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Post by rowmat on Mar 29, 2017 11:34:52 GMT -6
You have tried a KM84 on an acoustic? No, but I did own a KM184 for a while. That was by far my favorite SDC I have tried on acoustic guitars, I was using it a lot. I'm sure the KM84 is equally magical. The only reason I sold mine was to build a modern computer, I'm sure I'll get another one or two later. We have a pair of KM184's and three KM84's and a KMS84i. I bought the mint boxed pair of KM184's quite cheap about 18 months ago (around $1000 USD) because they're the kind of SDC's I felt we probably should have in our mic locker. How many times have I used them on a recording since I bought them? Zero! I stick them up against a KM84 and then put them back in the mic locker. Justifying hanging onto the KM184's is becoming an issue. Do yourself a favour and try a KM84.
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Post by Guitar on Mar 29, 2017 13:10:18 GMT -6
I really should do that, good advice!
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Post by swurveman on Mar 30, 2017 19:18:50 GMT -6
Thought I'd share what two Lauten Atlantis 387's sound like in mid/side on an acoustic guitar Lauten
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 30, 2017 19:35:39 GMT -6
I know I've said this a bunch, but I thought the Gefell M300 held up really well in comparison. In fact, it's more ready to put in a production than the 84...brighter on top and bottom, but not in a bad way. The 84 is just the truth...
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Post by jeremygillespie on Mar 30, 2017 22:35:39 GMT -6
No, but I did own a KM184 for a while. That was by far my favorite SDC I have tried on acoustic guitars, I was using it a lot. I'm sure the KM84 is equally magical. The only reason I sold mine was to build a modern computer, I'm sure I'll get another one or two later. We have a pair of KM184's and three KM84's and a KMS84i. I bought the mint boxed pair of KM184's quite cheap about 18 months ago (around $1000 USD) because they're the kind of SDC's I felt we probably should have in our mic locker. How many times have I used them on a recording since I bought them? Zero! I stick them up against a KM84 and then put them back in the mic locker. Justifying hanging onto the KM184's is becoming an issue. Do yourself a favour and try a KM84. I have had the exact same experience with the 184's I keep wanting them to be great, and they always wind up going back in the closet. Not sure why they had to go and change a perfectly good design.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,011
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Post by ericn on Apr 1, 2017 13:21:10 GMT -6
We have a pair of KM184's and three KM84's and a KMS84i. I bought the mint boxed pair of KM184's quite cheap about 18 months ago (around $1000 USD) because they're the kind of SDC's I felt we probably should have in our mic locker. How many times have I used them on a recording since I bought them? Zero! I stick them up against a KM84 and then put them back in the mic locker. Justifying hanging onto the KM184's is becoming an issue. Do yourself a favour and try a KM84. I have had the exact same experience with the 184's I keep wanting them to be great, and they always wind up going back in the closet. Not sure why they had to go and change a perfectly good design. Just summed up the 184 better than anything I can think of.
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Post by rowmat on Apr 1, 2017 16:00:14 GMT -6
I actually prefer Oktava MK012's over KM184's. To my ears they sound closer to KM84's than the 184's do. They have a more low's than the 184's.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Apr 1, 2017 16:19:20 GMT -6
I actually prefer Oktava MK012's over KM184's. To my ears they sound closer to KM84's than the 184's do. They have a more low's than the 184's. If an 012 sounds like an 84, I'm not interested in 84's. Haha
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Post by drbill on Apr 1, 2017 17:00:18 GMT -6
I actually prefer Oktava MK012's over KM184's. To my ears they sound closer to KM84's than the 184's do. They have a more low's than the 184's. If an 012 sounds like an 84, I'm not interested in 84's. Haha Then definitely don't get 84's. Modded 012's - not sure of the differences between modded and unmodded as I got mine modded as soon as I got them - can be virtually identical on SOME sources. (Not all) I intercut between MJ modded 012's and KM84's and dozens of people - including myself and the guitarist - could not hear the splices. If I could keep only one, I'd choose the KM84's. And in reality, I'd much prefer KM86's - even if they had to stay cardiod - over KM84's every time.
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Post by Guitar on Apr 1, 2017 17:00:25 GMT -6
Yeah I sold my MK 012 a while back. To my personal taste the 184 was a big upgrade. I know a lot of people love those MK 012 though, I see them everywhere.
My replacement was the KSM137 (or KSM141) to me this is the mic to beat in that price range, also very underrated.
These days I use some heavily modified CAD and MXL sdc mics more than anything, mics I paid in the neighborhood of $30 each. They needed some pretty intense work though. Really was able to polish them up. I'm sure you could mod your oktavas in similar ways, like Joly does.
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Post by drbill on Apr 1, 2017 17:02:27 GMT -6
AS for the original question, I've recorded countless ac guitars (and for that matter amps too) with a U87. Never a problem. I generally tend to go towards either KM86's or MJ205 ribbons on acoustics these days..... But I can make a U87 work on almost any acoustic if needed. (I tend to not mic the guitar the same as I do with a SDC though)
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Post by rowmat on Apr 1, 2017 17:04:36 GMT -6
I suspect KM184's might work better going to tape say at 15ips. Some softening of the transients and a little head bump effect might help them somewhat.
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Post by drbill on Apr 1, 2017 17:06:15 GMT -6
These days I use some heavily modified CAD and MXL sdc mics more than anything, monkeyxx - how do you deal with the MXL SDCapsule? I personally found it to be the most horrid SDC I've ever heard - even with the electronics upgraded. Phasey and totally weird sounding compared to everything else I owned. Maybe I had a different model than you, but the 991's and 604's that I had were essentially the same..... if forced to, I'd much rather use a dynamic on acoustic. I will say that the 991, 603, 604 can make a very cool snare drum mic when you're reticent to put your KM84 under the hands of an inexperienced drummer. I can also use them on toms in a pinch, although not my go to.
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Post by Guitar on Apr 1, 2017 17:13:17 GMT -6
These days I use some heavily modified CAD and MXL sdc mics more than anything, monkeyxx - how do you deal with the MXL SDCapsule? I personally found it to be the most horrid SDC I've ever heard - even with the electronics upgraded. Phasey and totally weird sounding compared to everything else I owned. Maybe I had a different model than you, but the 991's and 604's that I had were essentially the same..... if forced to, I'd much rather use a dynamic on acoustic. I will say that the 991, 603, 604 can make a very cool snare drum mic when you're reticent to put your KM84 under the hands of an inexperienced drummer. I can also use them on toms in a pinch, although not my go to. My CAD mics have a little smoother top than than the MXL mics, sort of got lucky on that buy. I think there's a couple of de-emphasis caps that can be used in the Schoeps circuit that some of these mics have and some don't. Jim Williams was talking about this a while back. I haven't proved it but my theory is that the CAD mics I got must have some of these caps. You could mod the MXL electronics to reduce some of the top end peak, it would be a pretty simple mod. I don't use the MXL bodies as much because of the brightness. If I was doing a big Beck or Radiohead style arrangement and I wanted the guitar to slice through I might reach for them. Obviously you could just boost the EQ on a flatter mic in the mix. The MXL I ended up with do sound pretty sweet on acoustic, only when you want that really bright tone though. Vaguely it's a bit like a 451 or something, although has its own sound. I think the capsules are interchangeable, the difference I think is more in the electronics inside the bodies. My capsule mods cleaned up a lot of that phaseyness you are describing, I heard that too.
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Post by jazznoise on Apr 1, 2017 17:18:24 GMT -6
I actually prefer Oktava MK012's over KM184's. To my ears they sound closer to KM84's than the 184's do. They have a more low's than the 184's. If an 012 sounds like an 84, I'm not interested in 84's. Haha I've used KM184's and Oktava MK012's recently, both for recording electric guitar. The KM184 is brighter but other than that the response is very similar, the proximity effect is a little different too as the KM184's low end feels a little more even and extended.
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Post by Guitar on Apr 1, 2017 17:22:57 GMT -6
Sometimes I love to put SDC mics on an electric guitar amp. I thought the KM184 on my Champ was one of the best sounds I have heard. Sort of a secret weapon in that regard.
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gavg
Full Member
Posts: 33
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Post by gavg on Apr 4, 2017 6:17:53 GMT -6
At the risk of sounding 'snobbish' (!), I have always found there to be quite a gulf between the 84 and the 184. The 184 feels a bit lifeless to me while the 84 has some magic about it. It can delver really big sounds, always surprises me. The 184 I have used plenty and is a usable/functional mic, but the 84 is in a different league, in my opinion.
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Post by aamicrophones on Apr 4, 2017 12:53:31 GMT -6
Hi Guys, our CM1084 is closer sounding to the KM84 that a KM184. The KM184 has a transformerless class A/B IC output circuit compared to the KM84 class "A" single fet transformer coupled circuit.
The circuit in the KM84 is identical to the U87 less the circuitry for pattern selection. Now, the U87 has active de-emphasis to reduce the rather rude rise in the K67/87 capsule up at 10khz and this is not required with the KM84 capsule.
We spent a lot of time getting our CM1084 as close as possible to the KM84 but the selected cardiod capsules we use still sounds and measures about 2db brighter at 8khz. However, the CM1084 with the super-cardiod fitted sounds remarkably similar to a KM84.
Unfortunately, I have to borrow a buddies KM84 to compare. I have two KM84's here but both capsules are compromised. The CM1084 has a transformer coupled class "A" circuitry but with 14db more headroom than the KM84.
I like to use the CM1084 on snare drum/Hi Hat and for miking conga's in stereo. The hard part in "cloning" the KM84 response is the capsule. We have not been able to find a capsule that is quite smooth enough in the upper-midrange.
We have to be very, very stringent with the selection of the cardiod capsule in the CM1084 to get a smooth response that will come within striking distance of the KM84 capsule.
However, we did have a acoustical resonator designed that fits in front of the capsule that was made with a 3D printer. This resonator was designed to reduce the rise in the 8khz range in cardiod.
Our friends at Angel Studios in London where the Adele String Sessions were recorded with our CM67se microphones in the Decca tree are testing two CM1084 microphones with the resonator disks against their KM84's and will report back in the next few weeks.
Angel has 30-KM84 microphones and they tell us on single instruments they like the CM1084 as much as the KM84 but they feel the extra 8khz rise builds up when they use multiple KM84 microphones over each pair of string players.
David Royer and I believe there is a recognizeable and measurable sonic difference between a class "A" transformer coupled circuit in the KM84 compared to the transformerless IC circuit of the KM184. The transformerless circuit looks quite exceptable with a simple sine wave but when you put a more complex square wave through the circuit it does not look acceptable to our "Techy" sensibilities. So, David and I have come to the conclusion that the KM184 transfomerless IC circuit does not handle complex music waveforms as well as the original class "A" transformer coupled KM84 circuit.
Although, I found the Oktava 012 capsules to be a bit inconsistent the circuit in the Oktava is nearly identical to the KM84 being single Fet class "A" transformer coupled. The transformer in the Oktava is also not quite up to the KM84 specifications but its quite adequate.
So, that's the "Techy" point of view. As well, I should point out that transformers have much better common mode rejection than transformerless circuits. You can still get ground loops, hums and EMi inteference leaking through transformerless circuit on occassion while the transformer completely breaks any dc connection and the audio is only coupled through the transformer windings not through a circuit that eventually is referenced to ground.
Cheers, Dave
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Post by EmRR on Apr 4, 2017 13:29:03 GMT -6
Brain fart Dave, there is no transformer in the Oktava 012.
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Post by aamicrophones on Apr 4, 2017 14:33:37 GMT -6
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gavg
Full Member
Posts: 33
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Post by gavg on Apr 4, 2017 17:38:02 GMT -6
Wow, that's fascinting information about the KM84 and the other mics. Thanks Dave. I'm not that technical but can just about understand about half of what you're saying! As a long time user I've never found other SDC to quite deliver what the 84 can, even though there are some great ones out there. I do like the Schoeps CMC 5u(i think it's called) and also the B&K 4011. Both great sounds, but the 84 has some mojo! As does it's cousins, the 54's and 86's. Thanks again for sharing all the info. I'll be looking out for your new mic.
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