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Post by wiz on Jun 25, 2017 16:25:46 GMT -6
Sibilance to my mind in recording, is sort of an aritifical creation of the physics of sound and microphones...
You don't hear it at the same levels in normal everyday life.
The last thing IMHO you should do is try and tell someone to sing differently, they need to be free and the last thing you want to do is make them self conscious.
Mic placement, followed by mic choice....
This is something the engineer and producer should take care of without the talent becoming aware of in most cases... specially with the new to the studio clients....
Don't forget, you can edit post, and manually de ess... only takes 10 -15 minutes unless its a she sells sea shells by the sea shore cover... 8)
Get the performance.... 8)
cheers
Wiz
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Post by rowmat on Jun 25, 2017 16:44:58 GMT -6
On side note, we had two female singers (sisters) in about six weeks ago for a five song demo session. Their mic technique required no de-essing and very little compression or EQ. (none was used while tracking) And they didn't hold back. I used a Bock 251 and a DIY C12 (Matador/Chunger) and no sibilance issues with either. Basically you could have stuck almost any mic in front of them and ended up with something decent. 30 plus years of professional experience recording and touring was obvious and they were a breeze to record after a couple of somewhat difficult vocal tracking sessions with some less experienced clients. Watching them work the mics along with their dynamic control was a joy not to mention the time it saves in post. I'm giving Wiz three guesses who these sisters are but I can't confirm it or I'll have to shoot him! I know EXACTLY who you are talking about!!! Man, I would love to hear them up close and personal in the studio like that... I was watching them last Sat Night on that TV show that bears a portion of my nickname.... 8).... they were brilliant as usual.... cheers Wiz Neither confirming or denying We are a private project studio about an hour out of Melbourne and regularly work with fairly well known artists for demo's, pre-production and some album work so I can't be too specific while work is in progress. Here's 'L' in the vocal booth.
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Post by jazznoise on Jun 25, 2017 17:28:52 GMT -6
Agreed on the performance psychology wiz, hard enough to relax in a studio for some as it is! I will say I think some mics enhance sibilance but it's naturally there. The issue is that at speech volume while watching someone speak our brain does an awful lot of different thinks and so we don't notice much of anything till it becomes very extreme. The recording of the voice, against music, with no visual cue and at any arbitrary SPL level makes a big difference to how our brain perceives the human voice.
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Post by rowmat on Jun 25, 2017 17:43:36 GMT -6
If sibilance can't be totally controlled during tracking I find manual dessing (as Wiz has already mentioned) generally gives the best results. I will duplicate the vocal track and cut and delete everything in the track except for the esses, pops, and hard constenants.
I then phase reverse this edited track of 'esses' and mix it with the original vocal track adjusting the level of the 'esses' track to control the amount of de-essing using phase cancellation.
I'll also often very heavily de-ess the reverb send to avoid any splashiness in the verb.
Fab Filter's Pro DS is pretty good for moderate de-essing.
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Post by mrholmes on Jun 25, 2017 19:21:23 GMT -6
Sorry guys I am getting old ...sure I did manuall deessing in the past but totaly forgot about it ... sometimes I dont see the easy way....
Logical thats the most natural sounding method which I will use this time. To angle the mic helped too, thanks for the reminder but It cant solve it all the lady has some strong Ssssssss going on.
Thank god she can sing.... love it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2017 1:58:43 GMT -6
If sibilance can't be totally controlled during tracking I find manual dessing (as Wiz has already mentioned) generally gives the best results. I will duplicate the vocal track and cut and delete everything in the track except for the esses, pops, and hard constenants. I then phase reverse this edited track of 'esses' and mix it with the original vocal track adjusting the level of the 'esses' track to control the amount of de-essing using phase cancellation. I'll also often very heavily de-ess the reverb send to avoid any splashiness in the verb. Fab Filter's Pro DS is pretty good for moderate de-essing. cool trick - cheers. p.s. was it the Wizzer Sisters?
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Post by wiz on Jun 26, 2017 4:53:29 GMT -6
If sibilance can't be totally controlled during tracking I find manual dessing (as Wiz has already mentioned) generally gives the best results. I will duplicate the vocal track and cut and delete everything in the track except for the esses, pops, and hard constenants. I then phase reverse this edited track of 'esses' and mix it with the original vocal track adjusting the level of the 'esses' track to control the amount of de-essing using phase cancellation. I'll also often very heavily de-ess the reverb send to avoid any splashiness in the verb. Fab Filter's Pro DS is pretty good for moderate de-essing. cool trick - cheers. p.s. was it the Wizzer Sisters? Kransky Sisters 8) google them cheers Wiz
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Post by donr on Jun 26, 2017 11:37:27 GMT -6
Another is, if a gap in the front teeth is accentuating it then small bit of discreetly placed chewing gum to plug the gap, could work. ..and if they're singing flat, have them stand on their tippy toes. Just kidding. But seriously - I never thought of that. Fixing the problem by physically altering the instrument is a real interesting and valid concept for vocals. I'll be tempted to try it on my own vocal at some point. NY jingle producer David Lucas (the real "more cowbell" guy,) would advise us to "think sharp" to correct singing flat in the studio. It works, just being conscious corrects the problem. Also, he taught us to use only one headphone, the other ear listening to the room.
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Post by jazznoise on Jun 26, 2017 16:13:50 GMT -6
Room mic in the monitor mix - I'm telling ya, it's a miracle for pitching.
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Post by reddirt on Jun 26, 2017 19:00:16 GMT -6
Rowmat's trick of duplicate/editing/ phase reversing is the absolute duck's, guys. Just working on a track I was by and large going to let go except for a couple of manual edits and just had to post how bloody happy I am with this trick. Previously I would manually edit but it was a bit of "experienced guess work" as to how much to lower each sibilant piece and futz around till it was near enough. Now you can automate each bit according to what it needs. Love it, love it , love it!
Cheers Ross
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Post by rowmat on Jun 26, 2017 19:35:42 GMT -6
Rowmat's trick of duplicate/editing/ phase reversing is the absolute duck's, guys. Just working on a track I was by and large going to let go except for a couple of manual edits and just had to post how bloody happy I am with this trick. Previously I would manually edit but it was a bit of "experienced guess work" as to how much to lower each sibilant piece and futz around till it was near enough. Now you can automate each bit according to what it needs. Love it, love it , love it! Cheers Ross No worries. I can guarantee I'm not the only one to come up with this as I first got the idea of phase cancelling the esses using the DAW from SPL's hardware de-esser which uses phase cancellation. I assume their plugin works in similar fashion. However the problem with most phase cancellation methods is the hardware/plugin still has to first extract the sibilance for the phase cancelling from the main track. This requires some kind of filter and the associated threshold, filter slopes, phase anomalies etc. typically resulting artifacts in the final result. By duplicating the vocal track in the DAW and cutting out everything but the sibilance in the phase cancelling track this method just lowers the amplitude of the esses without futzing with the tone in any way. No fur, lisps or dulling of the esses. You can of course manually volume automate just the esses but I also found this difficult and time consuming to get an overall uniform amount of de-essing. I was always having to keep tweaking each individual 's'. With the phase reversal method setting around 4-6db of de-essing globally over the entire track does the job 90% of the time. There's still the option of automating the reverse phase de-essing track but I find I rarely have to automate as this phase cancellation method kind of self adjusts depending on the strength of the esses which are each matched in level by their corresponding identical, but out of phase 'self'.
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Post by rowmat on Jun 27, 2017 0:44:30 GMT -6
With or without ketchup? cool trick - cheers. p.s. was it the Wizzer Sisters? Kransky Sisters 8) google them cheers Wiz
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 27, 2017 12:40:54 GMT -6
You don't need to make the singer try and 'aim' off axis either. Rotate the mic a little in the clip/mount. Works wonders. And like other people have mentioned, place the mic a little high and angle downwards a little. Well, you probably don't want the mic off-axis all the time, just on the bad sibalants.
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Post by ragan on Jun 27, 2017 12:55:43 GMT -6
You don't need to make the singer try and 'aim' off axis either. Rotate the mic a little in the clip/mount. Works wonders. And like other people have mentioned, place the mic a little high and angle downwards a little. Well, you probably don't want the mic off-axis all the time, just on the bad sibalants. Yeah, I guess that's true. If the singer can pull it off and stay relaxed not get way up their own arse about it, angling away on just those sibilants would probably be best.
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 28, 2017 5:08:51 GMT -6
Well, you probably don't want the mic off-axis all the time, just on the bad sibalants. Yeah, I guess that's true. If the singer can pull it off and stay relaxed not get way up their own arse about it, angling away on just those sibilants would probably be best. It's what I do and it works pretty well about 90% of the time. Of course I didn't have to have a big argument trying to get the vocalist to think it was his idea......
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 28, 2017 5:09:43 GMT -6
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 28, 2017 5:34:54 GMT -6
Sibilance to my mind in recording, is sort of an aritifical creation of the physics of sound and microphones... Not neccessarily. Sometimes it's a result of dental structure or the result of false teeth. Some people are just naturally sibalant. Also, it's a vocal affectation that is or was moderately popular among young women of a certain social type. I certainly do. The sibalance in certain people's normal speaking voices drives me up a tree. I first noticed it in the voices of some of my mom's older friends - the hissing and slight whistling used to annoy the crap out of me.... Is it not a producer's job to coax a better performance from te artist than what they, on their own, would settle for? But no, you should not make them self conscious. If that happens either you're not doing it right or they're just not ready for direction. Mic technique used to be part of the equation. Watch films of the best old singers in the studio. Watch how mic technique is integrated into the performance style. A lot of that's being lost with the shift away from a proper commercial studio environment and with the "modern" desire for "expedient" solutions. Of course the irony is that when integrated into a singer's performing style, good mic technique is the most expedient solution of all.....
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Post by iamasound on Jun 30, 2017 10:54:23 GMT -6
Well, if all else fails, rewrite the lyrics so that no word has a slithery s or essy sounding c. For example: "I' m dreaming of a white...mas, much like the one I knew before." Just a last resort!!! Of course.
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 30, 2017 16:11:15 GMT -6
Well, if all else fails, rewrite the lyrics so that no word has a slithery s or essy sounding c. For example: "I' m dreaming of a white...mas, much like the one I knew before." Just a last resort!!! Of course. "I'm dreaming of a brown New Year's........"
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