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Post by swurveman on Oct 8, 2017 17:17:20 GMT -6
I am going to give a concerted effort to do a lot more automating vocals and other instruments using a fader. So, for you guys riding vocals with a fader, I have a few questions: Are you looking at the waveform simulataneously? Or, do you listen to the vocal enough to know it inside and out and anticipate when and how much you're going to cut or boost? Secondly, do you ride the fader while playing the vocal with the mix, or do you start with the vocal? How long did it take you to get a feel for your fader so that you're not overriding it? And, if you have any tips on how to use a fader to get the maximum out of automating, I'm all ears.
Thanks to anybody with advice?
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Post by spindrift on Oct 8, 2017 17:44:12 GMT -6
Forgive me for piggy-backing.....but WHAT TOOL are you using (besides a mouse and the ProTools pencil) to automate those VOX? My PreSonus FaderPort used to work in PT 10 but with 12, it seems quite dodgy.
To the OP’s question, I use the upcoming waveform as a sort of warning that the vox may need some ducking. But mostly by ear in write mode. If I get it wrong on listen back, it’s easy to go back and touch the fader and get that phrase just right.
I’ve not yet dared to try to ride the fader (or compressor output knob) on vocal TRACKING.
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Post by wiz on Oct 8, 2017 17:45:50 GMT -6
I do fader rides section by section.
I loop say the verse, and then I ride until I get that section done, then I move on to the next one.
I use my iPad with logic to do this, if I screw up, I just stop playback and hit CTRL Z and then do it again, I will also go in and edit the automation... its really good way for me to work
cheers
Wiz
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Post by swurveman on Oct 8, 2017 18:06:31 GMT -6
I do fader rides section by section. I loop say the verse, and then I ride until I get that section done, then I move on to the next one. I use my iPad with logic to do this, if I screw up, I just stop playback and hit CTRL Z and then do it again, I will also go in and edit the automation... its really good way for me to work cheers Wiz Do you ride the fader up as the phrase runs out of steam at the end of phrase, or do you save rides for big dynamic changes?
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Post by wiz on Oct 8, 2017 18:17:16 GMT -6
I do fader rides section by section. I loop say the verse, and then I ride until I get that section done, then I move on to the next one. I use my iPad with logic to do this, if I screw up, I just stop playback and hit CTRL Z and then do it again, I will also go in and edit the automation... its really good way for me to work cheers Wiz Do you ride the fader up as the phrase runs out of steam at the end of phrase, or do you save rides for big dynamic changes? If it needs it, I do it... my objective is to make everything sound right in context of that part of the arrangement... things up, things down, I will automate a word if it needs it.. generally don't have to do that on my vocals though.... on others sure... cheers Wiz
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Post by drbill on Oct 8, 2017 18:51:18 GMT -6
Vocals come last for me, and yes, I ride every syllable or whatever it needs. It depends a lot on the compression, but I generally do not go heavy handed with a sta-level or smashed LA2a or something like that on the vocal to get it to sit. That's what automation is for. I automate with the vocal sitting WITHIN the mix. If I start with the vocal first, I'll be redoing it almost certainly. I might start with a vocal and get everything laid in around it, but when it comes to starting in with the fader moves, the instruments come first, vocals last. I make sure the track is solid, and the vocal is sitting where I want it. Then I start automating with a fader to dial it in. I'll use an Artist Mix to do that, or a Kensington (large ball) trackball. I am actually more accurate with the trackball. I'll look at waveforms, but by the time I get there, I am intimately familiar with the vocal, so I don't really need to watch waveforms. Plus, I mixed with consoles and tape machines for years, and there's nothing to see..... heh heh PS - compression gets used more for the sonics it imparts and for transient taming - ABSOLUTELY NOT for holding stuff in place so I don't need to automate things. After the compression flattens things out, almost everything gets automation moves. From subtle to massive. I puts life back into the music. If someone is using compression and mouse break points to automate and level out their mixes, the music tends to end up very static. Sometimes that's cool, but it's not the way live music sounds to me. I love compression, but I want life, movement and surprises in the music I mix. Even this simple Ac Gtrs, Bass, Piano piece has automation moves all over. For me, a mix is not done if I look at the volume moves display and see flat lines. You can obviously tell they are done by fader and not drawing lines. BTW, the mix sounded "good" with zero automation, but it was too flat and didn't achieve what I knew it could without the automation. hat. I rid
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Post by lcr on Oct 8, 2017 19:40:07 GMT -6
I use a trim plugin in the first and last plugin slot. The first trim is to get the level hitting the plugins at a decent level, often left at unity. The second is to build a static mix level. With faders at zero I start to automate. Sometimes I draw it in, lately using my eyes less and using a faderport.
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Post by rowmat on Oct 8, 2017 19:58:19 GMT -6
Recently got a Faderport and have been using it with Reaper.
The trick is definitely NOT to look at the screen when doing fader rides otherwise you end up just mimicking mouse moves which is exactly the thing you were trying to escape from in the first place!
Remember we're dealing with an audio medium here, not a visual medium, which is why I still find staring at DAW's a distraction when trying to make judgements about what I'm hearing.
A 'Lights Out" monitor function that could be enabled to automatically black out the monitor during playback is something I have thought about.
While the Faderport is much better than a mouse it still feels less connected than the analog console faders but I guess it's a case of getting use to it.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 8, 2017 20:39:23 GMT -6
I use Logic, and generally tweak small sections with automation, usually lowering a line and occasionally taming a few words that jump out. I do the same with bass and electric guitar but in small doses. I use Superior Drummer to set basic levels with their mixer, then go into the midi and adjust beat velocity for most everything, so it has a more natural dynamic.
I have Waves Vocal rider and Bass rider. I think there's a way to use them to write the automation, but I've never done it. They don't do a great job, but it helps. Basically I go into Logic's automation and adjust volume using my mouse, then I use things like the curve tool to smooth out changes.
Where I have the most trouble is with booming bass notes. Some basses sound fine, but one or two notes just bloom and sustain too loud and too long. I use compressors on the bass track, Waves bass rider, and Logic automation, but it's difficult to fix boomy bass notes that shouldn't be there in the first place.
I wish someone I knew had a few tricks I could borrow to fix that.
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Post by drbill on Oct 8, 2017 22:25:13 GMT -6
I wish someone I knew had a few tricks I could borrow to fix that. #1 thing - make sure it's not your room. Almost every room (untreated and/or smaller ones are worse) have a room node that will ring out with bass notes. Check in headphones to see if it's as bad there. If not, then it's most likely your room.
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Post by rowmat on Oct 8, 2017 23:23:02 GMT -6
I use Logic, and generally tweak small sections with automation, usually lowering a line and occasionally taming a few words that jump out. I do the same with bass and electric guitar but in small doses. I use Superior Drummer to set basic levels with their mixer, then go into the midi and adjust beat velocity for most everything, so it has a more natural dynamic. I have Waves Vocal rider and Bass rider. I think there's a way to use them to write the automation, but I've never done it. They don't do a great job, but it helps. Basically I go into Logic's automation and adjust volume using my mouse, then I use things like the curve tool to smooth out changes. Where I have the most trouble is with booming bass notes. Some basses sound fine, but one or two notes just bloom and sustain too loud and too long. I use compressors on the bass track, Waves bass rider, and Logic automation, but it's difficult to fix boomy bass notes that shouldn't be there in the first place. I wish someone I knew had a few tricks I could borrow to fix that. If the bass is DI'd only then it won't be affected by room modes during tracking but could be during playback. If the bass was amp'd and mic'd then it could be either room modes that got recorded during tracking and/or a combination of room modes during playback which are the most difficult to deal with because you now have multiple moving targets and need to determine whether the problem is in the recording or coloration occurring during playback. Notes that are heavily cancelled due to room modes during tracking can often be harder to fix than notes than boom. Solution? Bass trapping and finding the best position in the room(s) that give the most even response.
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Post by jeromemason on Oct 9, 2017 0:19:05 GMT -6
I wish someone I knew had a few tricks I could borrow to fix that. #1 thing - make sure it's not your room. Almost every room (untreated and/or smaller ones are worse) have a room node that will ring out with bass notes. Check in headphones to see if it's as bad there. If not, then it's most likely your room. +1 here. I used to focus way too much on individual notes or on notching the bass, but honestly if you know it's played with good bass like a P or Jazz bass, and the player didn't get all creative with the knobs, most likely the bass will be pretty flat and you'll find the biggest problem you have is getting a smooth sub freq and for me Maxxbass is really great at balancing the bass out. These days with male vocals they love the bucket in the lowend of the voice, so I really work hard to get the bass and the vocal working right. Used to be the kick and bass but now they love the damn kick drum as loud as you can get it so an ear balance does fine there. I ride the OH's more than anything else these days, by hand at least. Here and there spots on the vox I'll do by hand if it's a bridge in or out, maybe some kind of turn where things are really dynamically changing. Those spots, doing it by hand is the only way. All that though is how I work and my workflow, and is probably totally different than other pro's, but whatever works for you is the way to go.
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Post by viciousbliss on Oct 9, 2017 1:44:16 GMT -6
You guys on Pro Tools should give Quiet Arts Waverider a try. I'll add it to up to 32 tracks at once and set the threshold and output both to -30 and the 2 ratio sliders both to about 90% loose and I never feel like it's giving me worse results. Using HUI with Faderport 8 is impossible. Way too slow. Even if I could, I could see how it would be pretty tedious to think about what moves you want to make and then start and stop constantly to record them. I prefer just inputting parameters in Waverider and listening til I like the sound. Vedat might be porting it to non-AAX formats sometime.
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Post by M57 on Oct 9, 2017 3:51:53 GMT -6
Where I have the most trouble is with booming bass notes. Some basses sound fine, but one or two notes just bloom and sustain too loud and too long. I use compressors on the bass track, Waves bass rider, and Logic automation, but it's difficult to fix boomy bass notes that shouldn't be there in the first place. I wish someone I knew had a few tricks I could borrow to fix that. I have the same problem despite DI going in and mixing on headphones. I know it's not the room because it's clearly there to see in the waveforms. Doesn't matter what bass I'm using. I seem to remember reading a similar thread about this. I blame it on the player ..me. I'm not a bass player by trade and I don't use a pick. There always seem to be one or two notes that just zing, and one or two that are wimpy. For some reason, and moreso than with other instruments, you can't necessarily rely on the waveform to make automation decisions. All that said, I seem to have the problem less and less, which makes sense. I attribute that to better playing over time.
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Post by lcr on Oct 9, 2017 6:21:16 GMT -6
I normally use bass rider and vocal rider as my first plugin after trim. Not aggressively, just a little control in hoping to retain a little more transients before additional processing. Having a fader and also the ability to draw automation both have advantages. Looking at fader rides after I can tell thats something I would never draw, I like to use both.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 9, 2017 8:12:17 GMT -6
M57 has had a similar experience to me, so at least it probably isn't something I'm doing improperly.
All my bass tracks were done elsewhere in a good studio environment, both mic'd and DI, but there are still those boomy notes. Maxbass is nice, but it doesn't help with the boomy notes. I don't think it's the bass player, the players on my tracks are real deal players.
Two tracks were easy, and that bass player used an unusual bass for recording, I've forgotten the make, he has beautiful vintage Fenders, but the other bass records better. So, my guess is it is the bass itself.
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Post by swurveman on Oct 9, 2017 8:31:58 GMT -6
Vocals come last for me, and yes, I ride every syllable or whatever it needs. It depends a lot on the compression, but I generally do not go heavy handed with a sta-level or smashed LA2a or something like that on the vocal to get it to sit. That's what automation is for. I automate with the vocal sitting WITHIN the mix. If I start with the vocal first, I'll be redoing it almost certainly. I might start with a vocal and get everything laid in around it, but when it comes to starting in with the fader moves, the instruments come first, vocals last. I make sure the track is solid, and the vocal is sitting where I want it. Then I start automating with a fader to dial it in. I'll use an Artist Mix to do that, or a Kensington (large ball) trackball. I am actually more accurate with the trackball. I'll look at waveforms, but by the time I get there, I am intimately familiar with the vocal, so I don't really need to watch waveforms. Plus, I mixed with consoles and tape machines for years, and there's nothing to see..... heh heh PS - compression gets used more for the sonics it imparts and for transient taming - ABSOLUTELY NOT for holding stuff in place so I don't need to automate things. After the compression flattens things out, almost everything gets automation moves. From subtle to massive. I puts life back into the music. If someone is using compression and mouse break points to automate and level out their mixes, the music tends to end up very static. Sometimes that's cool, but it's not the way live music sounds to me. I love compression, but I want life, movement and surprises in the music I mix. Even this simple Ac Gtrs, Bass, Piano piece has automation moves all over. For me, a mix is not done if I look at the volume moves display and see flat lines. You can obviously tell they are done by fader and not drawing lines. BTW, the mix sounded "good" with zero automation, but it was too flat and didn't achieve what I knew it could without the automation. hat. I rid I'm curious about why you automate while the compression is inserted and not automate first and then compress.
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Post by swurveman on Oct 9, 2017 8:46:08 GMT -6
While the Faderport is much better than a mouse it still feels less connected than the analog console faders but I guess it's a case of getting use to it. Do you have any advice on what you did to get used to it to be most effective? I have to admit, after seeing people using bass and vocal rider, it is tempting to check them out at least for obvious rides. Then use faderport for tweaking.
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Post by drbill on Oct 9, 2017 9:08:25 GMT -6
Vocals come last for me, and yes, I ride every syllable or whatever it needs. It depends a lot on the compression, but I generally do not go heavy handed with a sta-level or smashed LA2a or something like that on the vocal to get it to sit. That's what automation is for. I automate with the vocal sitting WITHIN the mix. If I start with the vocal first, I'll be redoing it almost certainly. I might start with a vocal and get everything laid in around it, but when it comes to starting in with the fader moves, the instruments come first, vocals last. I make sure the track is solid, and the vocal is sitting where I want it. Then I start automating with a fader to dial it in. I'll use an Artist Mix to do that, or a Kensington (large ball) trackball. I am actually more accurate with the trackball. I'll look at waveforms, but by the time I get there, I am intimately familiar with the vocal, so I don't really need to watch waveforms. Plus, I mixed with consoles and tape machines for years, and there's nothing to see..... heh heh PS - compression gets used more for the sonics it imparts and for transient taming - ABSOLUTELY NOT for holding stuff in place so I don't need to automate things. After the compression flattens things out, almost everything gets automation moves. From subtle to massive. I puts life back into the music. If someone is using compression and mouse break points to automate and level out their mixes, the music tends to end up very static. Sometimes that's cool, but it's not the way live music sounds to me. I love compression, but I want life, movement and surprises in the music I mix. Even this simple Ac Gtrs, Bass, Piano piece has automation moves all over. For me, a mix is not done if I look at the volume moves display and see flat lines. You can obviously tell they are done by fader and not drawing lines. BTW, the mix sounded "good" with zero automation, but it was too flat and didn't achieve what I knew it could without the automation. hat. I rid I'm curious about why you automate while the compression is inserted and not automate first and then compress. To bring life and movement to the music.
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Post by illacov on Oct 9, 2017 9:42:08 GMT -6
Pre fader Rides into compression, saturation and EQ if the circuitry or emulation reacts to amplitude as well as post fader Rides (post inserts) offers the most success for me. Sometimes the phrases needs more pre fader gain sometimes the need is for less and for post fader gain. Having both available is very useful and offers less guess work early on. An LA2A doing less traditional compression with the reduction set low but you can incur the transient softening of pushing the signal going in is a fine alternative to simply smashing a vocal or a bass. You have a fun push pull workflow that is for the most part fast and offers more room for style. Really sweet on verbs that feed into compression too!
Thanks -L.
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Post by spindrift on Oct 9, 2017 10:05:39 GMT -6
Recently got a Faderport and have been using it with Reaper. The trick is definitely NOT to look at the screen when doing fader rides otherwise you end up just mimicking mouse moves which is exactly the thing you were trying to escape from in the first place! Remember we're dealing with an audio medium here, not a visual medium, which is why I still find staring at DAW's a distraction when trying to make judgements about what I'm hearing. A 'Lights Out" monitor function that could be enabled to automatically black out the monitor during playback is something I have thought about. While the Faderport is much better than a mouse it still feels less connected than the analog console faders but I guess it's a case of getting use to it. Yes This. You're right RowMat....it is better not to look at the waveforms and use ears. Emotionally connect with the music. I'm going to try this when automating next. Also, someone mentioned that by this time, you know the vocal intimately and know where you want to duck it or push it instinctively. True true!
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Post by jeremygillespie on Oct 9, 2017 11:54:07 GMT -6
M57 has had a similar experience to me, so at least it probably isn't something I'm doing improperly. All my bass tracks were done elsewhere in a good studio environment, both mic'd and DI, but there are still those boomy notes. Maxbass is nice, but it doesn't help with the boomy notes. I son't think it's the bass player, the players on my tracks are real deal players. Two tracks were easy, and that bass player used an unusual bass for recording, I've forgotten the make, he has beautiful vintage Fenders, but the other bass records better. So, my guess is it is the bass itself. Most Fender basses, even the great vintage examples, have a dead note or two somewhere on the fretboard. I forget the reason why, but its definitely a known thing. I know mine has a dead spot on the Eb note on the A string. I've played a few others that have that same dead note. I haven't had the problem with a note blooming too much though. I'd probably try to fix that with TDR Nova. Its my go to ITB bass handler. Edit to add: I do know some people like the Fatfinger headstock weight while tracking as it adds mass to the neck and can change the resonant frequency of the instrument and can move the dead note to another spot or out of the frequency of the bass completely.
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Post by donr on Oct 9, 2017 12:41:24 GMT -6
My M.O. is first fix any glaring vocal level problems caused by comping or punching in by segmenting and setting soundbite levels. Then applying the EQ and compression for the vocal sound. Then looping phrases and sections and doing mouse click fader automation points to get the exact vibe out of the performance.
I don't look at the waveform, I look at the fader automation relative to 0. I don't find the visual distracting, I'm still listening to the vocal to get the desired result. Then I put a trim plugin at the end of the chain to do any further tweaking of vocal level in the mix, leaving the fader alone. Sometimes I may have to bus the tweaked vocal to another fader, but rarely.
I could do the riding automation before compression, but I already like the sound of the vocal by that point. The riding is just to place the performance where it needs to be. It does take time however.
I have never gotten the hang of using DP's fader automation. The mouse is the easiest way to do it.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Oct 9, 2017 13:01:46 GMT -6
Set aux input to the record input and use the aux fader to ride the fader to armed vocal track... u can also record thru plugins this way... put the plugins on the same aux track that you are fader riding ...
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Post by johneppstein on Oct 9, 2017 14:53:02 GMT -6
M57 has had a similar experience to me, so at least it probably isn't something I'm doing improperly. All my bass tracks were done elsewhere in a good studio environment, both mic'd and DI, but there are still those boomy notes. Maxbass is nice, but it doesn't help with the boomy notes. I don't think it's the bass player, the players on my tracks are real deal players. Two tracks were easy, and that bass player used an unusual bass for recording, I've forgotten the make, he has beautiful vintage Fenders, but the other bass records better. So, my guess is it is the bass itself. If you've got a guy with an active bass who isn't used to recording with one sometimes his EQ settings can cause problems.
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