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Post by Vincent R. on Mar 28, 2017 12:00:22 GMT -6
My goal for my studio has always been to have enough quality microphones and preamps to rent a space and record a full orchestra. Not a necessarily a 70 piece, but a good 20-30 piece. I've based a lot of my planning on a great article about how orchestral recording is done at Abby Road. For some reason I can't find the article, but I'll post it once I do.
I have collected a lot of the microphones I wanted for spot mics, or have enough good ones to make a really nice recording. There are a few things I need though. What I'm lookin at in this post is an additional ribbon microphone for brass. I currently own an Altec 639a in great condition and recently reribboned by AEA. What I'm currently looking at and trying to decide between is the Coles 4038, AEA R84, and possibly a Royer 121. I may even grab a Peluso R14 for good measure since it's a little more affordable, but it's those three I'm looking at. It would be used for brass and horns. I'd love to hear people's experiences with those mics in that context. Recommendations are also welcome, but I'm really looking to stay in the $1000 price range. Don't get me wrong, I'd love the AEA R44C. I just don't have the budget for that right now.
Of course, I could just use my MK U67, CM67le, and CM49....., but anyway I'm looking at ribbons.
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Post by c0rtland on Mar 28, 2017 12:10:46 GMT -6
I think any of those three ribbons will put a smile on your face.
And I'm convinced the st1n is gonna be it for me instead of the aea44. Plus you can get two for the price of one. Stager will be getting my money very soon. But don't get me wrong. I think at this point in the conversation between the stated ribbons we are talking about incremental differences that amount to luxury not necessity.
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Post by drbill on Mar 28, 2017 13:48:09 GMT -6
All nice ribbons you mentioned, but I wouldn't put my money there. My #1 for Tpt (and other brass) - and this was found after after dozens and dozens of sessions - is the MJoly modded 205. It's beat out 67's, 47's, 87's, Dynamics, ribbons and all other form of mics in what I'd consider a pretty large mic closet. Huge sounding, not pinched, not dark, open on top, and yet mellow and not like fingernails on a metal chalkboard. My desert island ribbon. And best of all, you can get a pair for your price. Killer on pianos as well, and most other brass, although I do tend to favor 87's on Tbones, and often RCA's on saxes if I'm looking for a more vintage and less modern big band sound.
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 28, 2017 15:00:30 GMT -6
My goal for my studio has always been to have enough quality microphones and preamps to rent a space and record a full orchestra. Not a necessarily a 70 piece, but a good 20-30 piece. That would be about 3, right? KM84s, Schoeps, even u47s. And 3 Latch Lake stands. tapeop.com/interviews/90/wilma-cozart-fine-c-robert-fine/ |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Mar 28, 2017 17:32:18 GMT -6
Coles are such a great mic , AEA a darker take, but take a listen to the Beyers and if you can Beyers modded by Steven Sank.
Real 77's are not in the collectors strAtosphere yet.
Don't forget the Fostex for something different.
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Post by Vincent R. on Mar 28, 2017 17:37:03 GMT -6
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Mar 28, 2017 18:16:25 GMT -6
As much as I appreciate Faulkner, I will always be a Fan of the Fines simpler approach. I grew up listening to the Sound of Leroy Anderson Vol 1 & 2. oh how the Audiophiles cringed as they thought of a 5 year old abusing the treasured grooves of those Superdiscs. 3 M49s direct to film, the basis of my sonic career, most forgave me for what it rought! |
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Post by Pueblo Audio on Mar 28, 2017 18:53:08 GMT -6
As much as I appreciate Faulkner, I will always be a Fan of the Fines simpler approach. I grew up listening to the Sound of Leroy Anderson Vol 1 & 2. oh how the Audiophiles cringed as they thought of a 5 year old abusing the treasured grooves of those Superdiscs. 3 M49s direct to film, the basis of my sonic career, most forgave me for what it rought! A few years back, Classic Records reissued the Everest catalog. These where 3-track 35mm mag master reels. Bernie mastered directly from 35mm to lacquer while I simultaneously mastered to 2496 multichannel. There was a diagram on the original vinyl jackets illustrating how "bigger was better!" ;-) Back on topic - 4038 are favored for many duties., AEA 44 is fantastic. But both would seem outside the budget indicated? |
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Post by Vincent R. on Mar 28, 2017 19:19:21 GMT -6
As much as I appreciate Faulkner, I will always be a Fan of the Fines simpler approach. I grew up listening to the Sound of Leroy Anderson Vol 1 & 2. oh how the Audiophiles cringed as they thought of a 5 year old abusing the treasured grooves of those Superdiscs. 3 M49s direct to film, the basis of my sonic career, most forgave me for what it rought! A few years back, Classic Records reissued the Everest catalog. These where 3-track 35mm mag master reels. Bernie mastered directly from 35mm to lacquer while I simultaneously mastered to 2496 multichannel. There was a diagram on the original vinyl jackets illustrating how "bigger was better!" ;-) Back on topic - 4038 are favored for many duties., AEA 44 is fantastic. But both would seem outside the budget indicated? The AEA 44 is out of my budget, unfortunately. The Coles is just a little above it, which is why it's still on my list and frankly in the lead. I always seem to love it in shoot outs next to other ribbons. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Mar 28, 2017 19:39:10 GMT -6
As much as I appreciate Faulkner, I will always be a Fan of the Fines simpler approach. I grew up listening to the Sound of Leroy Anderson Vol 1 & 2. oh how the Audiophiles cringed as they thought of a 5 year old abusing the treasured grooves of those Superdiscs. 3 M49s direct to film, the basis of my sonic career, most forgave me for what it rought! A few years back, Classic Records reissued the Everest catalog. These where 3-track 35mm mag master reels. Bernie mastered directly from 35mm to lacquer while I simultaneously mastered to 2496 multichannel. There was a diagram on the original vinyl jackets illustrating how "bigger was better!" ;-) Back on topic - 4038 are favored for many duties., AEA 44 is fantastic. But both would seem outside the budget indicated? Some people get to have all the fun! There was something magic about the sound of film. |
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 28, 2017 21:11:42 GMT -6
They mean The Devolution of Orchestral Recording. (We are not men, we are DEVO!) The more mics you use the more problems you get with phase interference and the less natural the sound. And the bigger a PITA it is to get a reasonable final result. That's OK for a pop recording (I guess), but it's not appropriate for a classical recording. And that website are a bunch of nosy bastards harvesting personal information, which I find deeply offensive, especially for an alleged educational institution. I did download the paper, but the process left a very bad taste in my mouth. |
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Post by Vincent R. on Mar 29, 2017 23:01:50 GMT -6
johneppstein, I assume you're talking about a decca tree configuration when you say 3 mics for the orchestra. If not, please let me know what you're referring to. This is all a learning curve for me, so I'm open to listen. What do you think about a stereo ribbon, like an SF12 of aea R88 as a center microphone for the orchestra? Just curious. I know a very good classical music engineer who does this. I was considering following suit after working with him and hearing his work.
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Post by reddirt on Mar 30, 2017 0:09:48 GMT -6
Don't discount DR Bill"s modded Apex 205 suggestion; there was a GS thread where he had piano takes he'd done with them and they were terrific; I bought one on the strength of that and it's a winner. Also love it on clarinet, clean lead or front of Kit etc.
Vincent you may well find your overall mics pick up enough of the brass but the Apex would be a cheap b/up in case and useable in other endeavours as well.
Cheers, Ross
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 30, 2017 2:20:40 GMT -6
johneppstein , I assume you're talking about a decca tree configuration when you say 3 mics for the orchestra. If not, please let me know what you're referring to. This is all a learning curve for me, so I'm open to listen. What do you think about a stereo ribbon, like an SF12 of aea R88 as a center microphone for the orchestra? Just curious. I know a very good classical music engineer who does this. I was considering following suit after working with him and hearing his work. Actually I wasn't but that's an excellent technique as well. Did you read the article on the Fine technique that I linked to? The thing is, an orchestra is an ensemble, in essence one big instrument composed of many smaller pieces. In a way, you could regard it kinda like a solo piano - while the stereo spead is nice ear candy, you want to preserve the sense of cohesion of the whole. That's why I'm not so big on spot micing everything. One main featured soloist, sure, maybe, in moderation, (but probably not) but on everything? Would you put individual mics on each little group of strings of a piano? (no, it's not a perfect analogy, but you get the idea...) When I was younger I was all mic crazy - put mics on everything! Put mics on the mics! Oh, I've got one left over, where oh where can I stick it? (No, I don't think there would be a good idea....) Yes, I'm exaggerating a bit, but you get the idea. As I do this stuff longer I've come more and more around to the idea that the the fewer mics you can get away with, the better it's likely to sound, assuming that you have good musicians who know how to play together as a unit - an orchestra being a prime example. Consequently I've come to study the techniques of the '50s and early to mid '60s. The idea is that you get set up to get the best possible record of the event in the best and simplest way possible, then you push record and stay out of the way. You're not going to mix it except in the most rudimentary manner of balancing the side mics to enhance the center - that's the conductor's job, balancing the instruments, not yours. |
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Post by jeremygillespie on Mar 30, 2017 6:15:45 GMT -6
johneppstein , I assume you're talking about a decca tree configuration when you say 3 mics for the orchestra. If not, please let me know what you're referring to. This is all a learning curve for me, so I'm open to listen. What do you think about a stereo ribbon, like an SF12 of aea R88 as a center microphone for the orchestra? Just curious. I know a very good classical music engineer who does this. I was considering following suit after working with him and hearing his work. Actually I wasn't but that's an excellent technique as well. Did you read the article on the Fine technique that I linked to? The thing is, an orchestra is an ensemble, in essence one big instrument composed of many smaller pieces. In a way, you could regard it kinda like a solo piano - while the stereo spead is nice ear candy, you want to preserve the sense of cohesion of the whole. That's why I'm not so big on spot micing everything. One main featured soloist, sure, maybe, in moderation, (but probably not) but on everything? Would you put individual mics on each little group of strings of a piano? (no, it's not a perfect analogy, but you get the idea...) When I was younger I was all mic crazy - put mics on everything! Put mics on the mics! Oh, I've got one left over, where oh where can I stick it? (No, I don't think there would be a good idea....) Yes, I'm exaggerating a bit, but you get the idea. As I do this stuff longer I've come more and more around to the idea that the the fewer mics you can get away with, the better it's likely to sound, assuming that you have good musicians who know how to play together as a unit - an orchestra being a prime example. Consequently I've come to study the techniques of the '50s and early to mid '60s. The idea is that you get set up to get the best possible record of the event in the best and simplest way possible, then you push record and stay out of the way. You're not going to mix it except in the most rudimentary manner of balancing the side mics to enhance the center - that's the conductor's job, balancing the instruments, not yours. I agree with this to a certain extent. That all makes sense and is all well and good in a perfect situation. But, we all know that there aren't really perfect situations anymore. The room can have weird nodes, a player may be hung over, the conductor may be hung over, a mic can die in the middle of a take, if you're in a huge room and have long runs you can get interference and noise on certain channels. All sorts of crap can leak into a perfect situation if you're not prepared, and if something does indeed go wrong with a decca tree or however you'd set up, you'd be left holding your dick ( pardon the language) while everybody stares at you wondering why that take isn't going to work. If I have a backup mic and available inputs, I record them - period. I was listening to an interview with Ryan Freeland (who I think makes the absolute BEST sounding records these days) and he was talking about how If he is engineering, there will never be a technical reason as to why the perfect take won't wind up on a record. Made a lot of sense to me and I've tried to copy that idea ever since. I'm not saying come mix time that Id use every mic that I've recorded, actually Id say half get tossed out. Hard drive space is cheap. I use it to my advantage. |
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Post by Vincent R. on Mar 30, 2017 6:18:37 GMT -6
johneppstein, the article ended at the 3 mic technique unless you bought it. For $2 I figured why not. I just read through it. Very interesting and simple technique. The article I had posted talks about building everything around the Decca Tree mics. The spot mics are only there to provide a little more detail as needed which is why only one is needed per section (although in the large set up they show a good number of mics on the upperstrings, the breakdown provide in the article is much simpler). So while there are multiple microphones, the mixing is still done around those three main mics. However, this is all theory to me, because I've never done it. I'm just planning for it. What's great about the Mercury approach is that I could through my CM49 (advanced audio's take on the M49) as a center microphone and stereo pair of something for the side mics and just go to work. Meanwhile no one makes an affordable M50 style mic, so making a traditional Decca tree is expensive. The goal for me is to be able to record my own orchestra for my albums. Being a Mario Lanza/Sergio Franchi styled Italian-American Crossover singer, and having very little budget, I've often had to utilize digital orchestrations or prerecorded orchestral tracks. I just don't want to do that any more.
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Post by EmRR on Mar 30, 2017 8:17:24 GMT -6
Samar has some good samples of stereo ambient recording of classical music, check them if you haven't. They work well as spot mics too. Most linear ribbons I own or have used. Somewhere I have samples I need to break out of my Samar in an ambient pickup position in a vertical array with a Royer SF12 and an AEA R84, mainly drums but various rock band bleed in a fairly large high ceiling studio space.
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Post by svart on Mar 30, 2017 8:28:19 GMT -6
Micing a large distance from brass, I wouldn't use a ribbon. You'll get such a low output and lack of detail. Since ribbons are inherently figure 8, you'll also pick up a lot of the out-of-phase late reflections in the room, unless your room is huge or heavily treated.
I'd stick with orchestra-proven KM84's or Gefell M300, or Schoeps mics and very clean, low-noise preamps (you'll still need a lot of gain..)
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Post by Ward on Mar 30, 2017 8:57:26 GMT -6
Micing a large distance from brass, I wouldn't use a ribbon. You'll get such a low output and lack of detail. Since ribbons are inherently figure 8, you'll also pick up a lot of the out-of-phase late reflections in the room, unless your room is huge or heavily treated. I'd stick with orchestra-proven KM84's or Gefell M300, or Schoeps mics and very clean, low-noise preamps (you'll still need a lot of gain..) Yeah but Schoeps mics sound like a mouthful of marbles. And it's like they have little robot helpers that go out looking for the worst part of the room to amplify and bring them back to home base to occupy as much sonic real estate as possible. The CMIT5U and CMC6 in particular. But these are just my findings, and I'm entitled to be wrong, and you're entitled to have a different opinion!! |
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Post by svart on Mar 30, 2017 9:57:52 GMT -6
Micing a large distance from brass, I wouldn't use a ribbon. You'll get such a low output and lack of detail. Since ribbons are inherently figure 8, you'll also pick up a lot of the out-of-phase late reflections in the room, unless your room is huge or heavily treated. I'd stick with orchestra-proven KM84's or Gefell M300, or Schoeps mics and very clean, low-noise preamps (you'll still need a lot of gain..) Yeah but Schoeps mics sound like a mouthful of marbles. And it's like they have little robot helpers that go out looking for the worst part of the room to amplify and bring them back to home base to occupy as much sonic real estate as possible. The CMIT5U and CMC6 in particular. But these are just my findings, and I'm entitled to be wrong, and you're entitled to have a different opinion!! That's cool. I just know that a lot of orchestral recording engineers have sworn by the brand for decades. I don't know which models specifically though. |
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 30, 2017 10:42:27 GMT -6
johneppstein , the article ended at the 3 mic technique unless you bought it. For $2 I figured why not. I just read through it. Very interesting and simple technique. The article I had posted talks about building everything around the Decca Tree mics. The spot mics are only there to provide a little more detail as needed which is why only one is needed per section (although in the large set up they show a good number of mics on the upperstrings, the breakdown provide in the article is much simpler). So while there are multiple microphones, the mixing is still done around those three main mics. However, this is all theory to me, because I've never done it. I'm just planning for it. What's great about the Mercury approach is that I could through my CM49 (advanced audio's take on the M49) as a center microphone and stereo pair of something for the side mics and just go to work. Meanwhile no one makes an affordable M50 style mic, so making a traditional Decca tree is expensive. The goal for me is to be able to record my own orchestra for my albums. Being a Mario Lanza/Sergio Franchi styled Italian-American Crossover singer, and having very little budget, I've often had to utilize digital orchestrations or prerecorded orchestral tracks. I just don't want to do that any more. Bought it? It's a TAPE-OP article - you don't have a Tape-Op subscription? It's FREE in the USA and I'm pretty sure that the on-line only sub is free everywhere, although I'm not absolutely certain of the latter as I don't live everywhere. |
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Post by jayfitz on Mar 30, 2017 10:51:37 GMT -6
Doesn't look like anyone has mentioned them yet, but you could get a pair of the Stager SR-2N's for $1000. Killer ribbons, priced waaayyy below their value. Check them out for sure. We can't keep them in stock... |
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 30, 2017 11:19:24 GMT -6
Actually I wasn't but that's an excellent technique as well. Did you read the article on the Fine technique that I linked to? The thing is, an orchestra is an ensemble, in essence one big instrument composed of many smaller pieces. In a way, you could regard it kinda like a solo piano - while the stereo spead is nice ear candy, you want to preserve the sense of cohesion of the whole. That's why I'm not so big on spot micing everything. One main featured soloist, sure, maybe, in moderation, (but probably not) but on everything? Would you put individual mics on each little group of strings of a piano? (no, it's not a perfect analogy, but you get the idea...) When I was younger I was all mic crazy - put mics on everything! Put mics on the mics! Oh, I've got one left over, where oh where can I stick it? (No, I don't think there would be a good idea....) Yes, I'm exaggerating a bit, but you get the idea. As I do this stuff longer I've come more and more around to the idea that the the fewer mics you can get away with, the better it's likely to sound, assuming that you have good musicians who know how to play together as a unit - an orchestra being a prime example. Consequently I've come to study the techniques of the '50s and early to mid '60s. The idea is that you get set up to get the best possible record of the event in the best and simplest way possible, then you push record and stay out of the way. You're not going to mix it except in the most rudimentary manner of balancing the side mics to enhance the center - that's the conductor's job, balancing the instruments, not yours. I agree with this to a certain extent. That all makes sense and is all well and good in a perfect situation. But, we all know that there aren't really perfect situations anymore. The room can have weird nodes, a player may be hung over, the conductor may be hung over, a mic can die in the middle of a take, if you're in a huge room and have long runs you can get interference and noise on certain channels. All sorts of crap can leak into a perfect situation if you're not prepared, and if something does indeed go wrong with a decca tree or however you'd set up, you'd be left holding your dick ( pardon the language) while everybody stares at you wondering why that take isn't going to work. If I have a backup mic and available inputs, I record them - period. I was listening to an interview with Ryan Freeland (who I think makes the absolute BEST sounding records these days) and he was talking about how If he is engineering, there will never be a technical reason as to why the perfect take won't wind up on a record. Made a lot of sense to me and I've tried to copy that idea ever since. I'm not saying come mix time that Id use every mic that I've recorded, actually Id say half get tossed out. Hard drive space is cheap. I use it to my advantage. That sounds like excuses for not doing your prep properly. You don't use a room with weird modes. It's classical, orchestral music. You scout your location. You use an appropriate room. That's part of recording classical music. With classical music the "production" is almost entirely done in the pre-pro stage. You're dealing with classical musicians - a player better not be hung over - they won't last very long in that world if they are - these aren't rock stars. You check your gear in advance and use good quality stuff. You make sure your cabling is good. You check your mics. You're using top quality mics, so they shouldn't fail, and you bring a backup, so if a mic does fail you replace it. You set up and check everything in advance. With only 3 mics there isn't any excuse for not checking your gear in advance. You don't go in with the mentality that hard drive space is cheap - that breeds sloppy thinking. You don't go in with the mentality that you can fix it in the mix. You don't go in with the mentality that there's going to BE a mix in the usual sense, because there isn't. Thyat's not your job. That's the conductor's job. That's why they have conductors. You go in with the mentality that you're making a record of an event, you keep it simple, and since it's simple you can make sure that there aren't any unforeseen technical problems. The problem with usingt a bunch of spot mics or even section mics inb an orchgestral situation is that they tend to be obtrusive to some degree. That's fine in a pop recording or even modern styled jazz recordings, which have become somewhat infused with a pop mentality and aesthetic. But spot mics in classical tend to, oh, how shall I put this, be a bit jarring, they put the highlighted instrument on a sudden pedestal in an artificial way. It draws attention to the engineering. You don't want to draw attention to the engineering, it "breaks the spell". If you absolutely have to use a spot mic it should be done sparingly and carefully, and is generally a sign that something is wrong somewhere in the pre-pro. You don't want your soloist popping up like a jack-in-the-box. even a suave and formally attired jack in the box. You do the work in advance. You keep the quality high. If necessary you rent the appropriate mics and you rent from a reputable source. You have discipline. you do it right the first time. It's classical music, it's not rock and roll. In my opinion modern technology has done considerable damage to the way people approach recording. Ok, the lecture is over, you kids can get off the lawn now... |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Mar 30, 2017 12:24:32 GMT -6
Vincent you know I'm a fan of the minimalist techniques, modern orchestral recording practices grew out of the economics of recording a large ensembles primarily for film. Even with the huge budgets, they count every penny. In the Mercery days balance was achieved by moving players around and through players making adjustments, an orchestras time is the biggest expense, so supplementing the main mics became more and more common till the point where we are today. It's easier to raise a fader than re-track a session, add in the new world of surround, and those extra mics produce even more revenue.
At the heart of all this is fact that this is a Buisness first and an art second, it sucks but that's what it is.
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Post by Ward on Mar 30, 2017 12:40:49 GMT -6
Doesn't look like anyone has mentioned them yet, but you could get a pair of the Stager SR-2N's for $1000. Killer ribbons, priced waaayyy below their value. Check them out for sure. We can't keep them in stock... Ummm yeah, about that. Why not see if any one of us might be close to you who has either Samar or Royer ribbons for you to compare them to, or a Fostex Printed Ribbon (as myself and ericn promoted) or someone like me, who has all the above. I think you'll find the Stager ribbon is not only cheaper priced than the others but cheaper sounding too. And BTW, the Samar ones aren't that much more spendy! Worth every penny, when every penny counts. |
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