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Post by aamicrophones on Apr 18, 2017 18:55:42 GMT -6
The original C414eb microphones were my favourite over the drums and the favourite microphones on percussion. I missed that sound so much that one of the microphones I brought our early on was our CM414.
I also have a couple of tube microphones with the same AK12 capsule and a -10db pads that I use but these are overkill as the CM414's are class "A" circuit with a transformer coupled output.
However, the CM251CE (custom) tube microphones i built up for me did sound pretty amazing a live jazz record I did a few month ago.
You can use the CM414 in Cardiod, OMNI or FIG 8 and they have a -10db pad for close miking. I find with these you need very little of the tom microphones if any. i have even used the CM414 on the snare to give me that Quest Love drum sound.
I like to place the CM414's John Glynn style so they are not placed over top of the drums but more to the sides. I also sometimes add a ribbon over the snare just above the drummer's head which give some nice fattness to the snare while dulling the hi hats.
Our CM47fet in front of the kick does a great job and rivals the original U47fet in this situation. Ribbons are good when you need to mute the cymbals and condenser microphones when you require more detail in my experience.
I have some drum tracks with the CM414's that I just found that I will move into dropbox and then I can send a link to them.
I have CM414 L/R overheads, CM47fet out front of the kick and DM20 inside the kick. The tracks are dry with no EQ or FX.
Cheers, Dave
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Post by Guitar on Apr 18, 2017 19:09:52 GMT -6
The original C414eb microphones were my favourite over the drums and the favourite microphones on percussion. I missed that sound so much that one of the microphones I brought our early on was our CM414. I also have a couple of tube microphones with the same AK12 capsule and a -10db pads that I use but these are overkill as the CM414's are class "A" circuit with a transformer coupled output. However, the CM251CE (custom) tube microphones i built up for me did sound pretty amazing a live jazz record I did a few month ago. You can use the CM414 in Cardiod, OMNI or FIG 8 and they have a -10db pad for close miking. I find with these you need very little of the tom microphones if any. i have even used the CM414 on the snare to give me that Quest Love drum sound. I like to place the CM414's John Glynn style so they are not placed over top of the drums but more to the sides. I also sometimes add a ribbon over the snare just above the drummer's head which give some nice fattness to the snare while dulling the hi hats. Our CM47fet in front of the kick does a great job and rivals the original U47fet in this situation. Ribbons are good when you need to mute the cymbals and condenser microphones when you require more detail in my experience. I have some drum tracks with the CM414's that I just found that I will move into dropbox and then I can send a link to them. I have CM414 L/R overheads, CM47fet out front of the kick and DM20 inside the kick. The tracks are dry with no EQ or FX. Cheers, Dave Yeah I would love to hear how that sounds!
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Post by aamicrophones on Apr 18, 2017 19:23:20 GMT -6
I will load them into Dropbox after dinner and send you a link.
Cheers, Dave
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Post by aamicrophones on Apr 18, 2017 20:16:54 GMT -6
I have the CM414 OH files in Dropbox now plus my DM20 inside the kick and the CM47fet outside the kick.
I know how to send the Dropbox files to an e-mail address but I don't know how to link them to a forum post?
Cheers, Dave
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Post by jampa on Apr 18, 2017 20:42:48 GMT -6
dropbox has recently changed but this might still work when viewing the folder click the share button there is then a blue writing that says create a link, click it then it changes to copy link, click it then the link should be on your clipboard to paste, or you can manually copy it from that screen e.g. here are some stupid tests with different cymbals and drums www.dropbox.com/sh/8krkgp7qngionlw/AABERgQjtDSX7MtqY8qzCAFka?dl=0
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Post by aamicrophones on Apr 19, 2017 14:41:50 GMT -6
The T-Rex track was most likely recorded by Malcolm Toft through his Trident "A" range at Trident Studio.
Cheers, Dave
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Post by scumbum on Apr 19, 2017 16:53:42 GMT -6
I uploaded three new clips to my folder just now, after I re-ribboned my MXL R80 mic today. That mic sounds amazing now. The kick is sounding huger than ever, haha. First clip is just the ribbon and beater on kick, second clip adds in the subkick, gets really overbearing subterranean, third clip is showing what the Kush Omega A transformer does to the sound. Just some goop on things plus some crispness. I am really on the fence about processing right now since I'm getting these cleaner sounds lately. app.box.com/s/hs4jt3h4lvr8hod5bc4kriof5p4imdu5You using a stereo pair of the MXL R80 mics on Overhead ? Because the new clips sound much clearer and better .
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Post by Guitar on Apr 19, 2017 17:08:31 GMT -6
I uploaded three new clips to my folder just now, after I re-ribboned my MXL R80 mic today. That mic sounds amazing now. The kick is sounding huger than ever, haha. First clip is just the ribbon and beater on kick, second clip adds in the subkick, gets really overbearing subterranean, third clip is showing what the Kush Omega A transformer does to the sound. Just some goop on things plus some crispness. I am really on the fence about processing right now since I'm getting these cleaner sounds lately. app.box.com/s/hs4jt3h4lvr8hod5bc4kriof5p4imdu5You using a stereo pair of the MXL R80 mics on Overhead ? Because the new clips sound much clearer and better . The MXL R80 is outside of the front kick drum head. The only thing that changed is that mic, and my playing. Everything else is in the same place. The balance might be different on the mixing, I didn't do any sort of method, I always just mess them around by ear. Might just be a better mix. But the kick itself is also coming through much more clearly, with the microphone working as it should!
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Post by jazznoise on Apr 20, 2017 5:47:03 GMT -6
I like it without the subkick. Again take out a little bit of the 500Hz stuff will make it feel more balanced. The kick with the subkick is flabby, considering you can just boost some <80hz and get the bottom end that way, I don't see what the subkick would offer that the other kick mic can't provide, really. The floor tom sound is a little funny against the rest of the kit, try messing with the tuning/dampening or changing the overhead position to give it a little more body. That said the snare sounds quite good so if you just have to use more of the floor tom's spot mic, go with that.
I think you've used a lot more of the overhead in these clips? As you're making changes, you should try comparing the samples with the clips matched so get a better idea of what changes you're making. Otherwise you can't easily tell what's a recording issue and what's a balance issue.
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Post by Guitar on Apr 20, 2017 8:19:18 GMT -6
scumbum, jazznoise you guys have good ears. I seem to remember bumping up the clip gain on the overheads right before I exported those last samples. Every time I do that, lately, I just hear "more" of everything. That's where the title of this thread came from. It's also fun to mute the overheads and hear the image vanish underground. It occurs to me that the bottom head on my floor tom is most likely 15 years old or more, which is not acceptable to me at this point. That drum also seems quieter in a lot of my tracks, and also behind the kit. I'll get on that ASAP. Might be a quick fix. Thanks for the advice and picking out these specific issues. I think that subkick can come way down in the mix. I do think it adds a little bit of tightness to the kick sound, in moderation. Yeah I'm hearing some midrange mud and ringing etc as well, I think a good bit of that will come out with some mixing. It feels like time to write some new material and get on with it. I haven't touched a guitar in a week, haha!
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Post by scumbum on Apr 20, 2017 12:15:02 GMT -6
scumbum , jazznoise you guys have good ears. I seem to remember bumping up the clip gain on the overheads right before I exported those last samples. Every time I do that, lately, I just hear "more" of everything. That's where the title of this thread came from. It's also fun to mute the overheads and hear the image vanish underground. It occurs to me that the bottom head on my floor tom is most likely 15 years old or more, which is not acceptable to me at this point. That drum also seems quieter in a lot of my tracks, and also behind the kit. I'll get on that ASAP. Might be a quick fix. Thanks for the advice and picking out these specific issues. I think that subkick can come way down in the mix. I do think it adds a little bit of tightness to the kick sound, in moderation. Yeah I'm hearing some midrange mud and ringing etc as well, I think a good bit of that will come out with some mixing. It feels like time to write some new material and get on with it. I haven't touched a guitar in a week, haha! I think for sure you should do a cover of the Slider by Trex . With that drum sound your 50% of the way there . Floor tom shouldn't be a big issue . It sounds like it just needs a tweek on a few lugs . Ok two things i was hearing is I guess the overheads are louder and I don't like the Omega plugin on the cymbals . I think I could go either way on the rest of the drums . But definitely not on the cymbals . I don't mind your current Hi-Hat with the Omega turned off . Thats just me personally . I've found I like clean mic pres on cymbals . Thats why I thought you re-ribboned your overheads because without the Omega they sound much clearer . So for me , your drum sound is done and ready to go in the No Omega samples , like your ready to record some songs . Thats just my personal taste . Those Yammaha pres Rule ! They sound so good . I want to get them . And with the subkick .....did you time align the subkick track to the kick mic ? I used to use a 15" speaker as a subkick mic along with a mic in the kick drum . The subkick mic would need to be brought foward in time to line up with the kick mic , otherwise you'd get flabby kick . But like Jazznoise I gave up on double micing the kick . I think out of just laziness . So 1 mic in the kick and on the snare is all I use now .
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Post by Guitar on Apr 20, 2017 14:17:18 GMT -6
I think for sure you should do a cover of the Slider by Trex . With that drum sound your 50% of the way there . Floor tom shouldn't be a big issue . It sounds like it just needs a tweek on a few lugs . Ok two things i was hearing is I guess the overheads are louder and I don't like the Omega plugin on the cymbals . I think I could go either way on the rest of the drums . But definitely not on the cymbals . I don't mind your current Hi-Hat with the Omega turned off . Thats just me personally . I've found I like clean mic pres on cymbals . Thats why I thought you re-ribboned your overheads because without the Omega they sound much clearer . So for me , your drum sound is done and ready to go in the No Omega samples , like your ready to record some songs . Thats just my personal taste . Those Yammaha pres Rule ! They sound so good . I want to get them . And with the subkick .....did you time align the subkick track to the kick mic ? I used to use a 15" speaker as a subkick mic along with a mic in the kick drum . The subkick mic would need to be brought foward in time to line up with the kick mic , otherwise you'd get flabby kick . But like Jazznoise I gave up on double micing the kick . I think out of just laziness . So 1 mic in the kick and on the snare is all I use now . I ordered a new drum head for the floor tom, should inspire some careful tuning as well. That's a great idea to do a cover. Would force me to record, produce, and learn specific parts to play. I agree about the Omega A on cymbals, it gets a little pokey. The Omega N goes in the other direction and is almost too dark. Haha. Maybe I could target individual channels instead of the whole bus, like you said. Good idea! I might have to start looking back into UAD unison preamps after all... The preamps are 6 Apollos and 4 Yamahas to make up the total 10 channels. I'm only using half of the MLA-8 right now because the Apollo 8 only needs 4 extra preamps after its own. The Yamaha's are on toms and room mics I think. I'm getting back into the Apollo pres too now, they are just so clean sounding in a good way. I think it was drums that was the first thing I fell in love with when I got the first Apollo 2 years ago. Something good about it. I haven't done any time aligning yet, just simple polarity inversions. That article someone posted a few posts back was really informative, essential reading. I've actually got three mics on the kick but that might change. I'm thinking of going with new heads, and a front port, just to mix things up. I'm sort of a sub-kick junkie at this point so it would be hard to let that go. I've been thinking SDC and ribbons on oh/room is a pretty good combo all around. I sort of miss having my big tube mics in the room, that's another sound I'd like to go back to. I'm just so hyped up about ribbon mics right now! They are addictive and I want more.
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Post by scumbum on Apr 20, 2017 15:11:53 GMT -6
Those apollo pres sound great . Yeah clean in a really good way . I wouldn't' do a lot of time aligning , just the sub kick and kick mic . For years drums were never time aligned when recorded to tape . So I don't think it's the thing to do . But tom Lord- Alge does sometimes . He aligns everything to the snare track . In this article about mixing Weezer's album he talks about doing it . www.soundonsound.com/people/inside-track-tom-lord-alge
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Post by aamicrophones on Apr 20, 2017 15:24:16 GMT -6
Allright, thank to Jamba I was able to figure it out. THis makes it much easier to share files. So, here we have:- DM20 dynamic microphone inside the kick. CM47fet outside the kick CM414 L/OH CM414 R/OH The snare was an SM57 so I didn't copy it and there were 421 Sennheisers on the toms. The preamps were WSW Siemens DECCA 811351 Tube Valve Microphone Preamps 70db Mic Pre Module that had been fully re-furbished. www.dropbox.com/s/2csmemeb9r60o6q/01%20KICK%20IN%20DM20.wav?dl=0www.dropbox.com/s/fu13bu8z5co0jxa/02%20KICK%20OUT%20CM47FET.wav?dl=0www.dropbox.com/s/142x282f60o8nki/07%20OHL%20CM414.wav?dl=0www.dropbox.com/s/r7544bwage4cap1/08%20OHR%20CM414.wav?dl=0Now, that I know how to link DropBox files. Here is a rough mix of a live Jazz recording I did a few a few months ago. This was recorded with our:- 2-CM251 tube microphones on OH's which have the same capsules as our CM414. 2-CM414 microphones in the 7' grand piano 1-CM48T tube microphone on upright bass 1-CM47fet on the saxophone I ended up not using the CM47fet in front of the kick as there was enough of it in the leakage. There is no artificial reverb this is just the sound of the theatre (leakage) in all the microphones. There is no EQ on any of these microphones except I used an LP filter on the upright bass to reduce he cymbal leakage. The preamplifiers where my Behringer UFX 1604 come direct out the inserts into my RADAR STUDIO IZ Technologies converters. My sense is even though the single knob compressor in the Behringer is all the way off it still compressing a wee bit. www.dropbox.com/s/o59cmuih934a6sn/ZOOM0012_Tr12.WAV?dl=0Cheers, Dave
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Post by stormymondays on Apr 20, 2017 17:21:53 GMT -6
Hey Dave, I have a CM47 (tube). Will this work for a bass drum too?
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Post by Guitar on Apr 20, 2017 17:23:25 GMT -6
Hey Dave, I have a CM47 (tube). Will this work for a bass drum too? I'm not Dave, but I just wanted to say that a tube U47 was used on the bass drum of Back In Black engineered by Tony Platt, so I would think it would work.
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Post by aamicrophones on Apr 20, 2017 20:37:57 GMT -6
The CM47 should work in front of the kick.
The circuit can deliver nearly +30dbu before the transformer and the transformer has a 6.5:1 ratio so the microphone can produce an output of +14dbu before the onset of distortion and it won't start to sound nasty till past +24dbu as its a class "A" tube circuit.
The CM47 has nearly 6db more headroom than a U47. You won't blow it up or damage the diaphragm. If you are getting too much low end velocity from the kick then this is a good place to utilize a thicker foam pop filter.
The CCDA tube circuit has a output transformer, drive impedance 10 times lower than the original U47 so the CM47 should be a bit faster and have a bit more transparency. The U47 would yield a bit more "tube" compression & odd harmonic disortion which sound nice.
I haven't ever tried it on any "animal" like heavy metal/punk drummers but i have used in front of a double headed jazz kick with good results. I really like the CM47 on the bass amp. We will warranty it if it fails in front of the kick but not if someone kicks the microphone LOL.
It may clip some preamps? You would have to have a Neve 1073 down at the -20 setting and the fader or rotary pot set 6 to 10db below unity I would think. Our MT8016 starts at -10db gain.
Let me know how it works out.
Cheers, Dave
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