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Post by indiehouse on Jan 9, 2018 20:17:18 GMT -6
So, I've been in the process of re-discovering my mic locker in terms of adding another tube LDC. I had the Upton and the REDD in to demo, and have an MKU67. I wish I could sing myself, but I can't, so I asked a guy I've recorded with prior to come over and test some mics. The vocals are somewhat "lacking", it was the best I could do on short notice, plus I've worked with this guy a bunch, so he was down for some mic testing. Anyways, it's not about the performance, or even this particular vocal, I'm just listening for mic qualities. Oh, and my room sounds like shit, so worst possible combination of bad vocals and room. I've contacted Jeff Hedback and have plans to gut this place. But I digress...I had created a 3 panel cove of 703/705 panels to act as sort of an isolation booth. Kinda just sounds boxy, though. I think the Upton and REDD sound similar. Is my MKU67 broken or is that what U67's sound like? Doesn't sound like a $10k microphone to me. At all. Also, what do you think of the modded CV4? A caveat, though. The CV4 file was recorded 3 years ago at my old studio. Still thought it would be interesting to throw it in there. MKU67
CV4 (SR Modded)
REDD
Upton
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 10, 2018 9:34:28 GMT -6
Quick listen thoughts REDD & Upton have an intimacy and soothing quality show how the voice and your skills have matured over the years compared to CV4, CV4 has a more upfront in your face quality with a much bigger lowend, would love to here a more current clip of this one to judge what I'm hearing is effects of room and maturity! I get why you might ask is the Mk67 broken, freq balance in the highs is similar to CV4, but the lowend is blah! The REDD and Upton have similar life and dimensional quality & CV4 has these but different, MK67 paper thin. I think this MK67 suffers from the inconsistency in modern 870/87/67 Capsules might try the other side and if it's an 87 build putting 87 electronics back in. MK67 electronics might be more sensitive to the problems in modern 870/87/67 Capsules and require some tuning?
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 10, 2018 10:41:03 GMT -6
Quick listen thoughts REDD & Upton have an intimacy and soothing quality show how the voice and your skills have matured over the years compared to CV4, CV4 has a more upfront in your face quality with a much bigger lowend, would love to here a more current clip of this one to judge what I'm hearing is effects of room and maturity! I get why you might ask is the Mk67 broken, freq balance in the highs is similar to CV4, but the lowend is blah! The REDD and Upton have similar life and dimensional quality & CV4 has these but different, MK67 paper thin. I think this MK67 suffers from the inconsistency in modern 870/87/67 Capsules might try the other side and if it's an 87 build putting 87 electronics back in. MK67 electronics might be more sensitive to the problems in modern 870/87/67 Capsules and require some tuning? It's TLM67 based, but I've already sold the guts to Vincent. Sometimes I second guess this MKU67. I hear glowing reviews about how this mic sounds just like a U67, but I just can't believe that this is what a U67 sounds like. Granted, if I boost the snot at 10k, it sounds better. But still, I'd rather have a mic that is "right" from the get-go. Also, I sold my CV4 mod a couple of years ago to raise funds for a down payment on a new home. I have a chance to buy it back now. Just don't know if I should or not. A little top end boost on that CV4 sounds real good. It's kinda got a smooth mid range/presence compared to the others. I can't tell how much of that is performance/room and how much is mic?
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 10, 2018 10:44:23 GMT -6
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 10, 2018 11:40:03 GMT -6
Quick listen thoughts REDD & Upton have an intimacy and soothing quality show how the voice and your skills have matured over the years compared to CV4, CV4 has a more upfront in your face quality with a much bigger lowend, would love to here a more current clip of this one to judge what I'm hearing is effects of room and maturity! I get why you might ask is the Mk67 broken, freq balance in the highs is similar to CV4, but the lowend is blah! The REDD and Upton have similar life and dimensional quality & CV4 has these but different, MK67 paper thin. I think this MK67 suffers from the inconsistency in modern 870/87/67 Capsules might try the other side and if it's an 87 build putting 87 electronics back in. MK67 electronics might be more sensitive to the problems in modern 870/87/67 Capsules and require some tuning? It's TLM67 based, but I've already sold the guts to Vincent. Sometimes I second guess this MKU67. I hear glowing reviews about how this mic sounds just like a U67, but I just can't believe that this is what a U67 sounds like. Granted, if I boost the snot at 10k, it sounds better. But still, I'd rather have a mic that is "right" from the get-go. Also, I sold my CV4 mod a couple of years ago to raise funds for a down payment on a new home. I have a chance to buy it back now. Just don't know if I should or not. A little top end boost on that CV4 sounds real good. It's kinda got a smooth mid range/presence compared to the others. I can't tell how much of that is performance/room and how much is mic? Yeah some of MK67' builds nail the 67 sound, feel & Vibe others just don't move you, that's why I suspect the Capsules in consistency, Great Neumann LDC vocal mics have dimension & Body, K67 is different from K47 which is different from M7 but none Sound paper thin! The Shannon CV4 is a different beast all its own, and re affirms my long term strategy of buying a couple of budget reproductions of tube mics and having him do his magic! On that subject my favorite 67 recreation is his Modded 67 take Capsule in the Korby KAT Bradd had , so maybe talk to him about the MK67? With the Upton and the REDD and Jeff adding his magic and math to the room You've got a pretty good starting point, but I understand the desire for more vocal magic, but I'm going to suggest maybe try some of the less traveled path vocal mics, like Sony, Gefell , Euland, Milab, etc. I know it sounds weird but some of my happiest Studio owner clients in my gear pimp days were those who found something nobody else was using and not going down the search for the useual suspects. Yeah I know call me the Audio Heritic, but That new FET from Mark at SAMARA that thing has me licking my lips like the REDD did.
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Post by ragan on Jan 10, 2018 11:48:22 GMT -6
Funny how differently we hear things!
I would rather have that MK67 take as a starting point any day of the week and twice on Sundays. It's detailed but completely un-harsh. You could sculpt it into whatever you wanted, which is kind of the thing with 67s. The REDD and Upton, to me ear, are just way too scooped and too bright for a starting point. Totally subjective of course. But this is what I'd expect, sonically, when comparing a mellow, mid forward U67 to bright, airy, more scooped mics like a C800 (close to the REDD) and a 251.
And before we start internet myths here! we should probably actually hear several MK67s compared to one another. I've seen no actual evidence that they're inconsistent, just conjecture. And if they are, I'd suspect the individually handmade transformers rather than the Neumann capsules, myself.
EDIT: and yeah, that SR modded CV4 sounds nice. I'd put that in a tie, for my ear, with the MK67 on that guy's voice.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 10, 2018 11:53:47 GMT -6
Funny how differently we hear things! I would rather have that MK67 take as a starting point any day of the week and twice on Sundays. It's detailed but completely un-harsh. You could sculpt it into whatever you wanted, which is kind of the thing with 67s. The REDD and Upton, to me ear, are just way too scooped and too bright for a starting point. Totally subjective of course. But this is what I'd expect, sonically, when comparing a mellow, mid forward U67 to bright, airy, more scooped mics like a C800 (close to the REDD) and a 251. And before we start internet myths here! we should probably actually hear several MK67s compared to one another. I've seen no actual evidence that they're inconsistent, just conjecture. And if they are, I'd suspect the individually handmade transformers rather than the Neumann capsules, myself. EDIT: and yeah, that SR modded CV4 sounds nice. I'd put that in a tie, for my ear, with the MK67 on that guy's voice. I have heard a few, but never 2 side by side but yes everybody hears things differently, we all listen for different things, the fact we accept that here is what makes this place work !
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Post by ragan on Jan 10, 2018 12:25:41 GMT -6
Funny how differently we hear things! I would rather have that MK67 take as a starting point any day of the week and twice on Sundays. It's detailed but completely un-harsh. You could sculpt it into whatever you wanted, which is kind of the thing with 67s. The REDD and Upton, to me ear, are just way too scooped and too bright for a starting point. Totally subjective of course. But this is what I'd expect, sonically, when comparing a mellow, mid forward U67 to bright, airy, more scooped mics like a C800 (close to the REDD) and a 251. And before we start internet myths here! we should probably actually hear several MK67s compared to one another. I've seen no actual evidence that they're inconsistent, just conjecture. And if they are, I'd suspect the individually handmade transformers rather than the Neumann capsules, myself. EDIT: and yeah, that SR modded CV4 sounds nice. I'd put that in a tie, for my ear, with the MK67 on that guy's voice. I have heard a few, but never 2 side by side but yes everybody hears things differently, we all listen for different things, the fact we accept that here is what makes this place work ! Indeed. And yeah, you’d have to do an actual comparison to know re: inconsistency. For example, Martin thought my MK67 sounded better than Vincent’s but that’s comparing mine, on my voice, through my chain, in my room, in a completed mix, to hearing his chain in his room on Vincent's voice raw. There’s just absolutely no way to know what’s making what difference with so, so many variables.
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 10, 2018 13:29:58 GMT -6
Funny how differently we hear things! I would rather have that MK67 take as a starting point any day of the week and twice on Sundays. It's detailed but completely un-harsh. You could sculpt it into whatever you wanted, which is kind of the thing with 67s. The REDD and Upton, to me ear, are just way too scooped and too bright for a starting point. Totally subjective of course. But this is what I'd expect, sonically, when comparing a mellow, mid forward U67 to bright, airy, more scooped mics like a C800 (close to the REDD) and a 251. And before we start internet myths here! we should probably actually hear several MK67s compared to one another. I've seen no actual evidence that they're inconsistent, just conjecture. And if they are, I'd suspect the individually handmade transformers rather than the Neumann capsules, myself. EDIT: and yeah, that SR modded CV4 sounds nice. I'd put that in a tie, for my ear, with the MK67 on that guy's voice. I sent back the Upton and REDD. The REDD was real nice, but like you, I found it a bit too bright. You think the CV4 and the MK67 are pretty similar? I'm trying to decide whether to buy it back or not. I kinda feel I can get that sound out of the MK67. Then again, I could get that sound right out the gate with the CV4 and sell the MK67 (and pocket a grand). Does the CV4 sound flat or 3D to you?
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 10, 2018 14:19:45 GMT -6
Holy crap. That might be the best advertisement for Shannon I've ever heard. THAT'S what I want a mic to sound like when recorded. It might have a little extra lower mid info, but I want that - I can dig that out if needed. Dude, no question what sounded the best to me.
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Post by EmRR on Jan 10, 2018 15:14:18 GMT -6
Having used TLM67 electronics and tube electronics both pretty evenly, I assess the capsule to be very good in mine, better than many things I have. The electronics difference is night and day.
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 10, 2018 15:17:50 GMT -6
Holy crap. That might be the best advertisement for Shannon I've ever heard. THAT'S what I want a mic to sound like when recorded. It might have a little extra lower mid info, but I want that - I can dig that out if needed. Dude, no question what sounded the best to me. You think the CV4 mod has depth? To be honest, I'm trying to be better at critically evaluating mics, and depth is something I'm trying to learn to listen for.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 10, 2018 15:55:55 GMT -6
I think I don’t really know what depth in a mono signal is...but I hear more bottom, more pronounced lower mids and flatter top end...this is just the philosophy I’ve come to, but I want a mic that’s not overly sibilant, stays flat and consistent in the 1-3kHz region when pushed and a slightly bigger in the 100-350hz range. Then o can adjust where needed with EQ. But truthfully, if it were a completely flat mic that didn’t pinch I’d be totally fine.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 10, 2018 15:58:15 GMT -6
I also know what has caused me problems in mixes before - brighter mics seem to cause me more problems.
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 10, 2018 15:59:02 GMT -6
I think I don’t really know what depth in a mono signal is...but I hear more bottom, more pronounced lower mids and flatter top end...this is just the philosophy I’ve come to, but I want a mic that’s not overly sibilant, stays flat and consistent in the 1-3kHz region when pushed and a slightly bigger in the 100-350hz range. Then o can adjust where needed with EQ. But truthfully, if it were a completely flat mic that didn’t pinch I’d be totally fine. Yeah, I admit I'm not sure what to listen for to determine if a mic is flat or if it's 3D/has depth. Also, what do you define lower mids as?
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 10, 2018 16:00:17 GMT -6
I hear the CV4 mod as being dark, yet open on top. Still has an air to it.
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Post by ragan on Jan 10, 2018 16:08:38 GMT -6
To my thinking, you don’t get “depth” out of a mono signal. You get it from mix choice or ambience (real or simulated).
What I want out of a good mic is detail and musicality and ZERO harshness/pointiness. The source may have its own pointy/harsh issues but I don’t want the mic contributing its own.
In your examples, I’d want to start with the CV4 or MK67. With EQ, they could be made to sound a lot alike I think.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 10, 2018 16:23:25 GMT -6
I think I don’t really know what depth in a mono signal is...but I hear more bottom, more pronounced lower mids and flatter top end...this is just the philosophy I’ve come to, but I want a mic that’s not overly sibilant, stays flat and consistent in the 1-3kHz region when pushed and a slightly bigger in the 100-350hz range. Then o can adjust where needed with EQ. But truthfully, if it were a completely flat mic that didn’t pinch I’d be totally fine. Yeah, I admit I'm not sure what to listen for to determine if a mic is flat or if it's 3D/has depth. Also, what do you define lower mids as? 150-400 ish. The meat.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 10, 2018 16:33:17 GMT -6
Here’s how I hear the spectrum (I’m spitballin’ here)
Sub - 20-55 Thump - 55-90 Lowend - 90-200 Meat - 200-500 Boxy - 500-700 Nasal - 700-1.5 kHz Root Canal - 1.5 - 4 Shine 5 - 7 Top - 7 up.
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Post by nick8801 on Jan 10, 2018 16:44:14 GMT -6
I'm with Ragan on this one...That MKU67 is honing in right on the emotion of your voice. Like I'm not hearing a mic, just the words. The Upton sorta does that, but I'm missing some of the body of your lyrics. The cv4 and the Redd sound like microphones. In other words I hear what the mic is doing rather than what your voice is doing. I really dig your voice btw.
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Post by wiz on Jan 10, 2018 17:15:45 GMT -6
I think the MKU67 is ahead by miles here for a straight off the mic sound.... I could fit that into the mix no probs... all the other three, I would be using EQ to repair them.
Don't listen for a finished sound, listen for a tracked sound.
Cheers
Wiz
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 10, 2018 17:29:27 GMT -6
Man...I completely don’t understand how anyone would choose the mk67 out of those examples. Sorry, I just don’t. You seriously would use that exactly how it is?
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 10, 2018 17:34:00 GMT -6
When you pull up a single mike track on well set up monitors you can get a sense of depth or dimension is it real ? I don't know but all the highly sought great mics have it! Most of the frequency stuff can be fixed to a limited degree with the right EQ, but remember the right EQ for frequency balance can be destructive to phase response. To hear the concept of dimension put up a couple of mikes at the same time play them back on monitors you know and switch between the mics you will start to hear it!
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Post by wiz on Jan 10, 2018 17:44:31 GMT -6
Man...I completely don’t understand how anyone would choose the mk67 out of those examples. Sorry, I just don’t. You seriously would use that exactly how it is? Yes I would.. if its mic preamp A-D. Then depending on the track there would be a couple of cuts... to the low mids, and maybe some sparkle on top... Its not overemphasised in the top end for me, like the others sounded (or some of them) or scooped... Its just the sound of a good mic, with someone singing up close, in perhaps not the greatest room, just like my room is 8) Cheers Wiz
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Post by ragan on Jan 10, 2018 17:45:23 GMT -6
Man...I completely don’t understand how anyone would choose the mk67 out of those examples. Sorry, I just don’t. You seriously would use that exactly how it is? As a raw sound? Absolutely. I don’t want all that pre-cooked sizzle of the super airy ones, personally. I’m gonna squeeze and sculpt and it’s gonna be compressed and limited in the mixing/mastering and I just want smooth detail and musicality coming off the mic. For me, the MK67 and CV4 are delivering that. The others, on that voice, are all sizzle no steak. Put em all on a different voice of course and I’d have a different opinion I’m sure.
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