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Post by nick8801 on Dec 5, 2017 8:12:01 GMT -6
So we always hear how the loudness wars are over blah blah blah, but I've noticed several newer albums that I've been listening to just sit in the red basically the whole time. The one that really got to me is the new War On Drugs record. I thought their first record was fantastic. Punchy, rocking, great tunes. If anyone here has any online streaming services or owns those records, play the first record then switch to the new one. It's insane. Make sure you do it in a good listening environment. I was also giving the new Noel Gallager record a listen the other day and same thing. It just sits in the red. Whats crazy to me is that in non critical listening environments, for example my car, those records are louder and stand out above other things I have in playlists. Why are mastering engineers doing this? Both records were mastered by guys I really respect, but I don't get all this audio integrity, when you're pushing stuff into distortion. Should I be going for that with my masters to compete? The last thing I want is for my music to come on in a playlist after these records. I dunno, I'm just kind of ranting about this, but it does bother me. What's the point here? I was able to get one of my older tunes to that level by using not one but two limiters on the master buss and then pushing the fader past zero. I'm not talking about proper eq'ing to get a master to pop. This is just raising the volume to the level of those annoying commercials that come on TV when you're least expecting it. I'd love to hear some thoughts on this subject, as obviously the loudness wars will never end.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 5, 2017 8:36:00 GMT -6
So we always hear how the loudness wars are over blah blah blah, but I've noticed several newer albums that I've been listening to just sit in the red basically the whole time. The one that really got to me is the new War On Drugs record. I thought their first record was fantastic. Punchy, rocking, great tunes. If anyone here has any online streaming services or owns those records, play the first record then switch to the new one. It's insane. Make sure you do it in a good listening environment. I was also giving the new Noel Gallager record a listen the other day and same thing. It just sits in the red. Whats crazy to me is that in non critical listening environments, for example my car, those records are louder and stand out above other things I have in playlists. Why are mastering engineers doing this? Both records were mastered by guys I really respect, but I don't get all this audio integrity, when you're pushing stuff into distortion. Should I be going for that with my masters to compete? The last thing I want is for my music to come on in a playlist after these records. I dunno, I'm just kind of ranting about this, but it does bother me. What's the point here? I was able to get one of my older tunes to that level by using not one but two limiters on the master buss and then pushing the fader past zero. I'm not talking about proper eq'ing to get a master to pop. This is just raising the volume to the level of those annoying commercials that come on TV when you're least expecting it. I'd love to hear some thoughts on this subject, as obviously the loudness wars will never end. Simplest answer in the world Nick Are your clients happy? That's all that matters, if you have clients who want the sound of you following the sheep, then you have a decision to make. I know some very good but not well known guys who love the loudness wars because people who hate the trend are specifically seeking them out because they know these guys won't go there! I know guys who's entire Buisness model is squish the life out of it, and I know guys who simply do what it takes to make the client happy. Are any of these guys wrong ? No because they are all paying their bills ! As much as some may put art above all you have to remember this is a Buisness capital Bfor emphasis and most of us at the end of the day will do what we have to do we can eat! |
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Post by adamjbrass on Dec 5, 2017 8:43:54 GMT -6
The louder mastering and painful choice of "Hacking" a song by making it sit ontop of "Lucifer's Roof", appears to be directly correlated to how lazy the consumer is with their playback level choices. Mastering is now an attempt at Guessing how loud the listener should have the material before accessing their volume knob. Have you noticed a shortage of knobs lately?
You should completely Forget about "sticking out" or comparing, in level to other material, when you are in a ocean of sound. You SHOULD pay attention to how your material plays back on different reproduction formats, and ask yourself who is enjoying this material and HOW will they enjoy it.
Since each song has its own rules about where the "loudness" should be, as a storage format -- this sales point is rendered completely null and void. So, in other words; Stop making albums for Itunes format (shuffled mode) and start making art as you intened it to live for the remainder.
Your fans will find the volume knob if they care about your music.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 5, 2017 9:06:51 GMT -6
The louder mastering and painful choice of "Hacking" a song by making it sit ontop of "Lucifer's Roof", appears to be directly correlated to how lazy the consumer is with their playback level choices. Mastering is now an attempt at Guessing how loud the listener should have the material before accessing their volume knob. Have you noticed a shortage of knobs lately? You should completely Forget about "sticking out" or comparing, in level to other material, when you are in a ocean of sound. You SHOULD pay attention to how your material plays back on different reproduction formats, and ask yourself who is enjoying this material and HOW will they enjoy it. Since each song has its own rules about where the "loudness" should be, as a storage format -- this sales point is rendered completely null and void. So, in other words; Stop making albums for Itunes format (shuffled mode) and start making art as you intened it to live for the remainder. Your fans will find the volume knob if they care about your music. Hey Adam Wouldn't life be simpler if Apple would put a simple compressor option In the IPod software? Those who want squish could squash the life out of everything and the rest of could enjoy how music actually exists! I will admit I wouldn't mind a bit of compression in the car, just cause riding the volume in traffic is a bitch! |
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Post by adamjbrass on Dec 5, 2017 9:34:58 GMT -6
sounds like you need a quieter interior and a CD
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Post by EmRR on Dec 5, 2017 9:49:54 GMT -6
Soundcheck on the ipod already does it's thing if you turn it on.
All the smashed stuff sure is hard to listen to on a good system. Some of it totally unlistenable, though it may sound ok on a crap system. Interesting to note the AES recommended minimum LUFS Level of -20 for streaming, which acknowledges most consumer systems don't have the gain to push lower signal levels adequately. In other words, most new consumer systems suck compared to days of old, even though watts/$ is cheaper than ever!
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Post by nick8801 on Dec 5, 2017 9:52:23 GMT -6
Love the Lucifer's Roof analogy lol....Yeah I mean, you do have to kind of make sure that the music is going to sound good through multiple playback systems (across multiple years). And if you assume that most people will be listening in their car of with modern bass heavy phones, then I guess pushing it into the red makes some kind of sense. But I mean, I get through about 5 minutes of music like that, and I have to stop cause my ears start bleeding. I also like the idea that if people like your music they will reach for the volume knob. Case in point is the last Jayhawks record. It falls into the softer camp, but I love it so much I just turn it up and it has so much dynamics and feeling. The make the client happy thing is also important to remember. I've had ME's tell me that they won't make music that loud, or others who pride themselves on being able to get louder than everyone else. In the end it doesn't change the song, but it is such a slippery slope when making the final steps in producing something artistic. Thanks for listening to me vent... I would love to hear more people's thoughts on this subject. I do find it to be the trickiest part of the process to get right these days. Especially in such a saturated(no pun intended) climate of music available to the listener.
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Post by nick8801 on Dec 5, 2017 9:56:20 GMT -6
Soundcheck on the ipod already does it's thing if you turn it on. All the smashed stuff sure is hard to listen to on a good system. Some of it totally unlistenable, though it may sound ok on a crap system. Interesting to note the AES recommended minimum LUFS Level of -20 for streaming, which acknowledges most consumer systems don't have the gain to push lower signal levels adequately. In other words, most new consumer systems suck compared to days of old, even though watts/$ is cheaper than ever! That's the thing. It may be hard to listen to on critical monitors with crystal clear conversion, but popping out of an iphone, through a shredded up cable into some prosumer car stereo it works. Gross. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2017 10:33:29 GMT -6
I hate it personally, I can't stand to listen to music that has been that smashed, on my ATCs, or on my Etymotics while out and about, BUT I will do it for clients IF THEY ASK ME TO. Yes, there's an art to getting it as loud as possible while still retaining some semblance of musicality, but a lot of the "Big Guys" are pushing stuff way past that now, IMHO. I've somewhat built a rep for not liking that stuff, and not wanting to do it, but as I said, I'll do what makes the client happy and it's sometimes fun to see how far I can push things before collapse. But even then, I'm usually not getting things up to that new Noel Gallagher record, for example, which I have to say sounds just horrible, again, IMHO.  |
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Post by svart on Dec 5, 2017 10:59:19 GMT -6
Soundcheck on the ipod already does it's thing if you turn it on. All the smashed stuff sure is hard to listen to on a good system. Some of it totally unlistenable, though it may sound ok on a crap system. Interesting to note the AES recommended minimum LUFS Level of -20 for streaming, which acknowledges most consumer systems don't have the gain to push lower signal levels adequately. In other words, most new consumer systems suck compared to days of old, even though watts/$ is cheaper than ever! That's the thing. It may be hard to listen to on critical monitors with crystal clear conversion, but popping out of an iphone, through a shredded up cable into some prosumer car stereo it works. Gross. That's the majority of listeners now. They're just following the market. Critical listeners are something of a fringe group now. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 5, 2017 11:22:21 GMT -6
sounds like you need a quieter interior and a CD No if you have ever driven for 4 hours with the IPhone on shuffle or a diverse playlist even with soundcheck on levels and dynamics all over the place it can get annoying! Even when I had the AMG or a new over insulated S series if you have a wide range of music you find yourself riding the volume it could be avoided with a simple DSP comp with a GUI like an old DBX 163! In fact I had a car installer who's secret sauce was the 163, he would buy them in bulk and after DBX discontinued it would scrounge for them ! |
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Post by adamjbrass on Dec 5, 2017 11:45:38 GMT -6
riding the volume during a road trip is no good reason to compress everything. At least in my world.
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Post by joseph on Dec 5, 2017 11:47:06 GMT -6
That's the thing. It may be hard to listen to on critical monitors with crystal clear conversion, but popping out of an iphone, through a shredded up cable into some prosumer car stereo it works. Gross. That's the majority of listeners now. They're just following the market. Critical listeners are something of a fringe group now. Yes, but as Bob likes to say (paraphrasing) the target for records is critical listeners, aka reviewers. I find that indie reviewers and bloggers take sound pretty seriously and at least have a decent pair of headphones, if not a vinyl set up. |
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Post by EmRR on Dec 5, 2017 11:48:15 GMT -6
AGC...easy enough to implement.
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Post by svart on Dec 5, 2017 11:59:15 GMT -6
That's the majority of listeners now. They're just following the market. Critical listeners are something of a fringe group now. Yes, but as Bob likes to say (paraphrasing) the target for records is critical listeners, aka reviewers. I find that indie reviewers and bloggers take sound pretty seriously and at least have a decent pair of headphones, if not a vinyl set up. Interesting. I would have thought the opposite. I deal with a lot of indie bands and one of their least concerns is audio quality. They all seem to supply very mid-range centric recordings with very little dynamics as their samples for mixing. They don't like hifi/radio type mixes these days. |
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Post by svart on Dec 5, 2017 12:08:28 GMT -6
So personally I don't care if something is crushed or not. I care if it sounds good or not. Some things that are crushed and in the red still sound great. Other things that aren't crushed and riding the red sound bad. Sometimes something sounds bad because it's crushed and in the red. Sometimes it's crushed in the red and sounds bad because the mix was bad to begin with.
What I tend to find is that something that was mixed *to be* crushed and hot will sound fine. I find that something that *was not* mixed to be crushed in the red will sound bad when crushed.
Mastering shouldn't be seen as some magical operation that happens outside of normal reality. You have to mix for it to be mastered, or not.
Personally I don't mix for things to be mastered. I mix them how I want them to sound.
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Post by joseph on Dec 5, 2017 12:18:04 GMT -6
Yes, but as Bob likes to say (paraphrasing) the target for records is critical listeners, aka reviewers. I find that indie reviewers and bloggers take sound pretty seriously and at least have a decent pair of headphones, if not a vinyl set up. Interesting. I would have thought the opposite. I deal with a lot of indie bands and one of their least concerns is audio quality. They all seem to supply very mid-range centric recordings with very little dynamics as their samples for mixing. They don't like hifi/radio type mixes these days. I guess it depends on how you define indie. I would consider The National pretty hifi, especially in the low end. |
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Post by toader on Dec 21, 2017 16:37:10 GMT -6
So personally I don't care if something is crushed or not. I care if it sounds good or not. Some things that are crushed and in the red still sound great. Other things that aren't crushed and riding the red sound bad. Sometimes something sounds bad because it's crushed and in the red. Sometimes it's crushed in the red and sounds bad because the mix was bad to begin with. What I tend to find is that something that was mixed *to be* crushed and hot will sound fine. I find that something that *was not* mixed to be crushed in the red will sound bad when crushed. This. |
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