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Post by swurveman on Mar 17, 2017 7:57:42 GMT -6
When I record a band, the band invariably points to a reference song that sounds nothing like the drummer's snare, let alone the snare in my room. So, I spend hours trying to make it sound similar. I often get a close sounding snare sample, only having to deal with the snare in the overheads which changes the sample's sound. Even if I highpass the overheads, there's still artifacts from the original snare that change the sample's sound. Then, the reference song snare has some kind of natural room sound and often mono and/or stereo room mics. So, time is spent hunting for the right room(s). All in all a very challenging aspect to the job and one where I'm not compensated for all the time I spend.
So, what do you do to streamline the process? Ideally, the band's I record would have production budgets to meet with me and discuss the snare, have different snare's for different songs and I'd have a great room with multiple room mics, but that's not the case. So, I have to do it artificially and the quicker I can get to the end result the better.
What's your process?
I will say this: Even though it's difficult, I far prefer the sound of sample reinforced live drums to VST drums either put on a grid , or played with a midi controller. That being said, I find snare sculpting to be the most difficult aspect of the job. I also prefer specific samples in Drumagog to using Cubase's feature to trigger VST's. I find Drumagog truer to the velocity changes of the original drummer's velocities.
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Post by jazznoise on Mar 17, 2017 8:21:51 GMT -6
I listen to the record, try and tell them what the snare is and how it's tuned. If they want to emulate it, we can try retuning their snare. If that doesn't work, they can go ringing their buddies to see who has one or live with the snare sound that's seemingly been good enough for the last 18 months. I try to have all those conversations long before they're in the room to avoid crybaby tantrums.
I personally don't get this stuff at all, for the record. The guitar player doesn't turn to me with his Tube Screamer and say "I want more of a Big Muff type tone". "Can you get more of a Les Paul thing, my Strat is too Strat-y". Fair enough if the place advertises having extra music equipment, but why do people think you go to the studio and all your instruments will sound different?
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Post by svart on Mar 17, 2017 8:44:31 GMT -6
When I record a band, the band invariably points to a reference song that sounds nothing like the drummer's snare, let alone the snare in my room. So, I spend hours trying to make it sound similar. I often get a close sounding snare sample, only having to deal with the snare in the overheads which changes the sample's sound. Even if I highpass the overheads, there's still artifacts from the original snare that change the sample's sound. Then, the reference song snare has some kind of natural room sound and often mono and/or stereo room mics. So, time is spent hunting for the right room(s). All in all a very challenging aspect to the job and one where I'm not compensated for all the time I spend. So, what do you do to streamline the process? Ideally, the band's I record would have production budgets to meet with me and discuss the snare, have different snare's for different songs and I'd have a great room with multiple room mics, but that's not the case. So, I have to do it artificially and the quicker I can get to the end result the better. What's your process? I will say this: Even though it's difficult, I far prefer the sound of sample reinforced live drums to VST drums either put on a grid , or played with a midi controller. That being said, I find snare sculpting to be the most difficult aspect of the job. I also prefer specific samples in Drumagog to using Cubase's feature to trigger VST's. I find Drumagog truer to the velocity changes of the original drummer's velocities. First, I'd look at investing in a couple popular snares. Black Beauty/Black Magic is always on the top of the list. An acrolyte, a sensitone, something wood, etc, always as deep as you can get. A wide range of heads is also good. I always use either extra thick single-ply heads with dots, or double ply heads. When you compress a snare, you'll always bring out more ringing, so if you want a good amount of ringing, don't default to a thin head.. You'll lose the heavy attack and have nothing but ringing once it's in the mix. Moongel, wallets, muffle rings, etc, should be a last resort as they muffle un-naturally and the decay will be excessively short. Also, another thing that's almost never considered is the force of which the drummer hits the snare. You can't get a solid snare sound without solid hits. It just can't be done! The best snare, with the best heads still won't sound right without solid and consistent hits. On the production side, you can bet the snare is compressed heavily and gated/expanded too. I use an expander all the time on snare. it kills some of the bleed between hits, but it also rounds and extends the attack somewhat, making it more noticeable in the mix and giving it a slightly fatter tone. I use a compressor on the snare itself, but mostly only to control the body and ring-out of the snare (AKA 1176 with slow attack, fast release). If you use drum-bus compression and/or master bus compression, then those will take care of flattening the snare in the mix, so I don't worry about getting the 1176 to do all the work on the snare. Beware of the drummer! He'll try to convince you that his kit sounds "perfect", but you'll find the heads are old, dead, and out of tune, while the rest of the kit rattles and buzzes. Fix all this stuff and you'll find that things edit much easier. Never underestimate the buildup of imperfections in the mix. Lots of pro sessions will change heads every take, or every couple takes, and will certainly retune the drums between takes. Gaffer/duct/masking tape is your friend and use it (as well as spray teflon lube) to mute any possible buzzing, creaks and noises. Along with an assortment of snare heads, I also keep a stack of batter and resonant heads for toms and kick drums. Between all this stuff, you'll have a much more pure drum sound, and then mic/preamp choice will start to make a much bigger difference. Then, also be aware that drums are often EQ'd very heavily. I always boost 10K and somewhere around 100-200hz on snare, and then cut somewhere around 200-600 depending on the "honk". It'll sound like ass solo'd but will give the snare the power and clarity to cut through without boosting the level in the mix. Being a drummer, I'm ridiculously anal about the drum sounds I get, and I've never had a drummer dislike my results. If I could only record guitar as good.. But that's another story. |
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Post by Ward on Mar 17, 2017 9:12:41 GMT -6
Sounds like a job for Batch Commander. Replace the snare with a sample. Use Batch Commander to create all the trigger points, convert to midi, and then sample the trigger you want. Or take a wave-form and just drop it on top of every snare hit.
I personally loathe this kind of method and believe you always start with the right drum sound and have the drummer and rest of band satisfied with it... knowing that THIS is the snare that will be in the mix... but sometimes you have to deal with the unexpected and the age old adage of "Never let your expectations exceed your ambitions' is thrown out the window, for want of a better phrase.
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Post by ragan on Mar 17, 2017 10:38:52 GMT -6
When I record a band, the band invariably points to a reference song that sounds nothing like the drummer's snare, let alone the snare in my room. So, I spend hours trying to make it sound similar. I often get a close sounding snare sample, only having to deal with the snare in the overheads which changes the sample's sound. Even if I highpass the overheads, there's still artifacts from the original snare that change the sample's sound. Then, the reference song snare has some kind of natural room sound and often mono and/or stereo room mics. So, time is spent hunting for the right room(s). All in all a very challenging aspect to the job and one where I'm not compensated for all the time I spend. So, what do you do to streamline the process? Ideally, the band's I record would have production budgets to meet with me and discuss the snare, have different snare's for different songs and I'd have a great room with multiple room mics, but that's not the case. So, I have to do it artificially and the quicker I can get to the end result the better. What's your process? I will say this: Even though it's difficult, I far prefer the sound of sample reinforced live drums to VST drums either put on a grid , or played with a midi controller. That being said, I find snare sculpting to be the most difficult aspect of the job. I also prefer specific samples in Drumagog to using Cubase's feature to trigger VST's. I find Drumagog truer to the velocity changes of the original drummer's velocities. I've spent a lot of time getting samples to blend with my drums. Couple things that I've come to rely on. Transient Designer (Softube). Rather than trying to EQ the snare out of the OH, try just reducing snap of the OH altogether. Just a little and you'll find the sample sits way better in the kit. Sidechaining. Take a send off the mic'd snare and put a compressor on the OH with its sidechain key'd to that send. Then use something clean and fast (I like Cytomic's The Glue for this) to have the snare duck'd out of the OH. I do the same for kick sometimes if the kick in the OH is overwhelming where I want it to sit with the close mics/samples. Make your own samples. Every time I mic a kit, I do a bunch of individual hits from full cracking/booming to gentle. Now I have dozens to choose from. It's hard to get super sizzly/smacky/processed retail sample to blend with an average kit mic'd in an average room. Plus many of those retail samples just sound like ass. I use Slate Trigger because the engine is so good and flexible and fast but I usually use blends of my own samples. Also, using a sample from the exact kit you're working with sounds, obviously, way more natural. So have the drummer do some hits for you and use those. If they want a big room sound and you're not getting it from the mic'd up sound, try just making a stereo sample of only the room mics, on just a snare hit, smashed up with some fast release 1176 and then blend that stereo smashed room snare sound back into the actual kit. Can sound totally seamless since it's the same kit/room/mics. |
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Post by EmRR on Mar 17, 2017 16:23:25 GMT -6
The pre-pro talk always covers this ground; you will sound like what you sound like, so get it all set up and finely tuned before you come in. 'Cause I know you have no money to pay me for this part too. Record rehearsals on ANYTHING and analyze the sonics. Make changes if you don't like them. If it's close, we can get it closer. If you haven't paid attention and it's wildly different, we can't. If you have a sizable budget we can do it on the clock, rent gear, etc. But you don't.
I remember a band way back wanting the drums to sound like a Jawbox record when they came in, and we got close to that, everyone happy. By the time mix rolled around, they wanted them to sound like a Snapcase record; polar opposite. Couldn't understand the problem, denied having ever made the Jawbox request. Shit happens.
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Post by svart on Mar 17, 2017 16:54:01 GMT -6
The pre-pro talk always covers this ground; you will sound like what you sound like, so get it all set up and finely tuned before you come in. 'Cause I know you have no money to pay me for this part too. Record rehearsals on ANYTHING and analyze the sonics. Make changes if you don't like them. If it's close, we can get it closer. If you haven't paid attention and it's wildly different, we can't. If you have a sizable budget we can do it on the clock, rent gear, etc. But you don't. I remember a band way back wanting the drums to sound like a Jawbox record when they came in, and we got close to that, everyone happy. By the time mix rolled around, they wanted them to sound like a Snapcase record; polar opposite. Couldn't understand the problem, denied having ever made the Jawbox request. Shit happens. If I had a dollar for every time a band wanted a completely different sound at mix time, than they wanted during tracking.. |
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Post by nobtwiddler on Mar 17, 2017 17:58:15 GMT -6
That happened a lot to me back in the 80's...
Almost every session.
That being said, rarely requested in the last 15 or so years.
Since I never had or used triggers or samples, it always came back to changing, tuning, or whatever needed to be done to the snare drum...
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Post by jazznoise on Mar 17, 2017 21:08:40 GMT -6
You tell them: Whatever it sounds like on the day, is how it'll sound at the end. I can make it dryier, I can make it roomier, I can make it wider/narrower, but I'm not going to turn your 18" floor tom into a conga and I can't make your extra deep maple snare into a piccolo snare for love nor money.
+100 on attending or recording rehearsals. Even the act of doing without any criticism it makes them pay more attention and become a better sounding band:"Hey, the bass sounds really flubby..and my A string on my guitar is always out of tune, I better get it fixed!"
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Post by forgotteng on Mar 28, 2017 18:21:52 GMT -6
This is a fascinating thread. I love some of the fixes. ragan I gotta try some of those sidechain tricks. That being said I rarely come across these problems. I have a couple different snares but mostly, I suppose, in meeting with bands I let them know that I'm not the guy if your looking to sound like someone else. I'm more interested in finding out who you are and what your tone is. But the reality is by my reputation I tend to work on organic original music with fairly standard drum sounds so when they listen back it pretty much sounds like them playing drums. This type of thing drives me crazy trying to fix something that they liked when we were originally tracking. One thing that freaks me out is when I hear whispering from the band and I catch a statement like "Don't worry, It won't sound that way in the mix. He'll fix it up." Whoa whoa whoa what does that mean and what are your expectations? |
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 28, 2017 22:56:01 GMT -6
During set up for tracking I simply put a KM-84 (or if that isn't available a C451) by the side of the snare a couple of inches away, give or take, and maybe an inch to the side of the vent hole. I listen to the monitor and adjust up or down for balance between heads. I don't have a problem with snare in the overheads because I quit using the damn things, they just cause phase/leakage problems. Instead I use a front of kit (maybe 18" in front or the rack tom(s) and maybe 6" to 1' above, give or take, and a (floor tom) side of kit, about a foot or so from the floor tom(s)(if present) and somewhat (6"-12") about the top head of the floor and the snare, give or take a bit, and approximately the same distence from the snare from the front of kit. Check phase, add in a kick mic at the front edge and done. Maybe touch one or another gently with the EQ if needed, not much. Front and side are LDCs, usually tube mics, kick is an RE-20 or D-12. (EDIT: I'd consider 4038s for front and side if I had any....)
Sounds like drums. Don't like the sound? Change some heads or bring another kit.
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Post by donr on Mar 29, 2017 1:44:34 GMT -6
For me, in a pop mix, about 60% of a snare sound is reverb. Almost all close mic'ed snare doesn't have any snares in it. Hence the widespread use of the "snare trick" of re-recording the gated snare track with the mic on the snares and exciting the drum with an Auratone or small speaker in the live room at mix time. It's fashionable to use replacements or augmentations of snares with samples, it's what you hear from the big names, ain't it? Whatever works and makes the track sound good. For tracking, I'm also a fan of mic'ing the snare shell instead of the heads. Sounds like the drum.  |
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Post by forgotteng on Mar 29, 2017 6:46:01 GMT -6
donr, that meme is where it's at. Cracking me up.
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Post by svart on Mar 29, 2017 8:30:13 GMT -6
10K in mics -> 12K in preamps -> 5K in converters -> mixed on 100K console -> MP3 sold for 1$.
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Post by rowmat on Mar 29, 2017 12:05:58 GMT -6
10K in mics -> 12K in preamps -> 5K in converters -> mixed on 100K console -> MP3 sold for 1$. Don't you mean sold for $0.00032 cents on Spotify? |
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Post by illacov on Mar 29, 2017 12:18:13 GMT -6
Ok I'll share a really slick and really good sounding trick for drum dampening that doesn't impact tone as much as the wallets and the gels do. Copper Flashing. Dead serious. Thin copper flashing with some gorilla tape is AMAZING on cymbals, hi hats, toms, snares AND kick drums. I park a small piece like a dollar coin inside the hi hat on the under side of the top hat near the center, closer to the edge makes the decay very short so near where the bell and the body of the cymbal meet is a balanced spot to park it. Works like this on cymbals too. Again, copper flashing, the kind you put on chimneys. Before somebody finger wags, ignore what they are saying, run to the hardware store and try it. A small piece near the edge of a snare drum or the underside of a tom or a larger piece (half a Hershey Chocolate bar) on the batter head of a kick drum will change your life forever. Cut one shots of these drums, use this dampening, you will lose your shit. Do the same thing again but intentionally distort the mic preamps or use Zulu in a lofi setting to have as parallel triggers as well. FYI I've also triggered real snare drums with a guitar amp etc, but I trigger both sides of the snare as well. Top and bottom. Just spin that puppy around and try it. EQ on the guitar amp impacts how it sounds too  Thanks -L. |
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Post by svart on Mar 29, 2017 13:20:17 GMT -6
Ok I'll share a really slick and really good sounding trick for drum dampening that doesn't impact tone as much as the wallets and the gels do. Copper Flashing. Dead serious. Thin copper flashing with some gorilla tape is AMAZING on cymbals, hi hats, toms, snares AND kick drums. I park a small piece like a dollar coin inside the hi hat on the under side of the top hat near the center, closer to the edge makes the decay very short so near where the bell and the body of the cymbal meet is a balanced spot to park it. Works like this on cymbals too. Again, copper flashing, the kind you put on chimneys. Before somebody finger wags, ignore what they are saying, run to the hardware store and try it. A small piece near the edge of a snare drum or the underside of a tom or a larger piece (half a Hershey Chocolate bar) on the batter head of a kick drum will change your life forever. Cut one shots of these drums, use this dampening, you will lose your shit. Do the same thing again but intentionally distort the mic preamps or use Zulu in a lofi setting to have as parallel triggers as well. FYI I've also triggered real snare drums with a guitar amp etc, but I trigger both sides of the snare as well. Top and bottom. Just spin that puppy around and try it. EQ on the guitar amp impacts how it sounds too Thanks -L. Post a pic of it! |
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Post by illacov on Mar 29, 2017 13:36:58 GMT -6
Ok I'll share a really slick and really good sounding trick for drum dampening that doesn't impact tone as much as the wallets and the gels do. Copper Flashing. Dead serious. Thin copper flashing with some gorilla tape is AMAZING on cymbals, hi hats, toms, snares AND kick drums. I park a small piece like a dollar coin inside the hi hat on the under side of the top hat near the center, closer to the edge makes the decay very short so near where the bell and the body of the cymbal meet is a balanced spot to park it. Works like this on cymbals too. Again, copper flashing, the kind you put on chimneys. Before somebody finger wags, ignore what they are saying, run to the hardware store and try it. A small piece near the edge of a snare drum or the underside of a tom or a larger piece (half a Hershey Chocolate bar) on the batter head of a kick drum will change your life forever. Cut one shots of these drums, use this dampening, you will lose your shit. Do the same thing again but intentionally distort the mic preamps or use Zulu in a lofi setting to have as parallel triggers as well. FYI I've also triggered real snare drums with a guitar amp etc, but I trigger both sides of the snare as well. Top and bottom. Just spin that puppy around and try it. EQ on the guitar amp impacts how it sounds too Thanks -L. Post a pic of it! That's the beauty of it. All you see is a small piece of Black gorilla tape. The copper flashing is on the sticky side Keeps little punk wanna be engineers from stealing your good azz tricks for smokin drum sounds. LOL You want a picture of a snare drum with some black tape on it? Thanks -L. |
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 29, 2017 13:52:54 GMT -6
That's the beauty of it. All you see is a small piece of Black gorilla tape. The copper flashing is on the sticky side Keeps little punk wanna be engineers from stealing your good azz tricks for smokin drum sounds. LOL You want a picture of a snare drum with some black tape on it? Thanks -L. Gorilla tape? Not gaffer tape? |
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Post by ChaseUTB on Mar 29, 2017 14:27:42 GMT -6
10K in mics -> 12K in preamps -> 5K in converters -> mixed on 100K console -> MP3 sold for 1$. $1.29 on iTunes as a single 🤗 |
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Post by donr on Mar 29, 2017 14:58:49 GMT -6
Ah, Langston, so that would be Gorilla taped damped copper flashing. Was gonna ask you why you thought of that, but hey, you're the guy who thought of the ZULU. Where do you get the flashing?
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Post by joseph on Mar 29, 2017 15:28:41 GMT -6
That's the beauty of it. All you see is a small piece of Black gorilla tape. The copper flashing is on the sticky side Keeps little punk wanna be engineers from stealing your good azz tricks for smokin drum sounds. LOL You want a picture of a snare drum with some black tape on it? Thanks -L. Interesting. I started using a ring of keys to dampen hi hats after reading Albini does that. Works! |
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Post by illacov on Mar 29, 2017 15:51:22 GMT -6
Ah, Langston, so that would be Gorilla taped damped copper flashing. Was gonna ask you why you thought of that, but hey, you're the guy who thought of the ZULU. Where do you get the flashing? Hardware store or see if you can score some off a guy who fixes chimneys. Not super thick stuff, but malleable enough to form into shapes or fold without tearing. You need shears to cut the stuff I'm talking about. Thinner than a coin, thicker than cooking foil. Plumber tape works too but don't stick it to the drum stick it to the sticky side of the tape (sticky to sticky). A drummer taught me bout the plumber's tape. Copper flashing was my own discovery Thanks -L. |
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 29, 2017 16:25:28 GMT -6
Ah, Langston, so that would be Gorilla taped damped copper flashing. Was gonna ask you why you thought of that, but hey, you're the guy who thought of the ZULU. Where do you get the flashing? Hardware store or see if you can score some off a guy who fixes chimneys. Not super thick stuff, but malleable enough to form into shapes or fold without tearing. You need shears to cut the stuff I'm talking about. Thinner than a coin, thicker than cooking foil. Plumber tape works too but don't stick it to the drum stick it to the sticky side of the tape (sticky to sticky). A drummer taught me bout the plumber's tape. Copper flashing was my own discovery Thanks -L. Most of the flashing I've seen in hardware stores around here has been aluminum. However some hardware stores have a display of copper, brass, stainless and aluminum rods and tubes in varios small configurations, I assume for modelers, and the usually have thin copper, brass, and stainless sheeting ranging from foil to maybe 1/32" in small quantities. I get copper and brass there for guitar shielding. |
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Post by Ward on Mar 30, 2017 8:41:28 GMT -6
Whatever tricks work, who cares? Prepping a drum to sound the way you want it to in a mix makes the capture so much easier and harder to fool up.
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