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Post by johneppstein on Apr 9, 2017 23:47:29 GMT -6
I've got 32 preamps in my Soundcraft console but I hardly use them anymore. Got pres in my Midas console but I don't record with them. We pretty much do all the tracking through the 4412s. Why not? The only reason I can think of to use a different pre would be if what I had available was inferior. That's why I got the 4412s to use instead of the IC based Soundcrap pres. Carl came by, loaned me one for a couple of months, I was convinced it was better than what I had, bought it. When I could afford a second, I bought that too, which gives me enough channels for most basic tracking sessions that we do. Condescending? I don't think I'm "condescending". I certainly don't intend to be. However I see lots of people using different this and different that and then jumping through hoops with long processing chains trying to get things to "gel". Why not simply go back to the way things were done when all those great records were made? If it ain't broke, don't fix it! Needless complication is just a big pain in the tuchus. The simplest way is nearly always the best way. I don't thing thats "condescention" I think that's common sense. What I REALLY want is an API console, but I can't afford one. If I won the lotterey and bought an API, I'd likely be willing to sell the 4412s. But he's not talking about trying to find some particular flavor of fad-y pre. Jesse needs more pres and so he's evaluating what's out there within his budget. You responded with comments about "all this BS about different mic pres". Regular old suggestion/advice is what's warranted, not a rant about some perceived Issue With Modern Engineers that doesn't have anything to do with his question. Point taken. But why not just grab a few more of what he's got then? It's not so much an "issue with 'modern' engineers" thing. To me, anyway, it's an "issues with modern marketing" thing.
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Post by ragan on Apr 10, 2017 0:01:54 GMT -6
But he's not talking about trying to find some particular flavor of fad-y pre. Jesse needs more pres and so he's evaluating what's out there within his budget. You responded with comments about "all this BS about different mic pres". Regular old suggestion/advice is what's warranted, not a rant about some perceived Issue With Modern Engineers that doesn't have anything to do with his question. Point taken. But why not just grab a few more of what he's got then? It's not so much an "issue with 'modern' engineers" thing. To me, anyway, it's an "issues with modern marketing" thing. I guess I just don't see what there is to have an issue with in this case. If he needs a handful of new pres, seems like he should just see what his options are and pick something. There's a lot of daylight between "What magic flavour of pre will make me sound vintage and amazing!!??" and "I've got these bases covered and I need a few more channels, what should I look at?"
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 10, 2017 0:23:41 GMT -6
Point taken. But why not just grab a few more of what he's got then? It's not so much an "issue with 'modern' engineers" thing. To me, anyway, it's an "issues with modern marketing" thing. I guess I just don't see what there is to have an issue with in this case. If he needs a handful of new pres, seems like he should just see what his options are and pick something. There's a lot of daylight between "What magic flavour of pre will make me sound vintage and amazing!!??" and "I've got these bases covered and I need a few more channels, what should I look at?" Yeah. I dunno - it's just that a good mic pre should work on anything. I don't really get this "bases covered" thing with mic pres. Mics, sure, hell yeah! But mic pres? Yeah, there are differences between various pres, but any good pre should be fine for anything. They're not guitar amps, y'know. I feel old....
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Post by ragan on Apr 10, 2017 0:33:42 GMT -6
I guess I just don't see what there is to have an issue with in this case. If he needs a handful of new pres, seems like he should just see what his options are and pick something. There's a lot of daylight between "What magic flavour of pre will make me sound vintage and amazing!!??" and "I've got these bases covered and I need a few more channels, what should I look at?" Yeah. I dunno - it's just that a good mic pre should work on anything. I don't really get this "bases covered" thing with mic pres. Mics, sure, hell yeah! But mic pres? Yeah, there are differences between various pres, but any good pre should be fine for anything. They're not guitar amps, y'know. I feel old.... Yeah, any good pre is good for anything. I'm with you on that generality. But Jesse can't buy "any good pre". He has to pick a specific piece of gear. He should get the one that best suits his needs and his budget. Seems dead simple to me.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Apr 10, 2017 2:34:58 GMT -6
Point taken. But why not just grab a few more of what he's got then? Budget. If I could afford 24 channels of BAE at $2200/pair for a mobile rig, I'd be all over it. Or an API console, sure, sign me up. In the initial post I mentioned how I'm looking at these multichannel value preamps, like the ISA 828, which gives me 8 of the exact same preamp (which should be music to your ears) at about $200/channel. At the same time, there are a bunch of people out there that give the ISA a lot of flack. I'm trying to figure out if the ISA preamps would be a significant step up from buying another soundcrap (or similar) console of if there are better multichannel preamp options.
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 10, 2017 5:16:40 GMT -6
Yeah. I dunno - it's just that a good mic pre should work on anything. I don't really get this "bases covered" thing with mic pres. Mics, sure, hell yeah! But mic pres? Yeah, there are differences between various pres, but any good pre should be fine for anything. They're not guitar amps, y'know. I feel old.... Yeah, any good pre is good for anything. I'm with you on that generality. But Jesse can't buy "any good pre". He has to pick a specific piece of gear. He should get the one that best suits his needs and his budget. Seems dead simple to me. Well, yes, I totally agree. The obvious thing to do is get as many more of whatever he's using to make a set sufficient for his needs, unless there's something wrong with what he's already got I don't see why there should be any question about what to get. As you said, dead simple.
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Post by kcatthedog on Apr 10, 2017 5:42:54 GMT -6
I haven't been following this, so apologies, if this has been discussed, but I am about 3 months into using the wa-412 ( vox, acoustic and electric guitars,bass (di) and drums), and having a very positive experience. I sold my apollo so no longer have its on board pres/unison and while I have two dizengoff d4's, have not been using them.
It has an impedance button which basically gives you two very different sound per pre.
If, I regularly needed 8 pres, I would certainly think about another.
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 10, 2017 5:56:31 GMT -6
Point taken. But why not just grab a few more of what he's got then? Budget. If I could afford 24 channels of BAE at $2200/pair for a mobile rig, I'd be all over it. Or an API console, sure, sign me up. In the initial post I mentioned how I'm looking at these multichannel value preamps, like the ISA 828, which gives me 8 of the exact same preamp (which should be music to your ears) at about $200/channel. At the same time, there are a bunch of people out there that give the ISA a lot of flack. I'm trying to figure out if the ISA preamps would be a significant step up from buying another soundcrap (or similar) console of if there are better multichannel preamp options. DAMMIT, THE COMPUTER ATE MY POST! Let me try and recap...... I think I understand your problem now - what you have now is unfortunately too expensive for you to be able to afford to get as many as you'd need for the kind of rig you need for the kind of projects you're looking to be doing. OUCH! How many channels do you need total, and what's your budget? (This next is probably going to be a bit truncated over the original, it's late and I've already typed it once.......) To make a long story short, What I'd probably do is use my Midas Venice 28 channel (32 input, 4 stereo channels) for remote recording, at least until I could build up my stock of better pres. I was involved in a 2 day mini-festival that got made into a documentary and the movie sound was taken off the subs and mains from the Venice at FOH (plus a stereo pair at the back of the room) to an 8 channel PT rig and the audio turned out fine. If the film people had had more recording channels I would have given them direct outs from the channels. I might elaborate a bit in the morning (or not), it's late and I'm about ready for bed..... EDIT: I don't have all that high an opinion of Focusrite's budget stuff......
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Post by Tbone81 on Apr 10, 2017 10:02:00 GMT -6
Point taken. But why not just grab a few more of what he's got then? Budget. If I could afford 24 channels of BAE at $2200/pair for a mobile rig, I'd be all over it. Or an API console, sure, sign me up. In the initial post I mentioned how I'm looking at these multichannel value preamps, like the ISA 828, which gives me 8 of the exact same preamp (which should be music to your ears) at about $200/channel. At the same time, there are a bunch of people out there that give the ISA a lot of flack. I'm trying to figure out if the ISA preamps would be a significant step up from buying another soundcrap (or similar) console of if there are better multichannel preamp options. Having used the ISA line I'd say you're better served with the Audient ASP 800/880's. IMHO, Theyre both on the same level sonically, clean/detailed/low noise, but the Audient is smaller, cheaper, and produces less heat. I think some people slam the ISA line because apparently the original ISA 110's sounded better. I've been told they were more colored,I think they used different transformers. This is all second hand so take it with a grain of salt. I've never heard the original ISA 110's myself. However, if you go that route I'm sure you'll be happy, they're quality pieces. Now is clean, transparent, detailed etc what you're going for? Some more colored pres have already been mentioned (Warm, Daking, sebatron, etc). Since there are so many good options I'd personally make the choice based on size/weight, and price.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,961
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Post by ericn on Apr 10, 2017 11:16:54 GMT -6
It's a bit out of your range but Soundpure has a Demo Vintech 473 for $2650. Might be worth the extra !
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Post by jcoutu1 on Apr 10, 2017 13:13:14 GMT -6
Budget. If I could afford 24 channels of BAE at $2200/pair for a mobile rig, I'd be all over it. Or an API console, sure, sign me up. In the initial post I mentioned how I'm looking at these multichannel value preamps, like the ISA 828, which gives me 8 of the exact same preamp (which should be music to your ears) at about $200/channel. At the same time, there are a bunch of people out there that give the ISA a lot of flack. I'm trying to figure out if the ISA preamps would be a significant step up from buying another soundcrap (or similar) console of if there are better multichannel preamp options. Having used the ISA line I'd say you're better served with the Audient ASP 800/880's. IMHO, Theyre both on the same level sonically, clean/detailed/low noise, but the Audient is smaller, cheaper, and produces less heat. I think some people slam the ISA line because apparently the original ISA 110's sounded better. I've been told they were more colored,I think they used different transformers. This is all second hand so take it with a grain of salt. I've never heard the original ISA 110's myself. However, if you go that route I'm sure you'll be happy, they're quality pieces. Now is clean, transparent, detailed etc what you're going for? Some more colored pres have already been mentioned (Warm, Daking, sebatron, etc). Since there are so many good options I'd personally make the choice based on size/weight, and price. If the Audient was bidirectional, I'd be sold. If I go for something with conversion, I'm more likely to go with the new Focusrite Clarett. At $700, it's got 8 preamps, inserts for every channel, and AD/DA built in. I didn't like the sound of my old Scarlett interface, but these converters spec out much better and would provide needed outputs for the MOTU. I hesitate with converter/preamps though because in a couple years, it'll be a doorstop rather than a useful preamp like a standalone pre will be.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Apr 10, 2017 13:13:50 GMT -6
It's a bit out of your range but Soundpure has a Demo Vintech 473 for $2650. Might be worth the extra ! Price is high. Usually go about $2k used I think.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,961
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Post by ericn on Apr 10, 2017 13:36:01 GMT -6
It's a bit out of your range but Soundpure has a Demo Vintech 473 for $2650. Might be worth the extra ! Price is high. Usually go about $2k used I think. Wasn't sure just got the email and thought hell that would be perfect.
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Post by veggieryan on Apr 10, 2017 15:54:46 GMT -6
Check out NPNG if you want 4 channels of "desert island" preamps for not too much more. Karl is very helpful and the reviews of his preamps speak for themselves. Truly high end. www.npngproducts.com/
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Post by jcoutu1 on Apr 10, 2017 16:10:33 GMT -6
Check out NPNG if you want 4 channels of "desert island" preamps for not too much more. Karl is very helpful and the reviews of his preamps speak for themselves. Truly high end. www.npngproducts.com/$4100? Way over budget. I'm looking for economic channels for a travel rig. I've heard good things about them though.
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Post by veggieryan on Apr 10, 2017 16:29:09 GMT -6
Check out NPNG if you want 4 channels of "desert island" preamps for not too much more. Karl is very helpful and the reviews of his preamps speak for themselves. Truly high end. www.npngproducts.com/$4100? Way over budget. I'm looking for economic channels for a travel rig. I've heard good things about them though. I didn't see a budget in the original post. They come up used for around 2500-2900 if you look hard. No brainer at that price. Karl is a genius who will talk your ear off. For a budget portable, I recommend Aphex 1788A... sleeper with Jensen transformers. Cheap, big clean tone and light weight.
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Post by wiz on Apr 10, 2017 16:31:53 GMT -6
DIY JLM preamps... BA4?
cheers
Wiz
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 10, 2017 16:34:18 GMT -6
I'd get either the Warm 412 or the Audient 880. They're both new, but maybe If you can find some demos of them online, that night help you choose.
Size and space comes into play here when making decisions. I bet with some patience you could find a 16 or 24 channel board that sounds as good as all these preamp suggestions that isn't much more expensive.
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Post by mulmany on Apr 10, 2017 17:03:24 GMT -6
Shinybox si4? I have the 500 version....great pre. Very quiet with gain for days. $1400 - $350 per channel.
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Post by javamad on Apr 11, 2017 0:45:26 GMT -6
The Focusrite 428 Mark 1 is the best bang for the buck out there. But make sure it's a Mark 1 Interesting. I see them for sale from time to time. Do you know what they changed in the Mk II that made it sound worse? There is a MK 1 on sale locally to me right now for around €1100 which seems a little expensive to me for that brand but I understand that back then they were trying to leverage the heritage of the big Focusrite console from Air Montserrat. Maybe my impressions of the brand are skewed by the lo-cost current product line?
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Post by jcoutu1 on Apr 11, 2017 1:01:00 GMT -6
The Focusrite 428 Mark 1 is the best bang for the buck out there. But make sure it's a Mark 1 Interesting. I see them for sale from time to time. Do you know what they changed in the Mk II that made it sound worse? There is a MK 1 on sale locally to me right now for around €1100 which seems a little expensive to me for that brand but I understand that back then they were trying to leverage the heritage of the big Focusrite console from Air Montserrat. Maybe my impressions of the brand are skewed by the lo-cost current product line? FWIW... support.focusrite.com/hc/en-gb/articles/207547405-What-has-changed-from-the-ISA-428-to-the-ISA-428-MkII-
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Post by Ward on Apr 11, 2017 6:27:52 GMT -6
Interesting. I see them for sale from time to time. Do you know what they changed in the Mk II that made it sound worse? There is a MK 1 on sale locally to me right now for around €1100 which seems a little expensive to me for that brand but I understand that back then they were trying to leverage the heritage of the big Focusrite console from Air Montserrat. Maybe my impressions of the brand are skewed by the lo-cost current product line? FWIW... support.focusrite.com/hc/en-gb/articles/207547405-What-has-changed-from-the-ISA-428-to-the-ISA-428-MkII-Thanks Focusrite Marketing Department! :-) What else changed: They outsourced parts and production. Like someone said in the WA14 thread, you can clone something and even have the exact same specs on everything but it may not sound the same. And this is the case here.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Apr 11, 2017 6:55:44 GMT -6
Thanks Focusrite Marketing Department! :-) What else changed: They outsourced parts and production. Like someone said in the WA14 thread, you can clone something and even have the exact same specs on everything but it may not sound the same. And this is the case here. I think the fact that it has a different power supply and removed the limiter is pretty significant though. Were all the first generation Made in England?
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Post by WKG on Apr 11, 2017 7:40:09 GMT -6
The circuit board & components are the same as are the Lundahl transformers. The biggest change is the switch mode power supply which cuts down heat. The Mark I apparently had a habit of occasionally toasting due to heat. FWIW the 828 apparently used the switch mode power supply from it's inception, when the Mark I was still being produced, I haven't heard any critiques regarding that.
I have the 428 Mark II and use it a lot, the soft limiters and the meters would be nice though.
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Post by Ward on Apr 11, 2017 8:49:19 GMT -6
I think the fact that it has a different power supply and removed the limiter is pretty significant though. Yes, you can hear the difference. The 428 Mark 1 gives me a satisfying 'console' sound to any source recorded. Yes they were. There are minor squabbles about different transformers here and there, but overall a solid product. I've never had mine catch fire as WKG points out, but I have a friend who had that happen. He then had a 3 channel preamp.
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