ericn
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Post by ericn on Apr 23, 2017 21:08:41 GMT -6
There is no doubting Bills skills and the fact that he has developed a methodology and with the help of Brad, tools designed around his approach. I do wish I could reach the high standards I have set for myself working like Bill does. Life would be much simpler if I could, but I haven't, and yeah I'm a bit jealous of Bill, but I think the real lesson here is to find your own way, we live in a time when there isn't a right or wrong approach, the thing about hybrid is it's about taking the bits that work for you!
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Post by drbill on Apr 23, 2017 22:07:30 GMT -6
drbill has inspired me as well. I'm just starting to really get into hybrid mixing and it's really opening my eyes. #1 for me have a good patchbay setup. #2 make sure the outboard gear is high quality not Low End kind of stuff that's not the right idea for this. #3 have fun! It's a refreshing way to work, and the results are self evident. My next paycheck is 100% going to finishing my 500 rack. Well, I need some bass drum heads too, so 90% There is some low end gear that sounds not bad. The ART pro VLA 2 is killer on base and kick drums and sometimes vocals....never left my rack. The SPL charisma killer for tube harmonics and dynamics... There are a lot of sleepers on the used market drbill once mentioned a compressor from the 80s which I should watch out on ebay. Forgot the brand because it was mainly sold in the US and I gave up on it. Agreed. Price is not necessarily the delineator of quality sonics. Capi is a good example of that. Here's your compressors. Seems the cat must be out of the bag. The price has more than doubled in the last 3 years or so. I prefer the 661, but the 651 is great as well and they are quite similar. Here you go - buy em up! I've got 4 661's in my rack, and I much prefer them over any of the more inexpensive comps like DBX 160/x, etc.. www.ebay.com/itm/Aphex-651-rackmount-Compressor-Limiter-/222388825930?hash=item33c7682f4a:g:9TEAAOSwopRYiPtkwww.ebay.com/itm/Aphex-661-Expressor-with-Tubessence-Tube-Compressor-Limiter-Vintage-Rack-/171522469954?hash=item27ef893042:g:F8oAAOSwQiRUlafB
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Post by drbill on Apr 23, 2017 22:17:29 GMT -6
There is no doubting Bills skills and the fact that he has developed a methodology and with the help of Brad, tools designed around his approach. I do wish I could reach the high standards I have set for myself working like Bill does. Life would be much simpler if I could, but I haven't, and yeah I'm a bit jealous of Bill, but I think the real lesson here is to find your own way, we live in a time when there isn't a right or wrong approach, the thing about hybrid is it's about taking the bits that work for you! You are far, far too gracious my friend. This thing about expressing creativity through music is a journey - and we are all on it. We're are all on the same path even though at times it may look like it's going different directions. IMO, it matters not WHERE on the path you are, or what tools you are using - but only that you seek more, and better ways in the journey - and progress along your pathway. My hopes are that you, and mrholmes and everyone else here can find the missing link in your personal journey that will allow you to make better and more inspired music. Because music is a gift. A blessing. And it's our job to conjour it up. And because of that, we get very passionate about the tools we use, because they often allow us to achieve what we hear in our soul - so it's only natural to get passionate about them. But in my experience, it's rarely found in the far out of reach things like that vintage matched pair of C12's I wish for.... But quite often very simple things like having more i/o or a better configured patch bay or speakers that don't "hum" that change up our workflow in positive ways that help us make better music. For me, the hybrid approach has been a Godsend. A way to bridge two very different worlds. I long for the workflow and techniques of making albums in the 80's and 90's, but I live in 2017.... And I strive to pull the two together in my sonics, creativity, workflow and in my mind. That's the reason the Silver Bullet came into existence. My persistence at finding a better, simpler and more creative solution to a problem I was having, and the vision that became a reality - when Brad and I found out we had a similar vision and teamed up together. It's blessed a lot of people's journey, and for that one reason alone Brad and I both feel like all the difficulties along the journey were worthwhile. Make some music with whatever tools that you've got!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Godspeed........... (feeling philosophical tonight.....)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2017 22:53:53 GMT -6
I work at 24 bit how does this apply? I have never used dither when going from digital to analog 😀 and my music sounds fine to ears way more " refined " than mine 😎🤓 In my mind the analog HW noise level is going to be higher than any added dither " shaped noise " to any signal being sent to the HW from the DAC.. theoretical yes 🤓 32 bit float has a sliding scale ( mantissa expressed as an exponent )and is not the same as 24 bit integer... I understand theoretically 32 bit float has infinite headroom however DAC or ADC cannnot reproduce that dynamic range when converting audio. Also why would I want to work in 32 bit float?.. Thanks in advance ... So is this info incorrect? "24-bit audio does not require dithering, as the noise level of the digital converter is always louder than the required level of any dither that might be applied. 24-bit audio could theoretically encode 144 dB of dynamic range, but based on manufacturer's datasheets no ADCs exist that can provide higher than ~125 dB." Hopefully someone can explain all this to you because I'm interested as well . One little test with dither is mix all ITB , bounce to disk in Pro Tools @24 bit , one mix with no dither , the other with 24bit dither as the last plugin . It saves the mix from imploding on itself . I don't understand all this digital stuff , but having to do that is werid to me as well . Shouldn't the software automatically fix stuff like this for you so you shouldn't have to Dither all the time ?YES. Exactly. Dither is no aesthetical choice. It is a part of a technical conversion process. Leave it out and you get the quantization error. "Does this apply to 24bit? Is the (-other-)converter noise not actually bigger than the quantization error?" This is a bit like - "It is already dirty, no problem, if you throw a bit mud on it." Actually, we have figures in mind of let's say 98dB SNR theoretically possible at 16bit. Looks pretty good, if you think of vinyl with maybe somewhere around 70. But that's not how it works. How many bits do you effectively use in your converter interface. On the way in and on the way out? You never go fullscale. Why? Because you don't need to. The first generation digital audio media suffered a lot from analog guys letting converters clip. We are even used to this sound. "Crisp". Nasty. So, effectively you get worse SNR that you might expect. Now, problem is - how many (re-)quantization processes do you have in your chain? Record a signal, do a bit digital processing, use an analog insert, back in the box. Does the mastering guy use an analog chain? Then you have the medium. The listener also listens thru a DAC. Rule of thumb always was ONE noise shaped dither maximum - at the END of the chain. Everything else - triangular dither with flat noise behaviour (TPDF). Aaaand quantization noise gets a lot nastier when it comes up in series. Do 20 loops thru an analog insert. Two times, one with dither before before DAC and one without. You might come up with the idea that it is not optional to dither. I guess. I have absolutely no clue, how often dither is applied when i work in the DAW with lots of plugins. We have a lot of marketing stuff in mind when we come to SNR, low noisefloor etc... If dither is not done, it is wrong implementation of technology. Nothing else. The "choice we left for the user to figure out the best dither for his personal taste" is a bit like "it's not a bug, it's a feature". No. Not a bit like. It is exactly like this. I know that most probably NOBODY will actually do the math, but you still might get a vague understanding, what is going on there. Why not profit at least a bit from people who did it? Especially if you are NOT one of the DSP nerds who eat integrals for lunch and relax while reading Stephen Hawking.... www.skillbank.co.uk/SignalConversion/snr.htm
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2017 23:08:54 GMT -6
Oh, and of course you want to work im 32 or 64 bit float *because* you have near infinite headroom, clean gain. There WERE DAWs which used only integer formats. Not too long ago. They sounded "different". Guess why DAW would sound different - without intended distortion effects. All these things that gave digital such a bad image in the first generations of digital audio. Harsh digital clipping e.g.. Actually much worse than properly dithered conversions.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Apr 25, 2017 6:31:17 GMT -6
if ADC and DAC can't reproduce the audio dynamic range that 32 bit float represents how are you actually working in 32 bit float hearing or having this DR reproduced?
I understand that working internally at 32 bit float then going to HW externally would need dither because the DAC works at 24 bits... I'm cool with dither when changing the bit depth, and this lines up with my understanding / teaching/ learning/ experience...It's the 24 bit to 24 bit dither im asking about?
If Dither is not an answer and only covers up or masks the Quantization Distortion, how do you know your dither is " loud enough " to mask the " distortion from errors "?
How audible are the quantization distortions?
How does masking errors with noise make the top end / clearer?
Does the quantization distortion only occur in HF affecting the top end or HF?
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Post by Ward on Apr 25, 2017 9:32:27 GMT -6
Does 32 but float reduce to 24 bit through using LSB tech?
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Post by mrholmes on Apr 25, 2017 9:34:23 GMT -6
Cool can someone from the US assist me with this outside the US they charge huge shipping costs something like 75$ and more, or they don't send to the EU. It could be send the cheap and long way...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2017 11:31:55 GMT -6
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Post by mrholmes on Apr 25, 2017 12:00:38 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2017 13:36:21 GMT -6
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Post by rowmat on Apr 25, 2017 16:40:56 GMT -6
I have Aphex 651's and 661's and agree with DrBill as I also prefer the 661 mainly for it's better metering and stereo linking capability.
The 661's tube stage can be bypassed altogether if preferred with a link on the PCB although Jim Williams suggests fitting a switch to the front if you want the option to easily bypass or enable it on the fly.
The tube stage does add some euphonic coloration and turned out to be less of a gimmick than I thought it would be.
My first Aphex product was the original Compeller and it blew me away that it could remain seemingly transparent with often insane amounts of gain reduction.
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Post by Guitar on Apr 25, 2017 16:47:09 GMT -6
Are they good on vocals? I'm looking out for affordable vocal hardware.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Apr 25, 2017 17:27:10 GMT -6
Are they good on vocals? I'm looking out for affordable vocal hardware. Used Warm audio wa76? Well i looked on eBay and there aren't any..Only one factory re-pack for $539.. the wa76 have been out awhile as well... to me that speaks to the quality being pretty awesome and says the product performs as intended... been very happy with mine that I purchased new 😀
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Post by Guitar on Apr 25, 2017 17:31:17 GMT -6
Are they good on vocals? I'm looking out for affordable vocal hardware. Used Warm audio wa76? Well i looked on eBay and there aren't any..Only one factory re-pack for $539.. the wa76 have been out awhile as well... to me that speaks to the quality being pretty awesome and says the product performs as intended... been very happy with mine that I purchased new 😀 $400-600 1176 is definitely on my very short list.
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Post by drbill on Apr 25, 2017 21:45:17 GMT -6
Are they good on vocals? I'm looking out for affordable vocal hardware. For tracking? Yes. Excellent. Much better than an 1176. Speaking of the 661. Excellent transparent comp. You just don't hear it, and you can be compressing 10+ dB.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Apr 25, 2017 21:59:19 GMT -6
Are they good on vocals? I'm looking out for affordable vocal hardware. For tracking? Yes. Excellent. Much better than an 1176. Speaking of the 661. Excellent transparent comp. You just don't hear it, and you can be compressing 10+ dB. And the funny thing is the fact that you don't hear it is what scares the crap out of many!
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Post by drbill on Apr 25, 2017 22:08:25 GMT -6
For tracking? Yes. Excellent. Much better than an 1176. Speaking of the 661. Excellent transparent comp. You just don't hear it, and you can be compressing 10+ dB. And the funny thing is the fact that you don't hear it is what scares the crap out of many! I can't tell you how many vocal or bass sessions I've done where I had it set and have been happily listening and tracking away, only to look over and realize I'm hitting close to 15dB GR and I thought I was only getting 2-4dB. Sometime I'd just leave it. LOL I had one of the first ones when they introduced them what? Close to 20 years ago? Longer? And it's been rock solid, with nothing more than the occasional scratchy pot if it doesn't get used. Twisting them always clears that up.... :-) I know Jim can mod these and clean them up even more, but I never felt the need for it.
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Post by rowmat on Apr 26, 2017 3:32:43 GMT -6
The guy I bought my first Aphex Compellor from said the same thing. "I don't know if it's really working or not. I can't hear it." For tracking? Yes. Excellent. Much better than an 1176. Speaking of the 661. Excellent transparent comp. You just don't hear it, and you can be compressing 10+ dB. And the funny thing is the fact that you don't hear it is what scares the crap out of many!
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Post by iamasound on Apr 26, 2017 8:40:19 GMT -6
Yes, the Warm 1176 a fine piece of kit and sounds stellar with everything that it has been sent its way, vocals, drums, all sorts of guitars bass. It also seems pretty non obtrusive to me even dealing with some 12-18 dB of gain reduction, or can be brutal while delivering crushing blows to drums or as a sound effect. Talking purely of transparency, I saw and heard the Charter Oak SCL1 on a Sound Pure video showcasing the transparency of this super clean compressor. It was very impressive as I really couldn't hear it working, not at all.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Apr 26, 2017 11:51:33 GMT -6
Please don't get upset this is just my opinion... and by no means am I trying to discredit anyone ears... this is my opinion and experience 😀
transparent compression towards -15db will def be audible imo with a correctly setup CR and monitors...
I have found one certain monitors make even -15db of compression or GR sound transparent when it's really a shortcoming of the monitors and room... I have to be careful sometimes when limiting things because my monitors are masking some of the distortions with their own not revealing some nastiness that would usually be audibly present in a better monitor..
The first time this happened to me was when I went from m audio bx5 to a CR with unity audio monitors with Tim de Pavirincini ( sp?) amps and starting compressing a vocal with the Avid Pro Compressor and it's like a freakin light bulb went off in my ears / head... finally " heard " the compression...
This was also in my 5th year working with music but only my actual 2nd year with experience and proper training ( schooling ) So yes my ear was obviously still developing and learning what to listen for...
I really like my hs8 monitors however they do not let you hear compression well... it was something I had to learn on them and it was kind of annoying for the first year of having the hs8...
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Post by drbill on Apr 26, 2017 19:14:48 GMT -6
I'm pretty sure I can hear compression. Also, I HAVE been know to exaggerate on occasion. :-) Let's call it 10dB to be safe. But seriously, it's very transparent. I've been hitting 15dB when someone changes their levels or moves 3 feet closer to the mic, or The compressor is the most transparent compressor of any that I've had the opportunity to use. LA2a, 3a, SSL's, 2254's, DBX of all varieties, VariMu, Distressors, 1176 of all varieties, and a bunch of others I can't think of right now,..... I can hear all of em when they are barely compressing. Except for the Aphex. If you want a comp that puts it's sonic stamp on your audio like an SSL, 1176, 3a, 2254 - this is NOT the right comp for you. There's room for both approaches in my world. I've got 4 of em right now.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Apr 26, 2017 21:07:55 GMT -6
I'm pretty sure I can hear compression. Also, I HAVE been know to exaggerate on occasion. :-) Let's call it 10dB to be safe. But seriously, it's very transparent. I've been hitting 15dB when someone changes their levels or moves 3 feet closer to the mic, or The compressor is the most transparent compressor of any that I've had the opportunity to use. LA2a, 3a, SSL's, 2254's, DBX of all varieties, VariMu, Distressors, 1176 of all varieties, and a bunch of others I can't think of right now,..... I can hear all of em when they are barely compressing. Except for the Aphex. If you want a comp that puts it's sonic stamp on your audio like an SSL, 1176, 3a, 2254 - this is NOT the right comp for you. There's room for both approaches in my world. I've got 4 of em right now. I think with the rediscovery of so much affordable blah vanilla and the surplus of similar plugins. True value clean almost invisible has lost its place . So many of those who understood the value seam to have gone in the box or digital console.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Apr 27, 2017 5:40:01 GMT -6
I have heard famous engineers talk about not hearing the compression before with certain iconic pieces... I always thought that was to sell the item.
For example: I always read and hear how a sta level is doing -20 Db of compression and people dont hear it or think it is not working... I always thought they meant the gear performed its duty so well it seemed effortless or like it wasn't working?
Idk, maybe dithering to and from HW will make compression more transparent for me 😬😀 now to test....
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Post by mrholmes on Apr 27, 2017 12:47:47 GMT -6
drbill you ever used the drawmer mx 30?
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