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Post by stormymondays on Dec 22, 2017 8:06:14 GMT -6
Today I had a brief power surge at the studio. Power went out for about one second and then back again... and my RME Fireface 802 started to smoke through the XLR connections!!! Talk about a panic moment!
I'll be dealing with the electric company and my insurance to get it replaced. Supposedly the electrical installation was protected against surges, and I had the Fireface plugged into an APC SurgeArrest, but it still happened.
What should I buy so I can be totally protected and get "clean" current in the studio? I don't have noise problems with the studio equipment, but I can sometimes hear cyclic noises in the guitar amps, that always have the same "signature", so I know there are at least some harmonics or disturbances in the power lines. I don't have a console so the power requirements are not huge. I suppose I should measure that.
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Post by plinker on Dec 22, 2017 8:36:33 GMT -6
Sorry about your surge.
You’ll need to get an expensive regulator. Probably upwards of $750 depending on your power requirements.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2017 18:08:21 GMT -6
Others should chime in on this, but I've been using several large APC battery backups for all of my computers, interfaces and NAS devices. The surge protection is good and they provide the additional benefit of switching over to battery in low-voltage (brownout) situations. We learned our lesson here a few years back when a bolt of lightning blew a tree right out of the ground about a hundred meters from the house. Even with generic $50 surge-protectors, everybody in the neighborhood got new TVs shortly after.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 22, 2017 22:36:12 GMT -6
Most Surge protection is one and done and won't let you know it's already done it's job so now your screwed! Firman says they have solved this problem but I have seen no real world proof either way!
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Post by mulmany on Dec 22, 2017 22:45:55 GMT -6
I put all my computer stuff and interface on a battery backup.
I have seen the panamax max 2 burn them selves up before letting damage be done to the equipment plugged into them. These were over voltage situations though.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2017 23:10:49 GMT -6
Most Surge protection is one and done and won't let you know it's already done it's job so now your screwed! Firman says they have solved this problem but I have seen no real world proof either way! That's a very important point. The surge protection is sacrificial.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 22, 2017 23:19:57 GMT -6
Most Surge protection is one and done and won't let you know it's already done it's job so now your screwed! Firman says they have solved this problem but I have seen no real world proof either way! That's a very important point. The surge protection is sacrificial. Here's an Idea for your next product a surge protector with a Modular MOV board that you can replace and let's you know it's time to replace the MOV board, ship it with a couple of Modules! I have been saying this would be great in so many aplications!
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Dec 23, 2017 1:54:57 GMT -6
Others should chime in on this, but I've been using several large APC battery backups for all of my computers, interfaces and NAS devices. The surge protection is good and they provide the additional benefit of switching over to battery in low-voltage (brownout) situations. We learned our lesson here a few years back when a bolt of lightning blew a tree right out of the ground about a hundred meters from the house. Even with generic $50 surge-protectors, everybody in the neighborhood got new TVs shortly after. I used to use one of those UPS backups, but it had a buzz and I couldn't have it in the same room as my studio. Do they have new silent ones now?
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Post by stormymondays on Dec 23, 2017 6:51:59 GMT -6
Thanks everyone! I need to decide if I can get a way with a good power regulator (estabilizer), or if I need to get an on-line SAI that will completely regenerate the sinusoidal wave of the electrical power. The SAI guarantees no line noise but it's oh-so-expensive!
I'm now worried about the surge protectors and whether they've gone off or not. I thought they had some kind of pilot light that alerted of a failure. Edit: I just reviewed the surge protectors and yes, once they trip they should cut current and light a warning light.
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Post by svart on Dec 23, 2017 9:36:02 GMT -6
Well, I've got good news and I've got bad news..
The bad news is that nothing really "protects" against surges and lightning, even though they say they do. The problem is that the standards that these protection devices are tested to, are nothing more than.. standards. Mother nature and the chaotic nature of surges don't play by the rules.
The way "surge protectors" are supposed to work is two-fold. First line of defense is the MOV or Metal Oxide Varistor.. Which is sort of like a backwards fuse in that it remains open during normal voltage ranges. It shorts when over-voltaged and then is supposed to return to open once the surge has passed.
HOWEVER.. MOVs have a primary weakness, and that is multiple strikes in a row. When they first start to conduct, all that surge current is being shorted, and turned into heat. Subsequent fast strikes overheat the part and it burns/explodes and otherwise becomes damaged and unable to work properly after that. It may/may not show external signs of being dead.
Once the MOV starts to short, it's supposed to draw excessive current across the breaker and the breaker should pop.
This leads us to the secondary weakness.. Time. MOVs have a relatively slow reaction time, when compared to fast strikes like lightning and ESD. MOVs are assumed to be used for very slow voltage surges, which I've found to be more rare than anything. Most surges come quickly and multiple strikes happen in a row, even though we only see one flicker in the lights.
Matching transformers can blunt the surge transient to a degree so that MOVs and TVS devices can react, but if the surge is sustained or the strikes come faster than the reaction time of the devices, then they'll still overheat and die a quick death..
UPS and "power cleaners" still have to have protection on their AC inputs.. And can you guess what those protection devices might be?
Anyway, I said I have good news..
The good news is that these things happen relatively rarely unless you live in lightning prone areas like Florida.
I'd replace the surge protector with something a little higher quality, but I've seen too many power cleaners and UPS devices die similar deaths under surges, while causing more noise issues than anything else.
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Post by joseph on Dec 23, 2017 12:39:13 GMT -6
Yep, I researched the issue years ago and came to same conclusion as Svart, albeit without his usual erudite explanation. Basically unplug everything in an electrical storm and hope for the best. or do this "Lightning protection at the Space Shuttle launch pads is provided primarily by a 70-foot insulating fiberglass mast 5 feet in diameter located on the Fixed Service Structure with a lightning rod at the top of the mast, as shown in Figure 1. A catenary wire running from the top of the mast to grounding points 1000 feet to the north and south of the tower is used to direct the current away from the pad structure. The lightning protection mast is struck an average of three times per year." ams.confex.com/ams/pdfpapers/38831.pdf
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2017 13:05:29 GMT -6
I used to use one of those UPS backups, but it had a buzz and I couldn't have it in the same room as my studio. Do they have new silent ones now? No, afraid not. The smaller UPS that I use for computer monitors is quiet, but the larger ones go in the machine room.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2017 13:07:10 GMT -6
Here's an Idea for your next product a surge protector with a Modular MOV board that you can replace and let's you know it's time to replace the MOV board, ship it with a couple of Modules! I have been saying this would be great in so many aplications! Not real sure that people would want it as a plugin. They'd always complain that the hardware was better
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Post by formatcyes on Dec 23, 2017 15:18:20 GMT -6
surge protection just shows you where it went. I have worked with super expensive surge protection and nothing really works I have picked up camera control modules from across a room after it blew of the wall behind surge protection. The only way to really protect is to unplug from the power point when not using and don't use your gear during thunder storms.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 23, 2017 15:26:07 GMT -6
Here's an Idea for your next product a surge protector with a Modular MOV board that you can replace and let's you know it's time to replace the MOV board, ship it with a couple of Modules! I have been saying this would be great in so many aplications! Not real sure that people would want it as a plugin. They'd always complain that the hardware was better Yeah forgot your just plugins time to enter the hardware market!
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Post by stormymondays on Dec 23, 2017 15:29:29 GMT -6
Thanks everyone for the useful responses. I'm still a bit puzzled as to why nothing tripped, and nothing but the RME got damaged. I had a lot of equipment plugged in: preamps, outboard (tube and solid state), monitors, computer, USB hub with harddrives, control surface, etc.
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Post by Quint on Dec 23, 2017 18:40:53 GMT -6
Speaking of unplugging everything when not in use or during a lightning storm, I'm guessing that simply flipping the breaker(s) off, that supplies everything, won't work as an alternative to unplugging everything, as it could still arc over inside a deactivated breaker(s)?
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Post by svart on Dec 24, 2017 8:30:34 GMT -6
Speaking of unplugging everything when not in use or during a lightning storm, I'm guessing that simply flipping the breaker(s) off, that supplies everything, won't work as an alternative to unplugging everything, as it could still arc over inside a deactivated breaker(s)? That's exactly what I do. I've had multiple lightning strikes damage stuff over the years, but after the breaker flip, nothing has been damaged.
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Post by stormymondays on Dec 24, 2017 9:03:55 GMT -6
I also flip the breakers. My electrician confirmed it was safe and a good idea.
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Post by formatcyes on Dec 24, 2017 14:12:57 GMT -6
Flipping the breakers will reduce your risk but it depends how close the strike is. The lightning has just traveled up to a mile thru the air the last inch thru a breaker is not going to make much difference. I have replaced toasted switch boards it just depends how close the lightening strike was. The breakers only switch the active in a close strike the earth voltage jumps. This is why you can get zapped using a landline phone, cabled internet etc.
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 24, 2017 21:22:33 GMT -6
Others should chime in on this, but I've been using several large APC battery backups for all of my computers, interfaces and NAS devices. The surge protection is good and they provide the additional benefit of switching over to battery in low-voltage (brownout) situations. We learned our lesson here a few years back when a bolt of lightning blew a tree right out of the ground about a hundred meters from the house. Even with generic $50 surge-protectors, everybody in the neighborhood got new TVs shortly after. I used to use one of those UPS backups, but it had a buzz and I couldn't have it in the same room as my studio. Do they have new silent ones now? There are several different classes of UPS. Many have either square wave output or "quasi-sine or "preudo-sine" output, which is a stepped waveform. Neither is really adequate for audio. What you need is true sinewave output that always runs the load from the battery conversion, as many run off the line until there's a fault and then switches over. Of course they're the most expensive type. Check out what APC has to offer.
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Post by maq3396 on Dec 25, 2017 10:15:40 GMT -6
Sorry this hear about your loss.
APC does have an equipment replacement warranty that you may wish to explore.
Take it easy!
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Post by iamasound on Dec 27, 2017 4:17:21 GMT -6
Thanks everyone for the useful responses. I'm still a bit puzzled as to why nothing tripped, and nothing but the RME got damaged. I had a lot of equipment plugged in: preamps, outboard (tube and solid state), monitors, computer, USB hub with harddrives, control surface, etc. I had a Babyface for a quick idea plugged in the other day and static electricity from my finger arced to an unused USB cable plugged into the computer. The sound coming from the Babyface was a horrible screaming sound that no amount of unplugging, restarting, reinstalling of drivers would calm it down. Finally for no logical reason to me it began to work again. This just from static electricity. Maybe RME is overly sensitive to electicity. Anybody have am explaination for the static thing?
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