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Post by rowmat on Dec 27, 2017 5:52:22 GMT -6
Any clone labelled 1073, 1084, 1081 etc. that does not include the original Neve EQ circuit AND a line transformer input that allows the EQ to be used standalone (for mixing etc) is using the Neve nomenclature falsely and all clone manufacturers should cease and desist from doing so. The EQ is a major part of the 'Neve' sound and without it you're getting the apples without the pie and the cream. A Neve 1073 and a 1084 without EQ wind up being basically the same thing, a Neve 1290 micpre. Even then many clone manufacturers use the lower gain (and cheaper) 1272 amplifier circuit and still have the audacity to try and associate it with a 1073. It's like saying because my VW Beetle has the same door handles, indicator stalk and rearview mirror as a 1971 Porsche I'll advertise it as a Porsche when I sell it. But of course I would be called out as a fraudster immediately. So it's time to hold these "clonester's" to account! Cease the misleading nomenclature! How many users of the originals don't engage the EQ every time they use them? I would suggest almost none. hmm, you got me interested in your gear so i looked on your website. an impressive array of gear. did you fail your own test ?  . Heritage Audio 8173 Pre/EQ (Neve style Class ‘A’ 1081) x 2 Heritage Audio 6673 Pre/EQ (Neve style Class ‘A’) x 2 Mercury Audio Bruder – Tube (Telefunken V72s/V76M style) CAPI VP28 (API Style) x 4 CAPI VP312 (API Style) x 2 Sound Skulptor EQP573 (Neve 1084 style EQ) x 2 Seventh Circle Audio N72 (Neve Style) x 4 Seventh Circle Audio J99 (John Hardy Twin Servo Style) x 2 Seventh Circle Audio C84 (Millenia Style) x 2 You'll notice I used the term 'Style' rather than just calling them 1073/1084/1081 etc. A Neve Class A 1081 never existed in the real world (the 1081's were all Class AB) hence my use of "Neve Style" Class A 1081. Hence Heritage's use of 8173 which refers to it as hybrid. So it's neither a straight 1073 or a straight 1081 but uses the Neve Class 'A' 1290 preamp circuit from the 1073 and the Neve EQ circuit topology from the 1081 (minus the 1081's adjustable 'Q' and low pass filters). I thought the Seventh Circle Audio N72's used the Neve 1290 circuit (due to its higher gain) but it appears they do use the two stage Neve 1272 circuit but a higher gain version as originally used in Neve's talkback mic preamp. SCA run the two stages back to back and split the gain equally between both which Geoff Tanner who worked at Neve apparently said was implemeneted correctly. The Sound Skulptor EQP573 uses a Carnhill inductor based EQ circuit and follows the Neve topology with the same EQ points as the 1084 plus some additional high pass, mid and shelving points. Although it uses '73' in the model name it has more EQ points than a 1084. To be frank it doesn't sound very Neve like on its own (it is rather hard in the high end and standard has no input or output transformers) UNTIL it's inserted in-between the input and output transformer of 1290 style preamp which it is both designed to do and has the provision for via a 'preamp insert' connector. Once used this way it follows the Neve Micpre/EQ circuit topology. I have modified a pair of my N72's to allow for this EQ to be used this way. Most manufacturers make current clones of Neve's/API/Quad Eight/Sphere/Telefunkens etc etc. The issue IMO is not what manufacturers name their products as such unless they are using very specific name/model branding which indicates some kind of historical authenticity then the fundamental specs/features and especially sound of the product they are selling should pretty closely match the namesake they are using as a basis for their sales pitch. Using nomenclature such as "1073" or especially "1081" in the actual name of a Neve clone preamp that DOESN'T INCLUDE EQ CIRCUITRY is highly misleading in terms of the final sound that can be extracted from the product. For instance Neve 1081's were very highly prized as killer drum EQ's. While the 1081 preamp is fine on its own that's not the reason 1081's were famous. It was their EQ. |
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Post by gouge on Dec 27, 2017 7:41:06 GMT -6
i think its pretty ordinary to say on a forum "So it's time to hold these "clonester's" to account! Cease the misleading nomenclature!"
then fill your studio with said gear and use your own nomenclature to describe your studio gear.
i hate to be the one to call you out but it's there in plain sight.
now this thread is completely derailed. which to use more nomenclature is trolling on your part.
have you actually used any of the preamps i asked about? if you have then talking about them might put things back on track.
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Post by ericn on Dec 27, 2017 7:41:23 GMT -6
Let's not forget the old iron! No modern clone, even the faithful nails the sound of those old transformers! A couple of times we have pulled the iron from my Dan Alexander 1272 recreations with vintage transformers pulled from old consoles and switched them with various clones and it's i opening something in those old transformers just makes everything huge vs bigger for the modern reproductions!
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Post by EmRR on Dec 27, 2017 8:06:44 GMT -6
People seem to get hung up on anything with 1073 in the title and their BS detector then promptly malfunctions. It's really the marketing crowds that should be held responsible. it is possible to apply genres to preamps. like comparing bands. what camp is it in..... 1073, api. same goes for the hairball gold. i for a minute don't think it is a jensen preamp or a hardy. but is it in the same camp... sure. so i know what i'm getting into. it's a little condescending to suggest that people are uninformed with typology or blinded by marketing. maybe try and be a little more open minded. Well...,if you can apply the genre and people had their eyes open, RCA BA-31/33B/41/43/71/72 would sell for a whole lot more than it does. I've also sold people RCA tube gear (NOT OP-6's) and seen them promptly unload all their Telefunken preamps. Same thing with prices there. |
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Post by rowmat on Dec 27, 2017 8:50:25 GMT -6
i think its pretty ordinary to say on a forum "So it's time to hold these "clonester's" to account! Cease the misleading nomenclature!" then fill your studio with said gear and use your own nomenclature to describe your studio gear. i hate to be the one to call you out but it's there in plain sight. now this thread is completely derailed. which to use more nomenclature is trolling on your part. have you actually used any of the preamps i asked about? if you have then talking about them might put things back on track. Firstly I acknowledge I did indeed derail your thread which I apologise for. Secondly I can't comment on the Hairball Copper or the AML's specifically but in relation to the AML1073 versus the AML1081 comparison the Class A Neve designs (1073's etc) are somewhat darker, thicker than the Class AB Neves (1081's etc) Class AB Neve's tend to sound a little more present and (IMO) they fall somewhere in between the Class A Neve's and API's sonically which is not a bad thing. So the Class AB's are a little more lively for drums, electric guitars etc. All this assumes no EQ of course. The original Neve 1081 uses quite a large output transformer while the Class AB Neve broadcast modules (33114, 33115 etc) use smaller output transformers (even more presence IMO) and are great on elec guitars, snares, acoustics, vocals etc. However (to flog a dead horse) much of the desirability of these Neves are in their EQ stages. NOTE: I doubt there's many recordings in existence that have been tracked/mixed using 1073's and 1081's without using their EQ's. If someone can recommend to you a decent 1081 EQ plugin for example, maybe tracking with a 1081 type pre and then EQ'ing the rest with a 1081 EQ plugin may get you close to the real thing overall however I can't say as I have not used any 1081 style EQ plugins. |
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Post by ericn on Dec 27, 2017 8:59:39 GMT -6
it is possible to apply genres to preamps. like comparing bands. what camp is it in..... 1073, api. same goes for the hairball gold. i for a minute don't think it is a jensen preamp or a hardy. but is it in the same camp... sure. so i know what i'm getting into. it's a little condescending to suggest that people are uninformed with typology or blinded by marketing. maybe try and be a little more open minded. Well...,if you can apply the genre and people had their eyes open, RCA BA-31/33B/41/43/71/72 would sell for a whole lot more than it does. I've also sold people RCA tube gear (NOT OP-6's) and seen them promptly unload all their Telefunken preamps. Same thing with prices there. Though we hate admit it we are as an industry as fashion driven as women's shoes! |
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Post by gouge on Dec 27, 2017 9:14:28 GMT -6
it is possible to apply genres to preamps. like comparing bands. what camp is it in..... 1073, api. same goes for the hairball gold. i for a minute don't think it is a jensen preamp or a hardy. but is it in the same camp... sure. so i know what i'm getting into. it's a little condescending to suggest that people are uninformed with typology or blinded by marketing. maybe try and be a little more open minded. Well...,if you can apply the genre and people had their eyes open, RCA BA-31/33B/41/43/71/72 would sell for a whole lot more than it does. I've also sold people RCA tube gear (NOT OP-6's) and seen them promptly unload all their Telefunken preamps. Same thing with prices there. i have a transistor based RCA type pre. never got it to work properly so it needs some more tweaks or a good tech. a ba2c diy type is on my radar. |
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Dec 27, 2017 9:33:17 GMT -6
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Post by jcoutu1 on Dec 27, 2017 9:33:17 GMT -6
Well...,if you can apply the genre and people had their eyes open, RCA BA-31/33B/41/43/71/72 would sell for a whole lot more than it does. If I had the time and knowledge for DIY, I'd love to get my hands on this stuff. Finding them already rehabbed and ready for service seems to come at a different price point though. |
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Post by EmRR on Dec 27, 2017 9:38:31 GMT -6
Well...,if you can apply the genre and people had their eyes open, RCA BA-31/33B/41/43/71/72 would sell for a whole lot more than it does. If I had the time and knowledge for DIY, I'd love to get my hands on this stuff. Finding them already rehabbed and ready for service seems to come at a different price point though. Still less than others in the 'genre'. |
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Post by ericn on Dec 27, 2017 9:44:45 GMT -6
RCA suffers from the delution of the brand because of the consumer products, this always suprised me because for awhile hear in the states anything Telefunken was priced like a Ferrari & most of it was consumer junk! Go figure!
Doug do you think the relationship between Studer / Neumann & Neve with European broadcasters & the Standards set by the European Government Broadcasters has helped keep the value of Vintage European broadcast equipment higher than US equipment of the same era? We seam to go through some fads based on modern interpretations of Old US broadcast equipment ( langvin & Gates)!
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Post by gouge on Dec 27, 2017 10:11:43 GMT -6
Some of the rca stuff was actually based on Australian designed stuff.
I guess cloning has been around for at least 115 years.
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Dec 27, 2017 10:38:09 GMT -6
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Post by ericn on Dec 27, 2017 10:38:09 GMT -6
Some of the rca stuff was actually based on Australian designed stuff. I guess cloning has been around for at least 115 years. m I think we have pretty much reached the point in Analog audio design where anybody who try's to hype their product " as all new revolutionary design " is setting themselves up for a major skewering! There is nothing wrong with admitting you have refined or fused designs of older gear, he'll it might educate your customers! |
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Dec 27, 2017 11:30:59 GMT -6
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Post by EmRR on Dec 27, 2017 11:30:59 GMT -6
Some of the rca stuff was actually based on Australian designed stuff. I guess cloning has been around for at least 115 years. Wrong. It's the other way around. |
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Dec 27, 2017 11:33:58 GMT -6
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Post by EmRR on Dec 27, 2017 11:33:58 GMT -6
Doug do you think the relationship between Studer / Neumann & Neve with European broadcasters & the Standards set by the European Government Broadcasters has helped keep the value of Vintage European broadcast equipment higher than US equipment of the same era? It's the Beatles it's the beatles it's the beatles. That's been the trajectory from the start. |
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Post by EmRR on Dec 27, 2017 11:42:24 GMT -6
RCA suffers from the delution of the brand because of the consumer products We seam to go through some fads based on modern interpretations of Old US broadcast equipment ( langvin & Gates)! RCA made so much stuff, in so many fields, for so many DECADES, there's good, average, and bad. Like any big company. No one gave a rat's ass about UA stuff before the modern UA company started up. Honestly, the Coil/Gates is a welcome surprise, no one anyone other than I really talked about it openly. Langevin has been chased more because the logo looks like the Western Electric logo, than on anything having to do with what could be found about what it sounded like. The Collins stuff is built better than anyone's equipment, it's not talked about so much, and a lot of it is on par with the best as well. Like you said, it's fashion. |
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Post by rowmat on Dec 27, 2017 15:39:07 GMT -6
i'm looking at adding a neve module to my mic preamp setup. in budget range are the hairball copper aml ez1081pre aml ez1073pre i know the aml is new but has anyone had any ears on experience with any of the above and can make a comparison of sound. This is more of a technical discussion but it covers the Neve 1081, the Class A's (1073's etc) and the 50 series Class AB broadcast channel amplifiers and their various differences. www.technicalaudio.com/reading/neve1081/1081.htmlThe Class AB modules are predominately Class A with the exception of the Class AB output amplifier that drives the output transformer. 'Generally' it's the Class A Neve's that people associate with the 'Neve sound' but someone who has spent much time on a Neve desk full of 1081 modules may argue that point. If you could manage to swing to a Neve 1073/1084 style pre with EQ you would be much more in the Neve ballpark than just with the pre. AML used to do a DIY 19" rack version of the EZ1073 with EQ. wiki.diyrecordingequipment.com/projects/ez1073-500-diy-neve-preamp/ |
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Post by gouge on Dec 27, 2017 17:12:54 GMT -6
pretty sure the ez1073 is still on their website.
at $1000 per channel it's not in my budget.
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 27, 2017 18:10:02 GMT -6
Any clone labelled 1073, 1084, 1081 etc. that does not include the original Neve EQ circuit AND a line transformer input that allows the EQ to be used standalone (for mixing etc) is using the Neve nomenclature falsely and all clone manufacturers should cease and desist from doing so. The EQ is a major part of the 'Neve' sound and without it you're getting the apples without the pie and the cream. A Neve 1073 and a 1084 without EQ wind up being basically the same thing, a Neve 1290 micpre. Even then many clone manufacturers use the lower gain (and cheaper) 1272 amplifier circuit and still have the audacity to try and associate it with a 1073. It's like saying because my VW Beetle has the same door handles, indicator stalk and rearview mirror as a 1971 Porsche I'll advertise it as a Porsche when I sell it. But of course I would be called out as a fraudster immediately. So it's time to hold these "clonester's" to account! Cease the misleading nomenclature! How many users of the originals don't engage the EQ every time they use them? I would suggest almost none. Hey, my old '50s VW van with the flip-up semaphore turn signals had a Porshe steering gearbox. As I discovered when I had to replace it.... |
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Post by jayson on Dec 27, 2017 19:19:13 GMT -6
pretty sure the ez1073 is still on their website. at $1000 per channel it's not in my budget. Yeah, it is. But it's really nowhere near $1000 if you're willing to build it yourself. Figure $500 for the kit, $150 for one of Dan Deurloo's cases and maybe another $100 max for the Marconi knobs- considerably less if you're willing to use something else (but where would the fun in THAT be?).There's really no reason you should be much beyond $750. And, given how simple the colourbook guide makes it, building it is half the fun. Best of all, if you go that route, there's bragging rights to consider- there's simply no arguing that you're using anything other than the real McCoy. Seems like that's kind of important in this particular thread! Seriously though, it's getting to the point where every time I see a really nice piece of gear and I find myself saying "Too bad that's not a kit, I'd love to build one". It's kind of like eating peanuts, once you get started it's hard to stop! So far - in a very low key way- I've already asked Tim Farrant, Evanna Manley and a few other folks in that league if they would ever consider offering any of their products as a kit...no takers so far! |
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Post by ericn on Dec 27, 2017 19:32:02 GMT -6
pretty sure the ez1073 is still on their website. at $1000 per channel it's not in my budget. Yeah, it is. But it's really nowhere near $1000 if you're willing to build it yourself. Figure $500 for the kit, $150 for one of Dan Deurloo's cases and maybe another $100 max for the Marconi knobs- considerably less if you're willing to use something else (but where would the fun in THAT be?).There's really no reason you should be much beyond $750. And, given how simple the colourbook guide makes it, building it is half the fun. Best of all, if you go that route, there's bragging rights to consider- there's simply no arguing that you're using anything other than the real McCoy. Seems like that's kind of important in this particular thread! Seriously though, it's getting to the point where every time I see a really nice piece of gear and I find myself saying "Too bad that's not a kit, I'd love to build one". It's kind of like eating peanuts, once you get started it's hard to stop! So far - in a very low key way- I've already asked Tim Farrant, Evanna Manley and a few other folks in that league if they would ever consider offering any of their products as a kit...no takers so far! The 500 series is only assembled! The rackmount is kit and, I believe everything but the case! |
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Post by gouge on Dec 27, 2017 19:49:03 GMT -6
ez1073 kit - 379 pounds = 653 aud.
postage - 20 pounds = 35 aud
collective cases 1073 - 150 usd = 192 aud
postage - 50 usd = 64 aud
bank fees and bits and pieces at my end. - 20 aud
total = 964 aud
so for the 5th time......... actually,
i give up.
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Dec 27, 2017 19:58:15 GMT -6
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Post by adamjbrass on Dec 27, 2017 19:58:15 GMT -6
I almost never use the 1073 EQ
i use the Dual channel "style" Neve 10xx preamps FAR more often
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 27, 2017 21:04:03 GMT -6
i think its pretty ordinary to say on a forum "So it's time to hold these "clonester's" to account! Cease the misleading nomenclature!" then fill your studio with said gear and use your own nomenclature to describe your studio gear. i hate to be the one to call you out but it's there in plain sight. now this thread is completely derailed. which to use more nomenclature is trolling on your part. have you actually used any of the preamps i asked about? if you have then talking about them might put things back on track. It's not "trolling". It's about TRUTH IN ADVERTISING. There's a (very big) difference. |
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Post by jayson on Dec 27, 2017 21:05:05 GMT -6
ez1073 kit - 379 pounds = 653 aud. postage - 20 pounds = 35 aud collective cases 1073 - 150 usd = 192 aud postage - 50 usd = 64 aud bank fees and bits and pieces at my end. - 20 aud total = 964 aud so for the 5th time......... actually, i give up. Ahh - down under. My bad; I didn't realize that -  I could certainly see that being a bit of a complication. You won't be disappointed by the 500 series units though, and they definitely won't break the bank. |
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 27, 2017 21:07:13 GMT -6
ez1073 kit - 379 pounds = 653 aud. postage - 20 pounds = 35 aud collective cases 1073 - 150 usd = 192 aud postage - 50 usd = 64 aud bank fees and bits and pieces at my end. - 20 aud total = 964 aud so for the 5th time......... actually, i give up. So you're willing to compromise your work to save a few pennies? "i give up." Actually, no, I don't. |
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I could certainly see that being a bit of a complication. You won't be disappointed by the 500 series units though, and they definitely won't break the bank.