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Post by popmann on Nov 16, 2017 11:44:29 GMT -6
I thought I'd pass this little bit of utter stupidity along.
LogicX compensates for latency of plugs ins on busses (whether subs or master) ALL THE TIME. Even when the plug in is disengaged (turned off, grayed out).
This results, IME, in recorded audio being time stamped and played back in correctly. Therefore, the only viable solution is to not insert any latent plug in on a buss until you're done recording. Hovering the plug in, Logic will pop up the latency if applicable.
I had wondered how you could enable and disable them without audio glitches like Cubase. That's how--they're not recalculating it because they've already bumped the mixer in time for the inserted buy disabled plug ins.
I can't imagine what kind of latent hell Logic must be in combo with UAD plug ins.
I just figured the manual compensation offer last night....after a reboot this morning, that value has to change. So, I'm thinking of moving this EP production back into the old PC.
Side note, this is why you can turn off Bus compensation in the preferences--but then....you know....I'm....it's ALSO not in time--just just have less latency in what you hear on your software input.
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 16, 2017 13:11:27 GMT -6
I thought I'd pass this little bit of utter stupidity along. LogicX compensates for latency of plugs ins on busses (whether subs or master) ALL THE TIME. Even when the plug in is disengaged (turned off, grayed out). This results, IME, in recorded audio being time stamped and played back in correctly. Therefore, the only viable solution is to not insert any latent plug in on a buss until you're done recording. Hovering the plug in, Logic will pop up the latency if applicable. I had wondered how you could enable and disable them without audio glitches like Cubase. That's how--they're not recalculating it because they've already bumped the mixer in time for the inserted buy disabled plug ins. I can't imagine what kind of latent hell Logic must be in combo with UAD plug ins. I just figured the manual compensation offer last night....after a reboot this morning, that value has to change. So, I'm thinking of moving this EP production back into the old PC. Side note, this is why you can turn off Bus compensation in the preferences--but then....you know....I'm....it's ALSO not in time--just just have less latency in what you hear on your software input. You can set the recording delay in the preferences.  |
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 16, 2017 13:11:49 GMT -6
double
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Post by ericbradley on Nov 16, 2017 13:11:52 GMT -6
Like you stated; plug-ins in off mode will report their latency value to the auto-compensation engine. But this is only true when Plug-in Latency Compensation is set to All.
One option is to set PLC to Instruments and Audio tracks instead and then turn off all the latent plug-ins on aux and outputs.
But as you can imagine this can get pretty tiresome and almost unbearable on a larger project.
This is why we have Low Latency Mode.
LLM will help you get rid of latency on the recording path even when you have latency plug-ins on aux and outputs.
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Post by ericbradley on Nov 16, 2017 13:16:45 GMT -6
The recording delay is a parameter to compensate for errors in the reported roundtrip latency of your monitoring chain.
The best use for it is to first measure if your interface is reporting the correct roundtrip value, and to then compensate so that it is sample accurate. This should be done without any plug-ins as a base value.
It is also good to know that this value will probably change depending on the sample rate of the project — unless your interface is reporting everything correctly.
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Post by popmann on Nov 16, 2017 13:46:01 GMT -6
I have ACTUAL zero latency on my cue. Analog.
This is a straight up compensation issue. It's not horrible with everything off the busses--I prpbabaly wouldn't have noted that.
Turning off bus compensation is simply choosing to have the playback in the wrong place while you play to it in purpose. No--you need to remove any inserts from busses.
I tested the loop this morning after a reboot and got different error amounts than last night in the same project/session.
I am spending today transferring work to an old Cubase machine that is rock solid with multiple compensated inserts and aux busses. I am posting this as an FYI. You need to loop check this every session and at the very least check and make sure nothing is latent on your busses until mixdown. And I mean inserted at all. Good news is that Gain to sub for the lack of a mono switch and Waves API 2500 (the only compressor I ever put on the master buss) don't induce latency the buffer. If you turn off any up sampling the channel EQ is also latency free.
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Post by ericbradley on Nov 16, 2017 13:54:22 GMT -6
Turning off bus compensation is simply choosing to have the playback in the wrong place while you play to it in purpose. No--you need to remove any inserts from busses. If you set PLC to Instruments and Audio Tracks and then turn off the latent plug-ins on aux and output everything should line up perfectly since the compensation engine is not inducing any latency and the latent processing is bypassed. But I really prefer LLM and PLC set to All.
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Post by stormymondays on Nov 16, 2017 14:07:11 GMT -6
In my experience, bypassing any latency inducing plugin on tracks does result in a click and glitch. Although maybe what you are explaining only happens on buses? I will then have to check for bypassed plugins on summing stacks, which are essentially busses.
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Post by ericbradley on Nov 16, 2017 14:27:56 GMT -6
Here's a small graphical example. - I have recored a click sound played by a track in Logic Pro X.
- The tempo is set to 120 BPM and the click is playing every quarter note. A quarter note is exactly 0.5s.
- The first recorded track is playing through a latent signal path of 0.25s. You can see that the recording is an eight note too late.
- The second recorded track is recorded with the same plug-ins as the first example but now i have enabled LLM. You can see that this is spot on.
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Post by ericbradley on Nov 16, 2017 14:43:11 GMT -6
In my experience, bypassing any latency inducing plugin on tracks does result in a click and glitch. Although maybe what you are explaining only happens on buses? I will then have to check for bypassed plugins on summing stacks, which are essentially busses. Yes. Bypassed plug-ins on the source track itself (audio/software instrument) will stop reporting the latency to the engine and will cause a glitch due to the timing shift. Popmann is talking about plug-ins on aux channels. |
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Post by popmann on Nov 16, 2017 15:17:29 GMT -6
You need all compensation on in any software mixer. We agree on that. If I had a recommendation, it would be to simply never put latent plug ins on busses until mix down--even in deactivated mode. Never disable compensation--you'd be making the root of my discontent worse--it needs to ALWAYS play back what's present at analog in and output while recording. Temporarily NOT compensating is just a different way to ensure the audio is placed wrong.
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Post by stormymondays on Nov 16, 2017 15:47:16 GMT -6
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Post by ericbradley on Nov 16, 2017 16:14:42 GMT -6
You need all compensation on in any software mixer. We agree on that. Yes. It sure as hell makes our world much easier instead of compensating manually. That's a perfectly valid solution. And as you point out it is pretty useless to disable plug-ins on aux/output when PLC is set to all, unless you want to bypass their processing for some reason. The latency compensation itself will still cause your monitoring to be latent. What I'm saying is that you can kind of –have your cake and eat it too– if you use LLM. I'm saying "kind of" because you will most certainly lose your sends (you can circumvent this behavior by setting the send/-s to Low Latency safe which can be valuable when using the send as a monitor mix), and any other processing that is latent until the signal reaches the output stage. The good thing is that this will only happen on the track you are actively recording on If you set PLC to audio and software instruments and disable the latent plug-ins on aux/output you will still have the same alignment in timing between the tracks. I find this method pretty cumbersome but it is still a good tool to have at your disposal if needed. Another method that I use pretty extensively when tracking vocals is to record with direct monitoring instead. Turning off Software monitoring in Logic Pro X will make sure that the recording track is in synchronization with the rest of your arrangement. |
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Post by popmann on Nov 16, 2017 16:57:45 GMT -6
So, now you have me curious....why does having software monitoring ON (or off)....but not listening to the input via computer change compensation? Because I can turn that off tonight....it's only on for the occasional prefader reverb send. Again--in Cubase this makes no difference to the compensation.
Maybe you could put the bug in Apple's ear to enable an equivalent to ASIO DM in Logic. I had no idea it wasn't there, since I have used an analog mixer so long....until three things happened in one day--1) I had a session one night that I needed it for an external sampler being played in real time via digital connection (thus my analog mixer did no good)....and then 2) the next morning someone asked here about why Cubase on OSX was so latent compared to Logic's DM (which no longer exists)....AND 3) Apogee sent me a marketing email about how users of the new Symphony Mk2 could monitor with "no latency" in Logic by Logic automatically switching on their hardware cue mixer....which I thought "well, that's just direct monitoring....why are they selling that as new?" Because apparently, at some point Apple removed it from Core Audio according to RME engineers. That's scary bad news. Every interface has a hardware cue mixer--why on earth would they intentionally disable DAW's ability to utilize it?
I switched on LLM for the sampler session....but, LLM should only affect the input monitored channel I'm not (typically) listening to shouldn't it?
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