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Post by Guitar on Apr 15, 2017 18:53:06 GMT -6
You just gotta learn how to tune really well to get a good drum sound . I've battled drum tuning for awhile , but finally now have gotten a good tuning method for my drums . I recommend this DVD "Drum Tuning: Sound and Design...Simplified" by Bob Gatzen . www.ebay.com/itm/Drum-Tuning-Sound-and-Design-Simplified-DVD-2004-Bob-Gatzen-/272624993806?_trksid=p2385738.m2548.l4275I've found if the drum is tuned good the extra ringing can sound good . But when the drum is slightly tuned bad the ringing is horrible . I'm working on a new drum sound . Instead of using Overheads , put a pair in XY in front of the kit and then close mic . I tried it yesterday and I like it . All the mics point the same direction so everything is in phase . Heres an example , This is SCRATCH.....I'm writing a new song so I have a bunch of scratch tracks and still fine tuning all parts . So its sloppy . But the drums are 4 mics , XY pair in front of kit and close mics on kick and snare . No tom mics . Will probably add Tom and Hi-Hat mics . Hi-Hats are 15" zildjian cymbals . www.dropbox.com/s/jhbbekh5yfwmug9/He%27s%20The%20Smun%20-%20Scratch%202.wav?dl=0I've been checking out a few Bob Gatzen videos, good stuff. He seems to understand the ring and resonance at a pretty primal level. I heard that Sylvia Massey likes to place all her drum mics in the same direction, did you take any instruction from her? It's something I haven't tried yet. But sounds appealing. This is one of the less conventional approaches that I have been very curious about. I like your drum sound. I never would have thought to put the XY pair out front, but why not? I think any kind of stereo pair out front can probably get a good full sound out of a kit, with a good blend between top sounds and shell/room sound. I also really like your hi hats. They are very powerful but not overpowering anything or getting too bright. It's good to hear some of the scumbum sound.
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Post by Guitar on Apr 15, 2017 19:26:01 GMT -6
I love recording drums. I don't feel particularly GOOD at any of this producing/recording/mixing stuff but I absolutely love recording drums. Here's a bunch of info and details so the small, low-budget, "nothing" studio example is also represented. My view is from the bottom of the industry in a "can't get bands to even pay me $150 per song tracked/mixed/mastered" studio. Heil PR40 inside kick AT 4040 outside kick Beta 57 Snare top 57 snare bottom Sennheiser 604 rack & floor tom top Cascade FatHeads spaced pair Overheads (basically over the outside rim of the floor tom and outside edge of the hihat-side crash) SM7B Middle Overhead directly over snare Apex 205 (with thinner ribbon) in the hall outside my room Pair of AKG Perception 400 in figure 8 near the floor basically under the overheads then a little further away with the nulls pointing towards the nearest tom and snare as "room" mics My Pearl Export kit with Ludwig SuperSensitive snare 7X14, Evans G1 heads (EQ2 on the kick batter), and Zildjian Avedis cymbals. I only know all this stuff because a lot of it is still set up. My room is 14-ish feet wide, 20-ish feet long, and 7.5 feet high. I have a lot of absorption (all Roxul Saf-n-Sound or AFB panels framed in 1 by X frames wrapped in muslin) including a 7-foot by 6-foot by 3-inch-thick cloud overhead, a 4-foot by 4-foot by 6-inch-thich panel directly behind the kit, and some 6-foot by 4-foot by 2-inch-thick panels standing to the sides of the kit. I also think I'm altering the balances a fair bit in the "with plugins" sample including a whole lot more room mics (so, heads-up with that). The "with plugins" sample doesn't include my parallel stuff because I didn't include it with the "no plugins" sample - I use the parallels for some extra grit, transients for the close mics, and some length for the whole kit. It's a tom groove into a crashed ride cymbal beat. Sounds in the room with conservative EQ on some mics and light compression on the Perception 400 room mics: drive.google.com/open?id=0Bzugr8cD5X_MXzFZTkx5YXQyOUESame channels with plugins (no samples): drive.google.com/open?id=0Bzugr8cD5X_MNlRGdnpiVGFUYkkI give you all this information so we can talk about the overheads in a low-ceiling space like mine. I love this overhead setup. I almost always do this three-overhead thing. Wide spaced pair plus a middle overhead mic - everything measured equidistant from the snare. I can rely on the spaced pair for a little more high end. I can rely on the middle for more meat. This time, I used ribbons on the spaced pair but sometimes the spaced pair is SDCs and the middle overhead is that Apex 205. None of this would be possible without the big-ass panel directly overhead. Recording in this room without that panel (and the others, really) is a mess. Anyone have thoughts, concerns, or criticisms? I'd love to hear 'em! Like I said above, I don't really know what I'm doing - but I'm trying' like hell to figure it out! You have got some nice punchy drums going on there, I like it a lot. I guess I preferred the less processed mix. I suppose in developing my taste for drum sounds, I am starting to prefer the ones that are not as obviously compressed or distorted, so that is why I would pick the first clip you posted. Something in between the two might be quite nice. Maybe some more parallel mixing of the sounds. I also really liked your playing on those clips, very tight and consistent hits. I notice several people are placing their overheads quite high above the kit. I suppose this is something I would have to treat the ceiling for, especially with figure of eight mics, so that is something I will have to invest in. I do like that sound though, it just gives some size to the picture. Vertical and with the depth front to back. I love recording drums too! It's keeping me closely interested in the craft.
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Post by swurveman on Apr 16, 2017 7:53:48 GMT -6
Congratz Dan to the infinite but certainly the most fun, drum recording Have done some drum recordings through the years and one thing I've learned, no drum recording is the same. Could be the same genre, but a completely different tempo that allows you mix and use the mic different. So you are almost never "home safe" and that's the fun part with drum recording. Regarding your question, I use close mic when it is more pop / rock for more meat in the sound. Usually I have 3 snare mic. 2 on top and 1 below snare. I angled done them much. For when I want to have close mic up, it's meat I am looking for and that I get the best with the steep angle (Can post a picture from yesterday's record so you can see how I did. Little special recording where I took away all the cymbals,haha). Regarding OH I had for a long time XY, but for the past 6-7 years, I have chosen spaced pair plus a mono mic in the middle (just above the head). Besides that, I have two Coles just behind me (little back), which picks up the body of the entire drum kit. Then I have all the freedom to choose what I want in the mix. After moving back and forth to get the mics in the right phase, so now is the prohibition to move them from the "sweet spot". Hey drumrec. I checked out your site. Great sounding videos. Well done! What are the mics (GA R1's?) and what is the purpose/methodology of positioning the mics with the pop filters in this photo from your pop drums video? Also, I don't see the Coles or the AKG's (I think that's what you use for high OH's) in the video. Are they there, but positioned higher? Great pop and rock drum sound!
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Post by drumrec on Apr 16, 2017 14:30:54 GMT -6
Congratz Dan to the infinite but certainly the most fun, drum recording Have done some drum recordings through the years and one thing I've learned, no drum recording is the same. Could be the same genre, but a completely different tempo that allows you mix and use the mic different. So you are almost never "home safe" and that's the fun part with drum recording. Regarding your question, I use close mic when it is more pop / rock for more meat in the sound. Usually I have 3 snare mic. 2 on top and 1 below snare. I angled done them much. For when I want to have close mic up, it's meat I am looking for and that I get the best with the steep angle (Can post a picture from yesterday's record so you can see how I did. Little special recording where I took away all the cymbals,haha). Regarding OH I had for a long time XY, but for the past 6-7 years, I have chosen spaced pair plus a mono mic in the middle (just above the head). Besides that, I have two Coles just behind me (little back), which picks up the body of the entire drum kit. Then I have all the freedom to choose what I want in the mix. After moving back and forth to get the mics in the right phase, so now is the prohibition to move them from the "sweet spot". Hey drumrec. I checked out your site. Great sounding videos. Well done! What are the mics (GA R1's?) and what is the purpose/methodology of positioning the mics with the pop filters in this photo from your pop drums video? Also, I don't see the Coles or the AKG's (I think that's what you use for high OH's) in the video. Are they there, but positioned higher? Great pop and rock drum sound! Hi Frank and thanks for the nice words! Those videos are almost 10 years old and I have a new bigger studio now and a lot has happened in those 10 years. It's just one video of the new studio on my site, this one:
Have not had time to update my website. Have thought several times that I should delete all the videos and make a brand new website. But there has been so much the past few years, so there has not been time to do it. It is absolutely right that there is GA R1 ribbon mic. Why I had "pop filter" was that they said they were so sensitive and I did not know better at the time and took the safe way, ha ha! It has happened a lot of knowledge and become a lot of new gears the 10 last years Will have time to make a new homepage in the autumn. Now I built studios (on the side of the drum recordings) for the past 4 years. Build a studio complex here in Stockholm on 20+ studios that I rent out to songwriters and producers. But soon all will be ready and I can be the drummer on a full-time again....looooonging 4 it Cheers /HÃ¥kan
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 16, 2017 14:48:28 GMT -6
I love recording drums. I don't feel particularly GOOD at any of this producing/recording/mixing stuff but I absolutely love recording drums. Here's a bunch of info and details so the small, low-budget, "nothing" studio example is also represented. My view is from the bottom of the industry in a "can't get bands to even pay me $150 per song tracked/mixed/mastered" studio. Heil PR40 inside kick AT 4040 outside kick Beta 57 Snare top 57 snare bottom Sennheiser 604 rack & floor tom top Cascade FatHeads spaced pair Overheads (basically over the outside rim of the floor tom and outside edge of the hihat-side crash) SM7B Middle Overhead directly over snare Apex 205 (with thinner ribbon) in the hall outside my room Pair of AKG Perception 400 in figure 8 near the floor basically under the overheads then a little further away with the nulls pointing towards the nearest tom and snare as "room" mics My Pearl Export kit with Ludwig SuperSensitive snare 7X14, Evans G1 heads (EQ2 on the kick batter), and Zildjian Avedis cymbals. I only know all this stuff because a lot of it is still set up. My room is 14-ish feet wide, 20-ish feet long, and 7.5 feet high. I have a lot of absorption (all Roxul Saf-n-Sound or AFB panels framed in 1 by X frames wrapped in muslin) including a 7-foot by 6-foot by 3-inch-thick cloud overhead, a 4-foot by 4-foot by 6-inch-thich panel directly behind the kit, and some 6-foot by 4-foot by 2-inch-thick panels standing to the sides of the kit. I also think I'm altering the balances a fair bit in the "with plugins" sample including a whole lot more room mics (so, heads-up with that). The "with plugins" sample doesn't include my parallel stuff because I didn't include it with the "no plugins" sample - I use the parallels for some extra grit, transients for the close mics, and some length for the whole kit. It's a tom groove into a crashed ride cymbal beat. Sounds in the room with conservative EQ on some mics and light compression on the Perception 400 room mics: drive.google.com/open?id=0Bzugr8cD5X_MXzFZTkx5YXQyOUESame channels with plugins (no samples): drive.google.com/open?id=0Bzugr8cD5X_MNlRGdnpiVGFUYkkI give you all this information so we can talk about the overheads in a low-ceiling space like mine. I love this overhead setup. I almost always do this three-overhead thing. Wide spaced pair plus a middle overhead mic - everything measured equidistant from the snare. I can rely on the spaced pair for a little more high end. I can rely on the middle for more meat. This time, I used ribbons on the spaced pair but sometimes the spaced pair is SDCs and the middle overhead is that Apex 205. None of this would be possible without the big-ass panel directly overhead. Recording in this room without that panel (and the others, really) is a mess. Anyone have thoughts, concerns, or criticisms? I'd love to hear 'em! Like I said above, I don't really know what I'm doing - but I'm trying' like hell to figure it out! Phase interference/comb filtering much?
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 16, 2017 15:47:04 GMT -6
All the mics point the same direction so everything is in phase . HUH? Where did that cockamamie idea come from? "Phase" has nothing to do with the direction the mic is pointing. None. Phase cancellation/comb filtering/interference is a function of the DISTANCE BETWEEN THE DIAPHRAGMS OF THE MICS. Not only that, it's a function of the distance between each individual mic and every other mic on the kit. The more mics you add, the more the problems multiply logarithmically. You can set up a mic with a great sound in solo and have the tone turn to utter crap when other mics are added in because of this. Where the way a mic is pointing become important ia the matter of OFF AXIS FREQUENCY RESPONSE. Very few directional microphones have response off axis (from the sides and rear) that matches the response on-axis. In fact, this is one of the maijor differences between a high quality, expensive mic and other mics because it is fiendishly difficult to engineer a cardioid mic with even off-axis response. There are a number of very popular mics that have fairly horrible off-axis response, such as the Sennheiser 421 and nearly every Shure SM5X and Beta series dynamic mic in existance. The off axis response proble might give some people the impression that the direction the mic is poinhting has something to do with phase cancellation but that's not it. The off axis problem exists even when only one mic is in use, it's not a phase problem. I don't use a hi-hat mic anymore. The only thing that a hat mic adds is phase problems with the other mics, most notably the snare. Furthermore, it's totally unneccessary - the hi hat is so loud that hat leakage is frequently a problem into other mics, and you do get phase problems from it; additionally phase problems with the snare mics make the snare sound funny. Instead I use a snare mic that has unusually smooth, even off axis response, virtually the same response and tone quality that the mic produces on axis. That mic is the Neumann KM84*. Positioned correctly, the KM84 will give you a natural, balanced snare sound with no need for seperate top and bottom mics (which cause major phase cancellation problems) and as an added bonus a great, natural hi-hat sound - all off ONE MIC with no phase problems. * - NOT the KM184.
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Post by jazznoise on Apr 16, 2017 16:10:54 GMT -6
Sometimes a hi-hat mic can be good for adding definition to the attack of the hats, which can be an issue if you're using a lot of ambiance or the early reflections aren't great. KM84's are great, but most of us work with all sorts and some drummers would make you nervous putting up an M201. I'd sell my rig and I probably wouldn't have a pair of KM84s..maybe some Coles though. At any rate, you can dismiss ideas with facts and evidence just fine and there's no need for the all caps. It actually takes away from some of your better points.
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Post by schmalzy on Apr 16, 2017 16:44:50 GMT -6
I love recording drums. I don't feel particularly GOOD at any of this producing/recording/mixing stuff but I absolutely love recording drums. Here's a bunch of info and details so the small, low-budget, "nothing" studio example is also represented. My view is from the bottom of the industry in a "can't get bands to even pay me $150 per song tracked/mixed/mastered" studio. Anyone have thoughts, concerns, or criticisms? I'd love to hear 'em! Like I said above, I don't really know what I'm doing - but I'm trying' like hell to figure it out! Phase interference/comb filtering much? I don't doubt there's some phase and comb filtering problems. Like I said, I'm new in this game and I'm hoping to continue getting better. I live in the middle of nowhere with no pros around so I don't have much in way of education, guidance, or mentorship (the ways most of the engineers in the previous generations of engineers learned to do everything). I have to rely on the kindness and generosity of strangers on the internet for guidance. Many people are willing to help because they know what it was like to struggle to learn things on their own. I was going to reply to your comment with something snarky. I'm sure you'd agree your comment presented very little in the realm of helpful or useful content and added nearly nothing to the conversation. It seemed more aimed at making a person you don't know who is trying to learn to do something that you know how to do feel bad about themselves and their work. But, I also don't know if that was your intention. Text is not great for communicating tone - especially in such brief comments. I'd love to pick your brain and try to get better at all of this stuff if you'd be willing to have a discussion. What specifically are you hearing when you say you hear phase interference/comb filtering in the samples I provided? Frequency ringing from stuff stacking up? Maybe some frequencies being oddly notched out? Those are the sorts of things I hear when I notice phase problems. Are you hearing it in both the processed and unprocessed samples? I ask because (if I remember correctly) I had an M/S processor on one of the buses adding a db to the sides. As I was going back to the mix of those samples and looking for the phase problems, the M/S processor was the only thing that changed the phase correlation meter much. I do have a lot of mics up and live in both samples - I don't doubt the possibility you're hearing those problems. It's likely there are some phase problems just based on the number of mics alone. Is there anything else you could add/suggest I do to improve my future drum recordings? I mostly work in hard rock, punk, and metal genres which often require a lot of mics to capture all the details in the performances as the drummers of varying skill and experience play technically challenging parts. Some of my favorite drums sounds I've captured have been just a few mics but that's just not a reality in the genres I typically work in. Thanks for any help or information you can lend!
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Post by scumbum on Apr 16, 2017 21:02:18 GMT -6
You just gotta learn how to tune really well to get a good drum sound . I've battled drum tuning for awhile , but finally now have gotten a good tuning method for my drums . I recommend this DVD "Drum Tuning: Sound and Design...Simplified" by Bob Gatzen . www.ebay.com/itm/Drum-Tuning-Sound-and-Design-Simplified-DVD-2004-Bob-Gatzen-/272624993806?_trksid=p2385738.m2548.l4275I've found if the drum is tuned good the extra ringing can sound good . But when the drum is slightly tuned bad the ringing is horrible . I'm working on a new drum sound . Instead of using Overheads , put a pair in XY in front of the kit and then close mic . I tried it yesterday and I like it . All the mics point the same direction so everything is in phase . Heres an example , This is SCRATCH.....I'm writing a new song so I have a bunch of scratch tracks and still fine tuning all parts . So its sloppy . But the drums are 4 mics , XY pair in front of kit and close mics on kick and snare . No tom mics . Will probably add Tom and Hi-Hat mics . Hi-Hats are 15" zildjian cymbals . www.dropbox.com/s/jhbbekh5yfwmug9/He%27s%20The%20Smun%20-%20Scratch%202.wav?dl=0I've been checking out a few Bob Gatzen videos, good stuff. He seems to understand the ring and resonance at a pretty primal level. I heard that Sylvia Massey likes to place all her drum mics in the same direction, did you take any instruction from her? It's something I haven't tried yet. But sounds appealing. This is one of the less conventional approaches that I have been very curious about. I like your drum sound. I never would have thought to put the XY pair out front, but why not? I think any kind of stereo pair out front can probably get a good full sound out of a kit, with a good blend between top sounds and shell/room sound. I also really like your hi hats. They are very powerful but not overpowering anything or getting too bright. It's good to hear some of the scumbum sound. gaz Bob Gatzen has a youtube channel . I've asked him questions over there and hes really cool . I don't know if it was Sylvia Massey , but I remember reading a Tape Op interview with someone doing it . All the mics point the same direction towards the drums . If you zoom in everything is going the same direction and in phase , you don't have to flip the phase on any mic . You can hear the difference too , sounds smoother , clearer . I think placing overheads came from needing isolation from other band members being in the same room together . Overheads help isolate the drums . But it kinda makes more sense to put the mics how the audience hears the drums in real life , standing in front of the drums . I don't know , its a new thing for me and I'm liking it so far . Being a fan of the Ramones and doing some of their songs I noticed they always , even Marky up to when they retired , never had two heads on his toms . He took the bottom head off and stuck a mic in there . For one thing playing fast on the floor tom with one head is a lot easier because the stick doesn't bounce as much . And with a mic in the tom you can get all the BOOM low end you want . Another thing is tuning one head is 100X easier than tuning two heads . So I use one head on my toms and kick . Easier to play , tune and micing it inside gets a great tom sound . I also use a Korg $20 tuner with a bulit in mic to tune my drums . Find the place/notes they sound best , then use the tuner to always quickly dial in the drums . I used to do it by ear but was always fooled thinking everything was good then on play back theres that nasty ringing because they went slightly out of tune . Between takes I can do a quick check with the tuner and know the drums are all dialed in to where they should be . I got the 15" Hi-Hats because Dave Grohl used them in Nirvana and I think Dave used them because Bonham used them . So we all copy each other .
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Post by terryrocks on Apr 16, 2017 21:13:33 GMT -6
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 17, 2017 0:47:15 GMT -6
I don't doubt there's some phase and comb filtering problems. Like I said, I'm new in this game and I'm hoping to continue getting better. I live in the middle of nowhere with no pros around so I don't have much in way of education, guidance, or mentorship (the ways most of the engineers in the previous generations of engineers learned to do everything). I have to rely on the kindness and generosity of strangers on the internet for guidance. Many people are willing to help because they know what it was like to struggle to learn things on their own. I was going to reply to your comment with something snarky. I'm sure you'd agree your comment presented very little in the realm of helpful or useful content and added nearly nothing to the conversation. Well, actually, it did, but I guess you missed it. It was intended to make you think. The biggest problem with micing drums (with the possible exception of tuning them) is that the more mics you use, the worse problems you get with comb filtering caused by phase cancellation between mics. The common response of the inexperienced person - which is greatly exacerbated by much of the "wisdom" you get on the innerwebz - is to add even more mics which only makes the problem worse. My comment, brief and laconical as it may be, was in response to the fact that it looked to me like you're slapping mics on everything in reach, the more the "better", and if you have any left over you start double micing things. That ain't the way to go if you're interested in learning how to record great (or even good) drum sounds - which is one reason that sample replacement of drum sounds has become so popular in some circles. Just as an example, let's consider John Bonham. Bonham's sound is regarded as something of a "holy grail" in certain hard rock circles, and he did not use a particularly small kit. How many mics were used on the kit for those recordings? Three. Three mics, and the kit sounds HUGE. Some of that is, of course, the room, but equally important is the lack of phase cancellation from excessive numbers of microphones. I'm not going to go int a lot of detail right now, as I've already touched on a lot of things pertaining to this in previous posts in this thread. I'm just going to leave you with this (for now, anyway)\: with each additional mic you add to the kit you problems with cvomb filtering due to phase cancellation increase logarithmically, as each mic interacts with every other mic, singly and together as a whole. And one other thing - a drum kit is a single instrument, not a collection of disparate things. And a last bit of advice - don't waste your money on cheap mics - one great mic will get you more than twice the dollar value in "budget" ones. (Which is not to say that all inexpensive mics are bad, just most of them.)
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 17, 2017 1:01:08 GMT -6
Not really. Phase is a lot more complicated than polarity - it's not strictly "in" or "out", it's a rotation around 360 degrees of a circle. a 180 deg. rotation is functionally the same as flipped polarity (not really, because that ignores the time factor, but for most intents and purposes), but 90 deg out of phase is equal to a rotation 1/4 of the way around the circle. Where this becomes important is when you consider the harmonics of a musical waveform - some get reinforced, some get cancelled, which wrecks havoc with the tone, and can also cause other strange artifacts. This is also the same thing that causes problems with room modes ("standing waves") in acoustics. It would be a lot easier to demonstrate this with an oscilloscope to display the waveforms.
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Post by schmalzy on Apr 17, 2017 1:54:59 GMT -6
I don't doubt there's some phase and comb filtering problems. Like I said, I'm new in this game and I'm hoping to continue getting better. I live in the middle of nowhere with no pros around so I don't have much in way of education, guidance, or mentorship (the ways most of the engineers in the previous generations of engineers learned to do everything). I have to rely on the kindness and generosity of strangers on the internet for guidance. Many people are willing to help because they know what it was like to struggle to learn things on their own. I was going to reply to your comment with something snarky. I'm sure you'd agree your comment presented very little in the realm of helpful or useful content and added nearly nothing to the conversation. Well, actually, it did, but I guess you missed it. It was intended to make you think. I was already thinking about phase problems. I appreciate you trying to get me to think about them further, though. Maybe it would have been more helpful if you said "the number of mics you have makes me worried you're experiencing a lot of phase problems and comb filtering. In fact, I hear it in [this]." Phrasing, context, and tone is important in communication via text. And, just so you're aware, the mics weren't just thrown up randomly and haphazardly - there was a lot of thought put behind the selections and the mics were listened to and moved to try to reduce phase problems. Each mic had a very specific purpose and was chosen in its position with thought put into the polar pattern and the mic's frequency response. Examples: SM7B over the snare drum because I knew I could get the meat of the drums out of that overhead and, if I wanted to, I could rely on that middle overhead for impact in the event I needed to high-pass the wide spaced pair to clean up the low end. Fig-8 ribbons were chosen for the spaced pair because of their tight polar pattern (they were pointed straight down and 3 inches of Roxul with four inches of space between the Roxul and the ceiling were above them to try to reduce the effect of the ceiling as much as possible). The far room was 25 feet away in a reflective area to get the kick ambience I normally miss (which often results in my kick sounding very disconnected from the kit). The stereo near room mics were used to fill in some trashy frequencies the project/genre was calling for and were used specifically for a couple distorted sections of songs - though less-distorted versions of them stayed in the mix the whole time. Other than those mics - which all had a specific purpose - we're looking at fairly standard close mic techniques. I had 10 more mics and 6 more inputs if I wanted to keep going. I didn't. I possibly could have added a close mic on the ride. There was a ride section of a song that wasn't coming through but adding a mic there made the snare phasey and weird. Moving that mic made the ride cymbal sound weird in the overheads. I got rid of that mic and asked the drummer to pull back on the crashes a little and lay into the ride a little more. Do you hear anything you could specifically point out as audible comb filtering? Perhaps you're suggesting that I could be but you're not hearing anything specifically? Some of my favorite drum sounds I've gotten in my space were when I put up just a couple drum mics during songwriting sessions. One I really liked was the AT4040 48" over the snare with a Fathead about top-of-the-kick-drum high out in front of the kit angled slightly downward at the kick with both mics equidistant to the snare. Cool sounds for sure. Only useable for certain things, though. Bonham's sound wouldn't stand up in a modern punk mix. I also want you to know I'm not intentionally being difficult. I'm just trying to find what you're hearing as the actual problems and, using the task I'm trying to accomplish as the backdrop, solve those problems. So far, I've gotten some best practices (that I agree with already) and some assumptions (as fair as they might have been in other cases but not necessarily in this one) but they aren't really applicable in my situation. My ears apparently aren't developed enough to hear the phase problems you're hearing. I'd love to know what you're hearing specifically to make you say I have some phase problems/comb filtering. Thanks for the help you've offered thus far. I'd love to know what you're hearing so maybe I could learn to hear the phase problems you're hearing.
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Post by schmalzy on Apr 17, 2017 2:36:20 GMT -6
Man, I didn't want to hijack this thread away from the discussion of overheads...but here we are, I guess. Sorry Guitar! When I've needed more natural-sounding kits, I've gone with an X/Y overhead. It never sounds THAT wide but everything sounds like it belongs together. Depending on your room you might have ambience problems because you're essentially pointing the most sensitive spot of the mic away from the kit. My space is small so pointing mics away from the drums doesn't do me any favors. I've moved gobos in to cut down on the room reflections a lot when I've gone with an X/Y setup. Also, adjusting the height of the x/y gave me more or less focus on the drums. It makes sense. It also puts my mics right in range of a guy flailing about with sticks. When I've been happiest with X/Y, I was using SDCs - their off-axis sound isn't as garbage-y as some LDCs I've used. Ribbon mics were cool and their off-axis sound wasn't bad but their narrow-ish polar pattern has left me with weak hole in the middle of the stereo field on a couple occasions. When I've gone that route (or ORTF over drums with any mics) I tend to find a good spot to stick a mono near room mic to fill in the center of the image left out by the overheads. That mic has bailed me out a number of times. An idea I've yet to pull the trigger on (too much stuff happening lately) is a mono overhead with a few cymbal spot mics around the kit. Basically, a spot mic isolating the groups of cymbals as much as possible - maybe even underheads - just the same way I'm mic'ing individual shells. The spot mics get the clarity and the attack, the mono overhead (along with the rooms) get you the picture to tie it all together. I'd mix the overhead and the room first and add in the spots to get the attack/punch/etc. as needed. I'd get the stereo spread from the close mics on everything (and probably stereo room mics) but I'd be hopefully getting less bleed in each mic and possibly avoiding phase problems that way.
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Post by jazznoise on Apr 17, 2017 7:03:02 GMT -6
I personally don't get the idea of a mono + stereo overhead. If AB isn't providing a strong enough center image, you have your mics too wide. Changing the distance or trying a different stereo array (ORTF can be great, blumlein is wide when up close). The idea of an AB pair, to me, is to deliberately create a hole in the center so as to make space for other instruments (keyboards or mono ac. guitar would be particular examples that come to mind). I don't think that "phase issues" will be the singular issue, usually when people are referring to phasing they're actually just talking about the cumulative timbre changes caused by different microphones. In the real world very little of the audio fully correlates, but that's not the same thing as phasing. They may be entirely different reflections.
I know I'm one to talk on mic economy, but conceptually I'm coming from the position of doing 4+ songs in a session so I need some options. I'm not putting up any mics I don't think I'll specifically need for something.
My advice for ribbon mics in spaced pair is to place them parallel-ish to the floor. You really need the body of them to pick up the whole kit, and angling mics can be a hazard anyway if you're not used to how that will often emphasize the top end of the cymbals. If you like the sound of where you have them placed, moving them up higher will change the width of the kit. There may be more or less ambiance, but in my experience it's not a huge issues.
To give a proper critique: it's not a bad sound. It does have a midrange buildup ~500Hz and you hear it a lot when it goes down to mono, but I reckon just pulling that out of the ribbon overheads will probably take care of that as it's an issue I'd have with my own. The toms ring a lot at their fundamental, but that's down to what you'd want in the context of a mix. I think you're using a lot of the tom mics? I'd be curious if you need to use that much, they can often exaggerate the ring in toms because of their proximity effect.
I'm not particularly hearing what the SM7b is doing, but if it's darkening the sound I'd mute it or use it as an effect sound (key it off the snare mic and apply a slap to it or something).
The cymbals are a little flat sounding, but a short bright plate could fix that (or you could add a pair of room mics). Even a 10Khz shelf - just watch the hi hat.
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Post by schmalzy on Apr 17, 2017 8:35:03 GMT -6
I personally don't get the idea of a mono + stereo overhead. If AB isn't providing a strong enough center image, you have your mics too wide. Changing the distance or trying a different stereo array (ORTF can be great, blumlein is wide when up close). The idea of an AB pair, to me, is to deliberately create a hole in the center so as to make space for other instruments (keyboards or mono ac. guitar would be particular examples that come to mind). I don't think that "phase issues" will be the singular issue, usually when people are referring to phasing they're actually just talking about the cumulative timbre changes caused by different microphones. In the real world very little of the audio fully correlates, but that's not the same thing as phasing. They may be entirely different reflections. I know I'm one to talk on mic economy, but conceptually I'm coming from the position of doing 4+ songs in a session so I need some options. I'm not putting up any mics I don't think I'll specifically need for something. My advice for ribbon mics in spaced pair is to place them parallel-ish to the floor. You really need the body of them to pick up the whole kit, and angling mics can be a hazard anyway if you're not used to how that will often emphasize the top end of the cymbals. If you like the sound of where you have them placed, moving them up higher will change the width of the kit. There may be more or less ambiance, but in my experience it's not a huge issues. To give a proper critique: it's not a bad sound. It does have a midrange buildup ~500Hz and you hear it a lot when it goes down to mono, but I reckon just pulling that out of the ribbon overheads will probably take care of that as it's an issue I'd have with my own. The toms ring a lot at their fundamental, but that's down to what you'd want in the context of a mix. I think you're using a lot of the tom mics? I'd be curious if you need to use that much, they can often exaggerate the ring in toms because of their proximity effect. I'm not particularly hearing what the SM7b is doing, but if it's darkening the sound I'd mute it or use it as an effect sound (key it off the snare mic and apply a slap to it or something). The cymbals are a little flat sounding, but a short bright plate could fix that (or you could add a pair of room mics). Even a 10Khz shelf - just watch the hi hat. Thanks for the writeup! I agree with you on most of your assertions. Too much 500-1k is definitely an issue. The toms are pretty loud because they didn't on this mix go through any of the parallel stuff - I use a kit parallel (with no toms) and a kick and snare parallel - so they've got to overcome that volume issue. I didn't add the parallel stuff in because it wasn't really an apples-to-apples comparison when compared to the non-processed. Talking about the overheads, I use the three overhead thing for exactly the same reason you said you wouldn't: there's a big hole if I'm using tighter polar patterns in the spaced pair. I want to rely on the overheads as much as possible; get the overall sound then punch it up with the direct mics. In practice, of course, it's not always as simple as that. My overhead ribbons were parallel to the floor and they seemed to be leaving too large a hole in the middle. My room isn't great so moving the mics away from the kit to adjust the width isn't always giving me enough benefit vs the cost. That middle overhead helps fill it in and gives me an out in case I need to use the ribbons to accentuate cymbals but still want to rely on mics that aren't 2 inches off the drums. This isn't quite what I'm doing but I stumbled across this not too long ago. It's a three-mic overhead technique that I also thought was not going to sound great until I tried it. I'm not a huge fan of this particular video presenter's work but the technique is someone else's (Brian McTear from Miner Street Recordings) and they gave him the thumbs-up to put it together: My hat-side overhead is quite a bit wider than that (on the outside of that hat-side crash cymbal) and I'm not pointing the spaced pair mics back at the snare but my thought process shares some similarity with the Miner Street guys' on the reason for the three mics. Thanks again for the comments and the critiques!
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Post by terryrocks on Apr 17, 2017 9:36:08 GMT -6
Not really. Phase is a lot more complicated than polarity - it's not strictly "in" or "out", it's a rotation around 360 degrees of a circle. a 180 deg. rotation is functionally the same as flipped polarity (not really, because that ignores the time factor, but for most intents and purposes), but 90 deg out of phase is equal to a rotation 1/4 of the way around the circle. Where this becomes important is when you consider the harmonics of a musical waveform - some get reinforced, some get cancelled, which wrecks havoc with the tone, and can also cause other strange artifacts. This is also the same thing that causes problems with room modes ("standing waves") in acoustics. It would be a lot easier to demonstrate this with an oscilloscope to display the waveforms. I know they are not the same thing. I'm saying when recording engineers use the term 'flip the phase' as in push the button on the preamp, aren't we really inverting polarity? it just so happens my day job is physics and math teaching and tutoring. I work a lot with sinusoid algebra and calculus and their graphs on amplitude vs time
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Post by jazznoise on Apr 17, 2017 11:18:25 GMT -6
I'm not hearing your room, so I'm not really in a place to speak, but I'd really try backing off the stereo overheads and removing any HF dampening if that's why I'm hearing no reflections (else I'd assume you're extremely close to the kit). Point them slightly at the snare if you're not getting enough of it. I typically have my overheads 4 feet from the snare, but upto 5 or 6 for certain applications and I don't find it very roomy. Critical distance is something you'll only determine in a space through observation. Again with the nulls facing the walls and a tall ceiling you won't have too much of an issue with near wall reflections.
I think my best advice would be to forget the parallels and the auxs and stuff and just focus on getting the sound as close to what you want on the record is and not relying on mix tricks to augment the sound.
EDIT: Watched the Weathervane video. The guy's understanding of phase is great, but his understanding of the kit isn't. The toms are much louder so equidistant spacing from snare and the toms is not necessarily desirable. I liked the mono mic, I'd have probably added a side mic to that if I wanted it wider and needed that perspective of the kit.
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 17, 2017 15:31:40 GMT -6
Not really. Phase is a lot more complicated than polarity - it's not strictly "in" or "out", it's a rotation around 360 degrees of a circle. a 180 deg. rotation is functionally the same as flipped polarity (not really, because that ignores the time factor, but for most intents and purposes), but 90 deg out of phase is equal to a rotation 1/4 of the way around the circle. Where this becomes important is when you consider the harmonics of a musical waveform - some get reinforced, some get cancelled, which wrecks havoc with the tone, and can also cause other strange artifacts. This is also the same thing that causes problems with room modes ("standing waves") in acoustics. It would be a lot easier to demonstrate this with an oscilloscope to display the waveforms. I know they are not the same thing. I'm saying when recording engineers use the term 'flip the phase' as in push the button on the preamp, aren't we really inverting polarity? it just so happens my day job is physics and math teaching and tutoring. I work a lot with sinusoid algebra and calculus and their graphs on amplitude vs time Yes, that's what they're doing. Sometimes (usually the most simple) it works, for example when using top and bottom snare mics you have to change polarity on one of them, for obvious reasons. Other times you might just be trading one set of problems for another. Each time you add a mic to the kit you should check it against every other kit mic for problems, as manifested by tonal changes in either or both mics. Often simply flipping polarity isn't really useful, you have to move the mic - but that changes the relationships with all the other mics, so moving mic "C" might make mic "A" sound better but make "B" sound worse. It's all a big, complicated set of compromises which becomes more difficult to solve with every additional mic added. So how much time and effort do you want to spend working out relationships between mics?
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Post by Guitar on Apr 17, 2017 18:57:10 GMT -6
Here are some 48 kHz FLAC files from today. Hopefully you have some way of playing those back, or converting them. I probably should have made them .wavs
app.box.com/s/hs4jt3h4lvr8hod5bc4kriof5p4imdu5I decided not to add any processing, just to give the most raw material possible. A lot of mistakes or enhancements can be made in the mix that are very specific, so here's just what it sounds like coming off the mics, with "POLARITY"**** adjustments only. Let's not get too pedantic. There's enough of that in the world I'd like to keep this thread on topic and respectful. Also my subkick was clipping, so I low passed it heavily. Preamp gain has since been adjusted. And my ribbon outside of kick had a blown ribbon, so I heavily low passed that mic and left it in. I tried muting the mic, but the kick just sounded too weak and distant. Some time in the next week I will put a fresh ribbon in that mic. Still not sure how I blew it. Could have been 48 Volts, or maybe put it too close to the kick without an angle or a windscreen, not sure, need to make sure that doesn't happen again. Luckily it was my most inexpensive ribbon mic, and was due for an upgrade, anyway. If you focus on the snare sound in the last file, "ghost groove," you can hear this high pitched whine coming off the snare drum. It's in the close mics and the room mics. I am still not sure how to fix it. Gating the toms will help, and the snare as well, but then there's still some ring in the room and overhead mics. This might get buried in the track, but I'm not sure. The top head of the Gretsch Taylor Hawkins snare has had several (four) moongel dampers applied, as well as having a pretty heavy top head. It's a weird problem that I am still dealing with. It seems to be related both to the snare drum and the toms around it. Dampening the top heads helps a lot but does not totally eliminate the ring. The hi tom only needed two gel pieces, more than that kills it. The floor tom needed a full four, and I'm pretty happy with how they sound now. I guess I found the sweet spot for these drums and heads. Listening in the room seems to be the way to go. Anything that happens there, will most likely be represented in the recording window. This part feels like progress for me. The worst part, of course, feels like the playing. But I am playing longer, more precise, and trying new techniques every day, so I feel optimistic about myself behind the drums. I am excited for every opportunity to improve, and I am eager to learn. I put in a good two hours today, and I intend to make this a weekly habit. I also am pretty sure I want to move forward with some slight acoustic treatments above and behind the kit, as time and budget permits. Anyway, thanks for being a part of this discussion, and I am looking forward to hearing any sort of feedback on my raw, day after Easter drum sound.
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Post by svart on Apr 18, 2017 12:10:05 GMT -6
Maybe it's just me, but when I listen to so many tests and placement tracks/videos, things just always sound so muffled and dead to me. People talk about "big" drums, but I hear stuff that sounds boxy and muffled. I've posted this tune before, but here it is again, of what I think of when I think big drums. www.theopiumdenproductions.com/WGD2016/rest.mp3Snare: Black magic, CS dot head, half moongel on the Remo logo, I5 2"up/even with rim on top, PG57 bottom, 312 pres, 1176 on mixdown, +6dB 10K, -3 to -6dB 300hz. Kick: Yamaha Recording Custom 22x18, EMAD, D6 inside, Subkick outside, 312 pres, +6dB 10K, -6dB 150Hz, inside and outside mic levels adjusted to taste. Toms: Yamaha Recording Custom, Remo pinstripes, half moongel on Remo logo, AT25 4" up/2" in, 312 pres, EQ to cut resonance on each drum. OH: Sabian HHX and AAX, Gefell M930 in wide ORTF, 2-3ft above highest cymbals (generally pointing at hats and ride), into 1272 pres. Cut 300Hz, Cut 5KHz. All are fed to either SSL bus compressor or 2254/33609 (can't remember which one on this track). Hard hitting drummer too. Can't get big sounds from drummers who can't hit.
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Post by scumbum on Apr 18, 2017 14:37:18 GMT -6
Here are some 48 kHz FLAC files from today. Hopefully you have some way of playing those back, or converting them. I probably should have made them .wavs
app.box.com/s/hs4jt3h4lvr8hod5bc4kriof5p4imdu5I decided not to add any processing, just to give the most raw material possible. A lot of mistakes or enhancements can be made in the mix that are very specific, so here's just what it sounds like coming off the mics, with "POLARITY"**** adjustments only. Let's not get too pedantic. There's enough of that in the world I'd like to keep this thread on topic and respectful. Also my subkick was clipping, so I low passed it heavily. Preamp gain has since been adjusted. And my ribbon outside of kick had a blown ribbon, so I heavily low passed that mic and left it in. I tried muting the mic, but the kick just sounded too weak and distant. Some time in the next week I will put a fresh ribbon in that mic. Still not sure how I blew it. Could have been 48 Volts, or maybe put it too close to the kick without an angle or a windscreen, not sure, need to make sure that doesn't happen again. Luckily it was my most inexpensive ribbon mic, and was due for an upgrade, anyway. If you focus on the snare sound in the last file, "ghost groove," you can hear this high pitched whine coming off the snare drum. It's in the close mics and the room mics. I am still not sure how to fix it. Gating the toms will help, and the snare as well, but then there's still some ring in the room and overhead mics. This might get buried in the track, but I'm not sure. The top head of the Gretsch Taylor Hawkins snare has had several (four) moongel dampers applied, as well as having a pretty heavy top head. It's a weird problem that I am still dealing with. It seems to be related both to the snare drum and the toms around it. Dampening the top heads helps a lot but does not totally eliminate the ring. The hi tom only needed two gel pieces, more than that kills it. The floor tom needed a full four, and I'm pretty happy with how they sound now. I guess I found the sweet spot for these drums and heads. Listening in the room seems to be the way to go. Anything that happens there, will most likely be represented in the recording window. This part feels like progress for me. The worst part, of course, feels like the playing. But I am playing longer, more precise, and trying new techniques every day, so I feel optimistic about myself behind the drums. I am excited for every opportunity to improve, and I am eager to learn. I put in a good two hours today, and I intend to make this a weekly habit. I also am pretty sure I want to move forward with some slight acoustic treatments above and behind the kit, as time and budget permits. Anyway, thanks for being a part of this discussion, and I am looking forward to hearing any sort of feedback on my raw, day after Easter drum sound. I think your drums sound really good !! Floor tom might be a little tiny bit flat , a little tweak could probably dial it in perfect . Damn floor tom . Thats the drum I always battle keeping in tune . So easily it goes out a tad and you get some weird ringing . Its all personal preference but the Hi-Hat might be too bright or thin sounding . You mentioned that and I kinda agree . The kit sounds pretty vintage and the Hi-Hat sounds modern . Maybe get thicker 14" Hi-Hats or go with the 15" . It sounds very 70's . Would make a great early punk recording . Kinda sounds like Trex .
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Post by Guitar on Apr 18, 2017 16:02:26 GMT -6
I uploaded three new clips to my folder just now, after I re-ribboned my MXL R80 mic today. That mic sounds amazing now. The kick is sounding huger than ever, haha. First clip is just the ribbon and beater on kick, second clip adds in the subkick, gets really overbearing subterranean, third clip is showing what the Kush Omega A transformer does to the sound. Just some goop on things plus some crispness. I am really on the fence about processing right now since I'm getting these cleaner sounds lately. app.box.com/s/hs4jt3h4lvr8hod5bc4kriof5p4imdu5
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Post by Guitar on Apr 18, 2017 16:09:20 GMT -6
I think your drums sound really good !! Floor tom might be a little tiny bit flat , a little tweak could probably dial it in perfect . Damn floor tom . Thats the drum I always battle keeping in tune . So easily it goes out a tad and you get some weird ringing . Its all personal preference but the Hi-Hat might be too bright or thin sounding . You mentioned that and I kinda agree . The kit sounds pretty vintage and the Hi-Hat sounds modern . Maybe get thicker 14" Hi-Hats or go with the 15" . It sounds very 70's . Would make a great early punk recording . Kinda sounds like Trex . Wow thanks scumbum. I love T Rex, he is a huge early influence for me. Always have loved the drums on those records. Glad you agree about the hats. I will have to try something else soon. Either 13" like jcoutu1 said, or some 15" or both. Floor tom is a struggle for me also. Maybe it's my cheap Export tom, maybe it's that I have never changed the bottom head, maybe I'm not hitting it hard enough. Certainly that drum can use some work. I have always thought that too, playing this kit. I'm also considering putting a hole in my kick. The beater flutters a little on impact, and I'm getting kind of tired of that. A hole in the front head would relieve some of the internal pressure coming back from the beater's impact. For some reason, of all things, you can hear this very clearly when soloing the subkick channel. At first I thought my subkick was acting weird, until I realized it was the drum itself.
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Post by Guitar on Apr 18, 2017 16:20:10 GMT -6
Maybe it's just me, but when I listen to so many tests and placement tracks/videos, things just always sound so muffled and dead to me. People talk about "big" drums, but I hear stuff that sounds boxy and muffled. I've posted this tune before, but here it is again, of what I think of when I think big drums. www.theopiumdenproductions.com/WGD2016/rest.mp3Snare: Black magic, CS dot head, half moongel on the Remo logo, I5 2"up/even with rim on top, PG57 bottom, 312 pres, 1176 on mixdown, +6dB 10K, -3 to -6dB 300hz. Kick: Yamaha Recording Custom 22x18, EMAD, D6 inside, Subkick outside, 312 pres, +6dB 10K, -6dB 150Hz, inside and outside mic levels adjusted to taste. Toms: Yamaha Recording Custom, Remo pinstripes, half moongel on Remo logo, AT25 4" up/2" in, 312 pres, EQ to cut resonance on each drum. OH: Sabian HHX and AAX, Gefell M930 in wide ORTF, 2-3ft above highest cymbals (generally pointing at hats and ride), into 1272 pres. Cut 300Hz, Cut 5KHz. All are fed to either SSL bus compressor or 2254/33609 (can't remember which one on this track). Hard hitting drummer too. Can't get big sounds from drummers who can't hit. Wow, those drums are really cutting through. You are lucky to be recording bands like that, it's good. It has also come to my attention that the Yamaha Recording Custom drums are extremely well made and top quality instruments. They really stand out on their own. I agree with you about general drum sounds. A lot of stuff does end up sounding kind of muddled or indistinct. I guess that's sort of the vintage way of things a bit maybe also. But when I hear drums these days that stand up tall and clear, that's when my ear really perks up. I have been surprised how much difference in tone I'm getting with each little tweak I've been doing lately. It does remind me a bit of cooking in that way.
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