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Post by dror520 on Nov 7, 2017 17:18:44 GMT -6
Hi there, This is the first time I used a Mastering Engineer on my mix. My mix was at -6dB peaks and between -20 and -27dB RMS. I received the mastered track where most of the track reaches a peak of -0.2 to 0.0 and the waveform is squared off: drive.google.com/file/d/18ELNgW2WSy-gHYTBQnDF5MbW_10xG0BVI checked the levels at the lowest section of my original mix which peaked at -11dB. On the mastered track the same section peaked at -0.1. As I said above, this is my first time using a mastering engineer, so maybe this is how it's should be, but to me the mastered track sound kinda crushed with less dynamics. Could it be that the master engineer used too much gain to make the lowest section peak at -0.1 and therefore the limiter crushed the rest of the mix? Thanks for your help!
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Post by notneeson on Nov 7, 2017 18:07:05 GMT -6
It does not look unusual for a modern day master. How does it sound? Did you hire someone with a proven track record?
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Post by jeremygillespie on Nov 7, 2017 19:02:46 GMT -6
I personally don’t let that happen on anything I get mastered, but I try to develop an understanding with who I use.
Why did you choose who you went to? Reputation, price?
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Post by Guitar on Nov 7, 2017 19:06:09 GMT -6
Yeah if you zoom in it might not look so bad. How does it sound?
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,005
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Post by ericn on Nov 7, 2017 19:43:56 GMT -6
As others have pointed out who and how experienced they are is the important thing. We should put the same effort & time in to choseing a mastering engineer as we want our clients to put in. Listening to ones work & talking and understanding each other's approach is important. Just because somebody says they are a mastering engineer and puts up credits and samples dose not make them a mastering engineer or the right mastering engineer for you. Of the 3 guys I use I have known one for 8 years and the other 2 for 30, because of these personal relationships I'll go to these guys as my first choice rather than the legends including our own illustrious beard of audio knowledge Sir Bob , who I hold the utmost respect for.
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Post by avgatzeblouz on Nov 7, 2017 20:10:52 GMT -6
This seems quite drastic, even by today's standards IMO. Can you post sound files ? mix and master ?
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Post by drbill on Nov 8, 2017 0:15:39 GMT -6
The screenshot means nothing The comparison to the upper track is meaningless as your upper track is significanty under -.1dBSFS. Zoom in to find out the real info if you want to know how chopped off it is. But bottom line, it's all how it sounds. I would expect most mastered mixes to sound "kinda crushed, with less dynamics" - unless you specifically asked for a finished master with lots of dynamic range and minimal limiting. Crushed with less dynamics is the defacto standard.
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Post by jeromemason on Nov 8, 2017 1:23:00 GMT -6
Clipping high dollar converters is one of many ways ME's get the level so high while maintaining the dynamic movement of mixes.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2017 5:59:48 GMT -6
Communication is at least 50% of a great mastering job, that both the ME and the client can be proud of. The first conversation I have with a new client or an old client with a new project, is what kind of approach they want me to take, or what they think they will be getting out of the mastering. This instantly lets me know how to start approaching the project, before we even begin. Some clients don't want me to change a thing, other clients want me to perform radical surgery. Some want zero limiting and max dynamic range, others want "competitive levels". And this should all be thrashed out before starting work, IMO. So I'll repeat it again: Communication is at least 50% of a great mastering job, that both the ME and the client can be proud of.
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Post by svart on Nov 8, 2017 7:01:21 GMT -6
I'm not a ME, and never really promoted myself as one, but I always seem to get folks asking if I can master things after I mix them, and sometimes I just get mastering jobs alone. Folks seem to just believe that there is some magic in mastering that isn't there in mixing.
It usually goes two ways:
The band is incredibly picky during mixing, stressing over small volume moves and inaudible EQ changes, etc. Then they ask for "mastering". I'll ask what they want from it, and they'll just be like "whatever mastering engineers do"...
Or
Band wants mastering, and I'll ask, "what do you want from the mastering process?" and they'll be like "Oh just make it loud"..
Or
Band wants mastering and supplies a ridiculously bad set of amateur mixes, and wants them to sound like a million bucks.
OR
Band wants mastering and supplies songs that sound like GreenDay and want "mastering" to help them sound more like Coldplay.. And yes, I've had folks ask for this..
From all this I've realized that the average musician loves to think they understand the mixing process, but rarely know anything about the mastering process.
So I'll ask..
What did you want from the mastering process?
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Post by adamjbrass on Nov 8, 2017 8:37:05 GMT -6
I always get on the phone with the ME and explain how loud I want something, and why. I am going to go ahead and guess you don't like your material this loud.
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Post by dror520 on Nov 8, 2017 8:54:33 GMT -6
Thank you all for your replies! I sent the mix to a professional and by your answers I can see that he didn't make a mistake, rather I made a mistake by not specifying what I'm looking for. Is it really the standard for a mastered track to be at 0.0 dB peak and -7dB RMS? The track is a pop/rock type song with all analog instruments, was kinda thinking of Dire Straits but more modern. In your opinion, if the aim of the track is also to be "competitive" and to be played on the radio, should I make a revision and make it less crushed and more dynamic, or should I leave it like this? Also, responding to svart's question: The main reason I sent the mix to a mastering engineer is to get an objective opinion of the mix in a really good room with great speakers. The second reason was to maybe make some small enhancements with some high-end gear to make the track more "finished" so that it could be on the radio. Thanks again for you help, Really appreciate it!
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Post by Ward on Nov 8, 2017 9:21:36 GMT -6
I've seen worse. Just looks like Brock wall limiting to me.
I work with a couple of GREAT ME.s who can make things loud enough to crumble cinder blocks but still have dynamics!
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 8, 2017 9:33:55 GMT -6
Is that pic zoomed in? Holy crap. I can get things to like -9 LUFS without the waveform looking anything like that.
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 8, 2017 9:34:52 GMT -6
If you double click the eyeglass icon, does It still look the same?
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Post by dror520 on Nov 8, 2017 9:45:43 GMT -6
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 8, 2017 10:24:34 GMT -6
That's a LOT more normal. I guess the question would be whether you like the way it sounds.
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Post by drbill on Nov 8, 2017 10:30:15 GMT -6
I agree. Looks pretty normal to me. I've seen mixes a LOT more crushed, but like John said - how does it sound. If you compare the original mix in the middle section, you'll see spikes at pretty regular intervals. I'm guessing snare? If you flatten those out and raise the level of your original file, it will look very similar to the mastered version....
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Post by joseph on Nov 8, 2017 11:23:24 GMT -6
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Post by jeromemason on Nov 8, 2017 12:26:57 GMT -6
I would suggest you try Aria and see how loud you want your mixes...... They have the option to choose from 4 different dynamic levels and yes, Colin uses extremely high dollar converters and analog gear over there. I use it for my mixes, when I'm done instead of me trying to create mastering ref's I just shoot all the songs over to them and let them give me back an extremely high quality ref file to go a long with the -6db peak to peak I give. I bill every client with that in there and they love it, some use the ref files for their projects, one on a label did this not long ago, I was totally surprised.
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 9, 2017 16:43:51 GMT -6
Hi there, This is the first time I used a Mastering Engineer on my mix. My mix was at -6dB peaks and between -20 and -27dB RMS. I received the mastered track where most of the track reaches a peak of -0.2 to 0.0 and the waveform is squared off: drive.google.com/file/d/18ELNgW2WSy-gHYTBQnDF5MbW_10xG0BVI checked the levels at the lowest section of my original mix which peaked at -11dB. On the mastered track the same section peaked at -0.1. As I said above, this is my first time using a mastering engineer, so maybe this is how it's should be, but to me the mastered track sound kinda crushed with less dynamics. Could it be that the master engineer used too much gain to make the lowest section peak at -0.1 and therefore the limiter crushed the rest of the mix? Thanks for your help! Does your ME give free revisions? I use Bob O. to master my stuff and he always asks if there's anything more that needs to be done. I think the fisrt time (when there some stuff screwed up with what we sent him that we actually knew about but just couldn't figure out) went maybe seven revisions. This new one went to 5 and really we could have stopped at 4 - that's the one we ended up using, but Bob had one more thing he wanted to try to see how we liked it. My stuff isn't the sort of stuff where really slamming it would be appropriate, but there some wide differences in volume between tracks and there was some detail stuff that needed attention - there was one song where there were some spot sibilance issues caused by a physical problem with my dentures that I can usually deal with by mic technique that we just couldn't get right on that one song, not by processing, not by retracking with my mic techniques that work fine on everything else, we just couldn't get right. Bob did a great job and wouldn't quit until it was done. But anyway a conscientious ME should give you free revisions and see to it that you're happy.
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Post by dror520 on Nov 9, 2017 17:35:46 GMT -6
Yea, he offers free revisions. I explained what I'm looking for and hopefully it will be right after the first revision.
Thanks
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Post by jazznoise on Nov 12, 2017 4:38:20 GMT -6
Yeah I'd just ask for a revision. For our album I ended up sending it back twice to get the dynamic range right, I don't think that's particularly unfair. It's worse to be flippant on then- a band I did work for just accepted the masters and only after it was released did I hear it. Noticeable clipping in the middle of one of the songs!! Quite a highly regarded ME too, I was shocked
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Post by M57 on Nov 12, 2017 8:17:33 GMT -6
I would suggest you try Aria and see how loud you want your mixes...... They have the option to choose from 4 different dynamic levels and yes, Colin uses extremely high dollar converters and analog gear over there. I use it for my mixes, when I'm done instead of me trying to create mastering ref's I just shoot all the songs over to them and let them give me back an extremely high quality ref file to go a long with the -6db peak to peak I give. I bill every client with that in there and they love it, some use the ref files for their projects, one on a label did this not long ago, I was totally surprised. I considered doing something similar with Aria.. Surprisingly, I ended up preferring my own mastering over Aria's, in part because I couldn't get Aria's Dynamic range in my sweet spot (four mix types just isn't enough) - but there were other reasons like EQ and the makeup of the compression/limiting cocktail. But if you're going to hire someone and you need to communicate how loud you want them to master your material, save some money and just throw a down and dirty limiter on the 2 and cook up a couple of mixes. Use a meter to see how things fall - I throw one on the 2 while bouncing plus I analyze the file off-line with a TT DR meter). Pick one and forward the info to your ME.
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Post by jeromemason on Nov 12, 2017 11:01:27 GMT -6
I would suggest you try Aria and see how loud you want your mixes...... They have the option to choose from 4 different dynamic levels and yes, Colin uses extremely high dollar converters and analog gear over there. I use it for my mixes, when I'm done instead of me trying to create mastering ref's I just shoot all the songs over to them and let them give me back an extremely high quality ref file to go a long with the -6db peak to peak I give. I bill every client with that in there and they love it, some use the ref files for their projects, one on a label did this not long ago, I was totally surprised. I considered doing something similar with Aria.. Surprisingly, I ended up preferring my own mastering over Aria's, in part because I couldn't get Aria's Dynamic range in my sweet spot (four mix types just isn't enough) - but there were other reasons like EQ and the makeup of the compression/limiting cocktail. But if you're going to hire someone and you need to communicate how loud you want them to master your material, save some money and just throw a down and dirty limiter on the 2 and cook up a couple of mixes. Use a meter to see how things fall - I throw one on the 2 while bouncing plus I analyze the file off-line with a TT DR meter). Pick one and forward the info to your ME. Did you do any adjustments of the level of the actual file in trying to get the dynamics right? I think Aria will read the RMS of a track and then that is what will raise the RMS to a certain point. I asked Colin if it set the track to a certain RMS level per setting and he'd told me it depended on the RMS level of the track when it came in. I know there has been times when I just paid the $50 for the 10 song deal and me only doing an EP so I'd have a couple of extra passes, I remember I did that once, changed the overall level of the track by using just the little gain slider in PT. It was different, I can't say it was massive but it was a little different. Now they have the ability to add top and bottom too, pretty neat while staying analog. It's been a long time since I talked to Colin about that, I do believe thats what he said though, something to keep in mind next time.
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