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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 10, 2018 17:50:25 GMT -6
Yeah - as a raw sound - just to me, I’d have to do more work to the Mk. That being said, I’m thinking of a dense, pop mix. I could hear that closer to the more intimate tape style stuff you do though wiz.
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Post by nick8801 on Jan 10, 2018 18:02:28 GMT -6
Man...I completely don’t understand how anyone would choose the mk67 out of those examples. Sorry, I just don’t. You seriously would use that exactly how it is? Yeah...you could layer that sound for days and it would sound gorgeous. All the others would give you some kind of weird buildup. I always hi pass vocals to get rid of that deep deep sub stuff anyway, so I definitely don't need it in a vocal mic regardless off how impressive it sounds. And I also don't always add that sparkle in either. Sometimes it's nice to just to get it all natural and pretty, and then toss a Pultec on the master fader to open it up in the mix. That dark but open thing is my sh*t. Listen to Rabbit Fur Coat by Jenny Lewis and The Watson Twins or this...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzemJAWaPSo That MKU67 has that vibe even though I know Jeff Tweedy uses an SM7.
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Post by ragan on Jan 10, 2018 21:03:31 GMT -6
I just listened again. I'm even more sure I'd want the MK67 clip. Like Nick said, I hear the voice, not the mic. The Upton and REDD (on this voice/take) just have way too much sizzle for me. I still like the SR modded CV4 too, but I'd take the MK67 as my first choice in a heartbeat.
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Post by ragan on Jan 10, 2018 21:10:31 GMT -6
This is really helpful to me, Adam, BTW. Cause I always kind of lust after a good 251 style mic and I've been really curious about the REDD too. And while I have no doubt they're both really nice mics, I can say from this comparison that they'd be a really bad match for my voice.
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Post by EmRR on Jan 10, 2018 21:17:39 GMT -6
Yeah, the 67 is dark and needs some treble lift, but that singer sounds sibilant in all the wrong ways on all 3 others in comparison. I think all 3 of those others make more work for me with that guy. Different guy, different question. And jeez, it's a solo vocal out of context, the question of what's around it makes all the difference. By itself, the 67 wins. The other three sound like there are 3-4 McDonald's drinking straws resonating at 10K right beside my ear, with bad need of a de-esser working hard.
It's the same thing that makes me never use my KM140's close, on anything except maybe bass or cello.
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Post by ragan on Jan 10, 2018 22:03:38 GMT -6
And the thing with the MK67 or a U67 is you could push 6k, you could push 10k, you could push the hell out of 15k...it’s never gonna get strident.
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Post by drsax on Jan 10, 2018 23:19:22 GMT -6
The MK67 has saved me bigtime in a couple sessions here. Was drop dead gorgeous on tenor male voice and was the easiest, least sibilant vocal track I’ve ever mixed. And also on a sax player whose sound was bright enough to peel the paint off your preamps... in both cases it was money to mix. It was so easy to manipulate without sounding bad or harsh. I find the same with the REDD even though it is voiced much differently. The REDD captures more high end, but it is SO easy to work with and takes Processing very well without getting sibilant.
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Post by drsax on Jan 10, 2018 23:30:25 GMT -6
So, I've been in the process of re-discovering my mic locker in terms of adding another tube LDC. I had the Upton and the REDD in to demo, and have an MKU67. I wish I could sing myself, but I can't, so I asked a guy I've recorded with prior to come over and test some mics. The vocals are somewhat "lacking", it was the best I could do on short notice, plus I've worked with this guy a bunch, so he was down for some mic testing. Anyways, it's not about the performance, or even this particular vocal, I'm just listening for mic qualities. Oh, and my room sounds like shit, so worst possible combination of bad vocals and room. I've contacted Jeff Hedback and have plans to gut this place. But I digress...I had created a 3 panel cove of 703/705 panels to act as sort of an isolation booth. Kinda just sounds boxy, though. I think the Upton and REDD sound similar. Is my MKU67 broken or is that what U67's sound like? Doesn't sound like a $10k microphone to me. At all. Also, what do you think of the modded CV4? A caveat, though. The CV4 file was recorded 3 years ago at my old studio. Still thought it would be interesting to throw it in there. MKU67
CV4 (SR Modded)
REDD
UptonMan - these mics are all so different. I think it all depends on what you’re looking for come mix time. For a darker sound that is non sibilant, I think the MK67 is great. For sounds with less mids and more extended upper range, the other three give you a wide variety of options. I dig them all - but the CV4 is a little less forgiving in the sibilant range. When I listen for sibilance, it’s not just about the presence of those frequencies, it’s about the tone of them. The REDD & Upton & MK67 don’t bother me in that range in these samples - the CV4 (although I liked all other characteristics of it) just sounds less appealing tonally in the sibilant range. It’s kind of like a good snare mic and what the sound of the high hat bleed sounds like. If it sounds great on the snare but the hihat bleed tone is ugly, then I’d rather use another mic. Generally speaking though, these are all great and very usable mics. It might be worth doing some tests with your other preamps with each mic as well. Those pairings might make a big difference on any given mic
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 11, 2018 8:19:10 GMT -6
Someone mentioned you can’t tell until you get it in the mix - which is true. And when you start stripping away frequencies and revealing the quality of each - that’s the big test. So, maybe the mk has some quality frequencies...but it sounds unnatural and boxy to me in the current state. And I guess it depends on where people want to start.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 11, 2018 8:55:48 GMT -6
I'd take the Redd here. That's the closest to the type of finished sound I generally look for. The CV4 sounds decent too, but sounds a little more eq'd to me. The 67 sounds like it'll need a bunch of work to be where I'd want it. It sounds muddy in the lower mids, and lacks bottom and top extension to my ears. The Upton feels like it lacks beef and has too much bite/sizzle, this would be my last pick.
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 11, 2018 9:37:30 GMT -6
I just listened again. I'm even more sure I'd want the MK67 clip. Like Nick said, I hear the voice, not the mic. The Upton and REDD (on this voice/take) just have way too much sizzle for me. I still like the SR modded CV4 too, but I'd take the MK67 as my first choice in a heartbeat. That's what I thought about the Upton/REDD, too. More sizzle in the REDD.
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 11, 2018 9:38:23 GMT -6
I'd take the Redd here. That's the closest to the type of finished sound I generally look for. The CV4 sounds decent too, but sounds a little more eq'd to me. The 67 sounds like it'll need a bunch of work to be where I'd want it. It sounds muddy in the lower mids, and lacks bottom and top extension to my ears. The Upton feels like it lacks beef and has too much bite/sizzle, this would be my last pick. That's pretty much what I think the MK67 sounds like - muddy in the lower mids and lacks bottom/top extension.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 11, 2018 9:44:12 GMT -6
It is informative to hear solo vocals, and indiehouse's comparison was cool, a good chance to get a taste of what these mics sound like. But let's not forget it's also weird to listen to flat vocals too. I've heard $15,000 vintage mics sound not so different than a $1,100 mic, yet there is something difficult to describe there, a subtle thing that makes all the difference in context. Remember, the solo mic is amplifying the same voice, so it' s inherently similar. That's why I try to feature a full mix in my shootouts on youtube, you get the bigger picture, and the small differences add up.
That's one thing about Neumann's, they usually sit well in mixes and take EQ nicely if needed. Vincent's MK67 I tried was a true Neumann, like a U87 on steroids. Isolated it sounded very good, with that 67 mid-forward thing, and on tracks, even better. The REDD is more revealing in the high end, but was definitely "not edgy or bright", just more top than some other mics, less so than some C12's I've heard. So it is as usual, a matter of the best fit for the voice being recorded. That's why U47's have such a great track record, they're pretty good on a larger number of people than some other classic mics, mainly because they're well balanced. People so often mention a vintage sound as being "warm", yet the U47's I've used would be better described as clean and clear. They were 3D transparent, and didn't boost frequencies much, in fact, they were a little thinner on the low end than 67's and the C12. The U67 definitely has a push, but if that push happens to enhance your sound, it's magic.
So, I wouldn't call the REDD sibilant, it does not accent sibilant frequencies and isn't harsh, but it does have an extended top, and may not suit some people. I thought the CV4 was quite impressive solo, but I think in tracks it would need a lot of EQ, (just a guess of course), the MK67 would work well in tracks, and so would the REDD and the Upton. They're all so good, you can't argue with anyone's preference. My feeling is the MK67 would work great in tracks with lots of instrumentation, the CV4 would be a problem mixing, the REDD would be my choice for tracks featuring a strong A list singer, like a Whitney Houston, and the Upton seems well suited to a forward yet slightly mellow vocalist like Beck. Just my thoughts, certainly not the final word.
Thanks for posting indiehouse.
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Post by Shannon on Jan 11, 2018 10:14:11 GMT -6
FYI That CV4 that was mention it was the one I did for TAPE OP article. That was about four ago technology has surpassed that original mod by miles if you want you can send it in to me and I can update I’m sure that you’ll be pleased with the result. Like you mentioned the new mod It’s a little more forgiving and a lot be bigger and better. If you like send it to me we can take care of it and bring it up to date I think that u will diig it.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 11, 2018 12:38:41 GMT -6
Can't wait to visit Casa Shannon next time I'm in town. I've got some interesting things to show you.
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Post by clumsycongregation on Jan 11, 2018 14:37:14 GMT -6
I also prefer the 67 for this voice. Doubtlessly.
On his voice the REDD Comes across as thin. I wonder what the setting were. “Contour” mode? Drive? I own the REDD and while it’s brighter than most of my mics, it still feels large bold on my voice.
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 11, 2018 15:06:56 GMT -6
I also prefer the 67 for this voice. Doubtlessly. On his voice the REDD Comes across as thin. I wonder what the setting were. “Contour” mode? Drive? I own the REDD and while it’s brighter than most of my mics, it still feels large bold on my voice. It might have been in drive mode, LC was not engaged, somewhere between 12-18" back off the mics.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 11, 2018 18:24:48 GMT -6
I obviously need to go back to taste school
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Post by clumsycongregation on Jan 11, 2018 19:41:13 GMT -6
I obviously need to go back to taste school Nah. There’s no wrong or right! We like what we like and our tastes change over time.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 11, 2018 19:51:46 GMT -6
Drive mode is quite different than standard settings on the REDD. It really affects things and isn't the best setting for a comparison, it really colors the sound. It's really cool, I like it a lot, but it's not a clean representation of the Chandler.
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 11, 2018 21:52:48 GMT -6
Drive mode is quite different than standard settings on the REDD. It really affects things and isn't the best setting for a comparison, it really colors the sound. It's really cool, I like it a lot, but it's not a clean representation of the Chandler. C'mon man. It's not THAT different. Still sounds like the REDD with a bit of hair on it. Kinda like the fuse mode on the RS124. Just adds a touch of aggression or something. I like it. Might have liked it better than normal, but they're not worlds apart.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 11, 2018 22:16:10 GMT -6
I don't disagree, but for purposes of a comparison, I think the standard setting would be a better example. I'm not a nit picker when it comes to shootouts. I get some good information from many shootouts where people criticize the methods, but in the case of listening carefully to high end mics for subtle and not so subtle differences, it would only be fair to use the Chandler in standard mode. Not a biggie, I enjoyed the comparisons a lot, but I found the Drive circuit to be almost as different as when I put a gain/distortion pedal on very low settings on a guitar amp, definitely a changed sound, although of course it's still identifiable as the same amp and guitar.
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Post by Vincent R. on Jan 11, 2018 22:30:11 GMT -6
indiehouse any particular reason you are looking at the Mics you are? What kind of sound are you looking for? The Upton will be on the brighter side, but with some body. The REDD will have some nice body, but with a really open top end. Then if you want there is low contour mode which is a nice balanced brighter sound. The MK67 is warm and neutral, but dark. I don’t know the CV4 well enough to comment. The Upton and the REDD are significant investments and have a lot of good competition in that category. Have you looked at any of the FleAs? The 47 is really nice. We all know I like their 49. It’s a bit early to tell, but I’m digging the RMS269 which has a similar warm feel to the MK67, but open like a U87ai.
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 14, 2018 12:31:16 GMT -6
indiehouse any particular reason you are looking at the Mics you are? What kind of sound are you looking for? The Upton will be on the brighter side, but with some body. The REDD will have some nice body, but with a really open top end. Then if you want there is low contour mode which is a nice balanced brighter sound. The MK67 is warm and neutral, but dark. I don’t know the CV4 well enough to comment. The Upton and the REDD are significant investments and have a lot of good competition in that category. Have you looked at any of the FleAs? The 47 is really nice. We all know I like their 49. It’s a bit early to tell, but I’m digging the RMS269 which has a similar warm feel to the MK67, but open like a U87ai. That's a good question. I'm in this weird zone of need. I'm primarily looking for a vocal mic, but I'm not a singer so I don't need something that fits my voice Specifically. I need something to be somewhat versatile though I don't run a commercial studio and don't need a different mic for every type of voice that could possibly walk through the door. I found the REDD and Upton to be really really nice mics, I just don't think that either could be my ONLY mic. I'm going to continue tweaking the MK67 to see where I can take it. I've also decided to build a U47 using an Aputis body and vintage style PSU case. I think I'm going to do a point to point build utilizing the AMI circuit and an EF800/802 tube. The EF12's seem like it might be a lot of money and trouble to track down a nice one. Also, after hearing this shootout (https://studio939.blogspot.com/2014/11/vocal-microphone-and-capsule-testing.html), I decided to land on a Heiserman HK47 capsule. That shootout is interesting because it also features the MK67, along with a Heiserman, Theirsch and Besszeez capsules in the 47 circuit. I'm saving a little (not a TON) over the cost of Stams 47, but I'll have a little nicer body/headbasket and PSU. And also the satisfaction of building something really nice myself.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 15, 2018 7:36:53 GMT -6
indiehouse any particular reason you are looking at the Mics you are? What kind of sound are you looking for? The Upton will be on the brighter side, but with some body. The REDD will have some nice body, but with a really open top end. Then if you want there is low contour mode which is a nice balanced brighter sound. The MK67 is warm and neutral, but dark. I don’t know the CV4 well enough to comment. The Upton and the REDD are significant investments and have a lot of good competition in that category. Have you looked at any of the FleAs? The 47 is really nice. We all know I like their 49. It’s a bit early to tell, but I’m digging the RMS269 which has a similar warm feel to the MK67, but open like a U87ai. That's a good question. I'm in this weird zone of need. I'm primarily looking for a vocal mic, but I'm not a singer so I don't need something that fits my voice Specifically. I need something to be somewhat versatile though I don't run a commercial studio and don't need a different mic for every type of voice that could possibly walk through the door. I found the REDD and Upton to be really really nice mics, I just don't think that either could be my ONLY mic. I'm going to continue tweaking the MK67 to see where I can take it. I've also decided to build a U47 using an Aputis body and vintage style PSU case. I think I'm going to do a point to point build utilizing the AMI circuit and an EF800/802 tube. The EF12's seem like it might be a lot of money and trouble to track down a nice one. Also, after hearing this shootout (https://studio939.blogspot.com/2014/11/vocal-microphone-and-capsule-testing.html), I decided to land on a Heiserman HK47 capsule. That shootout is interesting because it also features the MK67, along with a Heiserman, Theirsch and Besszeez capsules in the 47 circuit. I'm saving a little (not a TON) over the cost of Stams 47, but I'll have a little nicer body/headbasket and PSU. And also the satisfaction of building something really nice myself. www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/VMS
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