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Post by NoFilterChuck on Aug 24, 2017 14:46:26 GMT -6
viciousbliss I did that same test using BlueCatAudio's FreqAnalyst 2, feeding Logic's Test Oscillator (set to -1db @ 18000hz) into MH ChannelStrip 3, then Eventide UltraChannel, then Waves REQ6. NONE of them show any noise the way cytomic is describing in the spectrum plot. However, in his pdf explaining his testing, he generates a 20hz, 200 hz, 2000 hz, and 20000hz signal +'whatever-his-filter-cutoff-is-set-to' signal into the filter he's testing. so, I set up 4 tracks with TestOsc set to those values, and put the EQs he's complaining about on the master fader with BCA's FreqAnalyst at the end, and did the same test. No rumble/noise at -70dbfs like he's claiming. Can anyone explain the right way to set up this test?
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Post by jazznoise on Aug 24, 2017 16:46:33 GMT -6
If you did the test and the result is no apparent noise then I'd argue his complaints are spurious and you should move on. It certainly doesn't correlate my understanding of a biquadratic filter. Unless you added an FIR stage, which would be fairly stupid in the context of a highpass. Regardless, digital filters never add noise. They're delay lines, not magic boxes.
It sounds like he's just talking shit for attention, to be blunt.
EDIT: Actually went through the mix session, I'd say you did a good job with what you had, I couldn't motivate myself to do a mix as there's a lot of prep work involved with all the clipping. Interesting to hear what was coming out of FOH - which seems to be mainly sax, drums and organ. There's a critical gain staging issue for this setup - a lot of things like the lovely bass tone are essentially destroyed by the clipping. -18 is plenty of room, the engineer should have all the gain he needs on the faders. With dynamic stuff like slap -24 is acceptable, there's no noise issues and the extra headroom isn't going to add major hum. If ye want to do nice production videos, he's going to have to let the setup mutate into a hybrid live/FOH recording setup.
What's the guitarist's story? He's DI'd, but it sounds like he turns up towards the end so I feel like he's using some dirt. Is it an active guitar or is the engineer turning up the gain? Regardless, I'd even just dangle a 609 in front of the amp.
I'd also argue for a stereo audience mic, because audience should always be ORTF (better band/crowd separation, very effective in this scenario to keep the ambiance off the band).
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 24, 2017 17:25:26 GMT -6
It just occurred to me that you said "ya'll." Has it become the de facto "you all?"
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Post by svart on Aug 24, 2017 18:17:15 GMT -6
It just occurred to me that you said "ya'll." Has it become the de facto "you all?" Dude, you live in Nashville. You should know that it is.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Aug 25, 2017 0:22:27 GMT -6
EDIT: Actually went through the mix session, I'd say you did a good job with what you had, I couldn't motivate myself to do a mix as there's a lot of prep work involved with all the clipping. Interesting to hear what was coming out of FOH - which seems to be mainly sax, drums and organ. There's a critical gain staging issue for this setup - a lot of things like the lovely bass tone are essentially destroyed by the clipping. -18 is plenty of room, the engineer should have all the gain he needs on the faders. With dynamic stuff like slap -24 is acceptable, there's no noise issues and the extra headroom isn't going to add major hum. If ye want to do nice production videos, he's going to have to let the setup mutate into a hybrid live/FOH recording setup. What's the guitarist's story? He's DI'd, but it sounds like he turns up towards the end so I feel like he's using some dirt. Is it an active guitar or is the engineer turning up the gain? Regardless, I'd even just dangle a 609 in front of the amp. I'd also argue for a stereo audience mic, because audience should always be ORTF (better band/crowd separation, very effective in this scenario to keep the ambiance off the band). Glen said they have 2 audience mics, but somewhere they're connected to the board via a Y-cable, hence the mono signal. The guitar player is kinda clueless about technology. so the amp he uses is cranked to 10, and his pedal board is on 2 and is super noisy. because his amp is set so loud, he turns way down, and the DI is in between his pedal board and the amp. So, his signal that heads to the converters is super low, even tho it sounds loud in the room because his amp is turned up so high. it's a tiny marshall amp, similar to one of these marshallamps.com/products/amplifiers/one-watt-series/jvm-1c/ The people running the console or Midas rig are just not paying attention to the meters for everyone, so they don't notice that the bass is clipping almost all the time. perhaps they can't control the Midas preamps from where they are in the room (they're in the balcony of the sanctuary, the Midas converters for the console are downstairs in the machine room)
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Post by viciousbliss on Aug 25, 2017 3:16:46 GMT -6
So there's problems with these files? Should make for an interesting session. I'll be looking at them soon as I do enjoy the challenge of fixing recordings.
Maybe we can start another thread about whether these plugin tests are accurate. I tested a lot of eq plugs and the MH was one of two that had the rumble issue. MH hasn't emailed to say there's been a new version of Channel Strip since I bought it. The MH Channel Strip also had some problems with the Non-Mio compressors. Hold times or something. Not sure if MH ever fixed it. MH did not deny any of the claims made by the user who tested for rumble. They just told him he had a chance to test it and denied his refund request. No one on the analysis thread told me I messed anything up with my testing. Someone suggested I use SPAN instead of Waves PAZ and I got the same result on the MH and Pro Tools EQ3 7 band. When I replaced EQ3 with Pro Q2 on my aux fx tracks where I had been using it to cut extreme lows and highs, there was a noticeable difference. Andy doesn't have a competing eq product and he could specifically name all the 32 bit df1 biquad plugins he says are out there. If there are a lot of plugins with serious defects being used, it's something that should be of everyone's concern. It's not like the developers are measuring for problems and then posting about it. Mixing can be difficult as is, last thing we need is to be mixing with more obstacles.
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Post by jazznoise on Aug 25, 2017 4:47:47 GMT -6
Glen said they have 2 audience mics, but somewhere they're connected to the board via a Y-cable, hence the mono signal. The guitar player is kinda clueless about technology. so the amp he uses is cranked to 10, and his pedal board is on 2 and is super noisy. because his amp is set so loud, he turns way down, and the DI is in between his pedal board and the amp. So, his signal that heads to the converters is super low, even tho it sounds loud in the room because his amp is turned up so high. it's a tiny marshall amp, similar to one of these marshallamps.com/products/amplifiers/one-watt-series/jvm-1c/ The people running the console or Midas rig are just not paying attention to the meters for everyone, so they don't notice that the bass is clipping almost all the time. perhaps they can't control the Midas preamps from where they are in the room (they're in the balcony of the sanctuary, the Midas converters for the console are downstairs in the machine room) Sorry now, but not good enough imho. Things like bass are set and forget, the guy doesn't own a bass that's 30dB louder for certain gigs. If the channel list is consistent the settings are the same it's a 3 minute job of running around one sunday morning to never have the same issue ever again. Regardless, they're supposed to be professionals and they should be resolving those technical errors. Running clipped signals all the time is a pretty basic mistake. I'm not a FOH guy but 70+% of the time I've done it I've been asked for a stereo or multi-track out and I've always set the gain staging properly for my device and whatever one they've brought because I'm the sound guy and it's sort of my job. If they want me to do FOH, and do monitors and cue music between acts and make sure it all feeds the H4 they gave me then hey that's what I'm doing tonight. Audience mics need to be stereo, it's standard broadcast practice and they have the channels. Lose the 2nd kick mic if they're running low. Again if these guys are volunteers, I feel I'm probably overstepping my mark but the budget involved here implies they're paid so they should act like it. (Guitarist needs to be white lied into not ruining things either. Can one of the cool guitarists at service do a jam with him and maybe suggest "You know what I like to do? Properly gain stage my guitar" or something. It'll never self balance if that guy doesn't know what balance is. At the very least he's going to have the other musicians constantly adjusting to try and compensate.)
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Aug 25, 2017 6:25:39 GMT -6
Glen said they have 2 audience mics, but somewhere they're connected to the board via a Y-cable, hence the mono signal. The guitar player is kinda clueless about technology. so the amp he uses is cranked to 10, and his pedal board is on 2 and is super noisy. because his amp is set so loud, he turns way down, and the DI is in between his pedal board and the amp. So, his signal that heads to the converters is super low, even tho it sounds loud in the room because his amp is turned up so high. it's a tiny marshall amp, similar to one of these marshallamps.com/products/amplifiers/one-watt-series/jvm-1c/ The people running the console or Midas rig are just not paying attention to the meters for everyone, so they don't notice that the bass is clipping almost all the time. perhaps they can't control the Midas preamps from where they are in the room (they're in the balcony of the sanctuary, the Midas converters for the console are downstairs in the machine room) Sorry now, but not good enough imho. Things like bass are set and forget, the guy doesn't own a bass that's 30dB louder for certain gigs. If the channel list is consistent the settings are the same it's a 3 minute job of running around one sunday morning to never have the same issue ever again. Regardless, they're supposed to be professionals and they should be resolving those technical errors. Running clipped signals all the time is a pretty basic mistake. I'm not a FOH guy but 70+% of the time I've done it I've been asked for a stereo or multi-track out and I've always set the gain staging properly for my device and whatever one they've brought because I'm the sound guy and it's sort of my job. If they want me to do FOH, and do monitors and cue music between acts and make sure it all feeds the H4 they gave me then hey that's what I'm doing tonight. Audience mics need to be stereo, it's standard broadcast practice and they have the channels. Lose the 2nd kick mic if they're running low. Again if these guys are volunteers, I feel I'm probably overstepping my mark but the budget involved here implies they're paid so they should act like it. (Guitarist needs to be white lied into not ruining things either. Can one of the cool guitarists at service do a jam with him and maybe suggest "You know what I like to do? Properly gain stage my guitar" or something. It'll never self balance if that guy doesn't know what balance is. At the very least he's going to have the other musicians constantly adjusting to try and compensate.) They're volunteers. Only the band gets paid. The guitar player got cut down to 2 services/month because of how noisy his setup was.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Aug 25, 2017 6:29:35 GMT -6
So there's problems with these files? Should make for an interesting session. I'll be looking at them soon as I do enjoy the challenge of fixing recordings. Maybe we can start another thread about whether these plugin tests are accurate. I tested a lot of eq plugs and the MH was one of two that had the rumble issue. MH hasn't emailed to say there's been a new version of Channel Strip since I bought it. The MH Channel Strip also had some problems with the Non-Mio compressors. Hold times or something. Not sure if MH ever fixed it. MH did not deny any of the claims made by the user who tested for rumble. They just told him he had a chance to test it and denied his refund request. No one on the analysis thread told me I messed anything up with my testing. Someone suggested I use SPAN instead of Waves PAZ and I got the same result on the MH and Pro Tools EQ3 7 band. When I replaced EQ3 with Pro Q2 on my aux fx tracks where I had been using it to cut extreme lows and highs, there was a noticeable difference. Andy doesn't have a competing eq product and he could specifically name all the 32 bit df1 biquad plugins he says are out there. If there are a lot of plugins with serious defects being used, it's something that should be of everyone's concern. It's not like the developers are measuring for problems and then posting about it. Mixing can be difficult as is, last thing we need is to be mixing with more obstacles. Better grab em quick as I'm gonna be pulling them soon. Glen came over last night and shot a vid with me breaking down his mix, and I'll be offering the vid + the project files + stems as a product to my YouTube audience.
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Post by svart on Aug 25, 2017 10:29:36 GMT -6
I made another mix in a hurry which I think sounded much better than my old one, but I failed to save it.. I was trying to do another mix right after it for another artist and I had both sets of files up and closed them all out together without saving this mix.
I'll see if I can re-create it tonight maybe.
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Post by jazznoise on Aug 27, 2017 10:22:39 GMT -6
Yeah the guitarist should probably go. Good news is that if it's a 500 seater church you probably have at least 300 guitarists to pick from.
Shame they don't have a full time engineer they pay to at least supervise the team and dot the i's and cross the t's. Would you put yourself forward? Seems a bit much, I know, but make the case that it's needed and suggest a token amount to warrant the hours you'd be putting in. For the rig that's there it'd make sense to have someone who is over it full time and with whom the buck stops.
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Post by svart on Aug 28, 2017 8:47:08 GMT -6
Ok, here's my second mix. www.theopiumdenproductions.com/RGO/ChuckMix3.mp3Spent a little more time getting the mids tucked in, and some more editing on the guitar to keep the noise to a minimum (but that meant really keeping the guitar really low for the most part). Since there is no vocals, I treated the sax as more of the "vocal" this time.
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Post by svart on Aug 28, 2017 8:50:03 GMT -6
Good news is that if it's a 500 seater church you probably have at least 300 guitarists to pick from. LULZ. It's funny because it's true.
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