If you get hardware level consistent playback....do post what interface you're using and OS version. Like mine? Win7x64 RME PCI Multiface@512samples in Cubase....128samples outside.
I think Cubase uses a quarter of the process buffer for the VI buffer. That would equate 512 in Cubase to 128 stand alone....and explain why 1024 is imperceivable outside this test to me--it "only" moves it to 256--so, slightly mushier than hardware. Even 2048 will still yeild a 512 buffer for the instrument track. Still very playable.
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Post by popmann on Jan 18, 2018 16:40:07 GMT -6
No one has a hardware keyboard to compare?
Or no one can achieve consistent hardware latencies with an external interface?
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Post by mulmany on Jan 18, 2018 16:57:23 GMT -6
No one has a hardware keyboard to compare? Or no one can achieve consistent hardware latencies with an external interface? Are you talking the difference between midi over USB or midi through your interface into a VI back to analog. I am a little lost on what you are actually testing. Hardware midi(USB or DIN midi) into DAW back to the keyboard sound module. Vs. Hardware midi into DAW through VI out through monitors? |
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Post by Guitar on Jan 18, 2018 17:20:43 GMT -6
I've been beating up my modern i7 computer build with Thunderbolt interfaces and whatnot for low latency VI stuff, including guitar. I've been having some pretty good results.
Not sure if I could give some tests to help your question.
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Post by popmann on Jan 18, 2018 20:16:01 GMT -6
I'm talking entire loop. Press key to hearing sound. Playing a software instrument. I've done it for twenty years now and I've never experienced it work (as well) with external boxes. I was an outlier 20 year ago--now there's nothing BUT software instruments being made of any "studio worthy" quality really--and yet there's also only REALLY expensive PCI systems. I'm not concerned with MIDI PPQN sequencing and back out--I can give you the test to show how badly that fails every time on any system....I just mean playing the software instrument live from a keyboard (or eKit, but that's not what I do).
Yeah, Monkey--you say build...running Windows or Hackintosh? Part of this is because I'm looking at the next system and thinking I'd be better off, even if I want it to run Logic to build a Hack so I can use an RME or Lynx PCIe card. But, if Thunderbolt is only "worse" in benchmarks....ie, it's just slower on a scale that isn't something I'd notice....then that makes Apple's own machines more functionally appealing. I just can't imagine spending $4-5k on a new iMac and some Thunderbolt box to have MORE latency than I've had for 20 years of playing software instruments.
The test is simple....call up a percussive sound (acoustic piano or drums) on the hardware synth....and call up the most similar sound you have in software....play them simultaneously listening through the same hardware mixer (ideally analog but it can be the digital hardware of the interface-the ADC delay is going to be trivial and should be completely consistent) you should be able to play them and not hear even chorus level of delay. And do a lot of repeated notes....because while dropping the buffer super low on externals can get that first note timed fine, sometimes sitting and noodling for a minute will yield some hits chorusing, some flamming--while most are on. Which I find more off-putting than having a little latency, which can be fine, even desirable in an acoustic piano sample, depending on how it's edited....but, I digress....inconsistent is bad, bad, bad....always bad.
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Post by Guitar on Jan 19, 2018 7:16:12 GMT -6
Interesting test... I haven't tried that one yet. I just play piano, drums, or guitar and see if I can "feel" or "hear" the latency. Sometimes the answer gets close enough to "no" for me to go on playing and be happy.
Like you said a lot of these software instruments are "studio quality" I don't even use my hardware instruments as much these days. Even the better guitar amp stuff is getting good. (I still prefer real guitar gear.)
Yeah I have a by now, in computer years of course, next-best build of an i7 4790K quad core. I was trying to do a Hackintosh, but there was one thing that held me up from getting it working. I may or may not re-approach that in the future. So Windows 10, which is fine for me.
Thunderbolt interfaces are Clarett and Apollo.
You could also consider going the Dante/ethernet route, I saw the new Focusrite PCIe card that looks appealing to me. I hear those systems have low latencies. I think a lot of them work with Windows as well. That's the future, I guess, especially for larger systems or bigger facilities.
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Post by svart on Jan 19, 2018 8:50:05 GMT -6
I have no clue.
I've found that OS subsystems can have ridiculous variations from protocol to protocol, and even hardware port to hardware port, unless you're using a box that specifically has low latency drivers.. And even then it's up to the kernel and all the little processes going on to which has priority.
That's why I prefer windows, where I can go in and cut out every single process that isn't audio related and bring those latencies down.
However, there are some low level things I've been able to do in BIOS, that I'm not sure you can even monkey with anymore with the newer chips.
For my VI rig, I've bought some cheap laptop, and stripped out all the junk software and only run the MIDI-USB converter and nothing else and I get latency low enough to actually play without distraction. Once I've tracked that, I transfer to the big recording machine.
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