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Post by bluegrassdan on Feb 26, 2017 10:53:03 GMT -6
Hey folks, Here is a video sample of a comparison between my hand-built AML ez1073 preamps and a two-channel point-to-point tube preamp I finished this week. Using my Flea 47 [EF12 tube, F7 (M7) capsule] on vocals, Flea U47 on guitar (left) and Neumann KM84 (right). Curious to know everyone's thoughts. Which do you prefer in this setting? Thanks in advance! Pro Tools session available here (24/96k): www.dropbox.com/sh/5nc613f7ymeefvt/AADTgpkZ66fQWqW9tRdpUc-Ia?dl=0
And one more video demonstrating the low shelf filter: |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2017 11:18:33 GMT -6
gotta comment. ... that guitar just sounds killer, and the tube for me by a long mile...
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Post by rowmat on Feb 26, 2017 12:32:40 GMT -6
Awesome comparison.
Great performance and sound.
My money's on the tube for both guitar and vocals.
The Neve didn't sound bad but the tube was smoother and richer to my ears.
We have the same mics so this definitely grabbed my attention.
How did you setup the pre's?
On first listen the playback appears pretty seamless between preamps so were you using mic splitters or are they separate performances?
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Post by sozocaps on Feb 26, 2017 12:41:16 GMT -6
WOW ... hard one.... They both have great!!!! qualities. I would say the tube on vox(super up front and clear and in your face huge) and Neve style on guitar(tube preamp is sweet up top {but soft and not like I am hearing my own pick} and boomy on the bottom [too much body] but not solid and connected) BUT the tracks don't glue when I hear the tube on vox and ss on guitar. Overall I feel the Neve is more solid everywhere.
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Post by wiz on Feb 26, 2017 15:12:18 GMT -6
thats first rate... playing , singing , engineering.... really good job
(whats the verb?)
Whilst I wouldnt kick the AML out of bed, its hard to go passed that tube pre amp on both.
Great gear, great talent, great song.... recoding is easy 8)
cheers
Wiz
PS details on the tube pre?
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Post by bluegrassdan on Feb 26, 2017 16:26:37 GMT -6
Thanks so much, guys. The verb is Altiverb, although I don't remember what settings were used. I can go back and check.
The tube pre began when I read Scott Hampton's article in Tape Op, which provides a schematic and multi-page description. After starting into it though, several things changed; component values, adding components, removing, using a totally different PSU.
I also added a switch with two low shelf filter settings (not high pass, but gentle shelves). These really tighten up the low end that folks here were describing as being too loose. Maybe I'll post another sample with the filters engaged, but for now I kept it flat.
Keep em coming!
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Post by M57 on Feb 26, 2017 18:13:01 GMT -6
1073 on vocal - tube on guitar for me. The tube is seductive on the vocal, but if I had to guess I think it's a tad louder. Regardless, your vocal just calls for and deserves the more pristine and intimate sound of the 1073. Just fantastic production all around.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Feb 26, 2017 21:37:09 GMT -6
Great recording, I think both sound great. You asked and also put up a poll, so let me be uber subjective 😂😀 OK, the tube Pre on vox was a little strident to me during the gown part where you belt out. The AML Neve had a smokey character I like. Then when hearing the lyrics it seemed to match the aesthetic of the overall production, the tube ore was too polished for this. I had in my mind of what a reminiscent longing regretful vocal should sound like and the aml neve did that perfect. I voted 1073 on vox, tube on gtr. The shimmer I liked on the gtr, the clarity contrasted the longing reminiscent Vocal perfect to me 🤠Great flavors of pres man!
Are those the 19" AML's? Is the graphic the actual faceplate and knobs? Does AML offer the battleship blue gray neve face plates? I assume those are Marconi knobs as well... I have heard the AML being one of the best clone or reiterations of 1073, however the Don classics has the advantage aesthetic and knives wise over AML 500 series ez1073... If the 19" AML look like that I may order two instead of looking for a used or new gtq2....
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Post by bluegrassdan on Feb 26, 2017 23:34:10 GMT -6
Chase,
Thanks for the detailed response. The 19" AML is offered as a kit WITHOUT a case, IEC inlet, or knobs. Dan at collectivecases.com supplies the case and knobs are, indeed, Marconi. His 1073s are vocal recording champs!
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Post by Mister Chase on Feb 26, 2017 23:49:15 GMT -6
I'll check it on monitors tomorrow but on phones I prefer the tube on both. Something this sparse has enough space and I like how the tubes fill that in and sort of hold things together. Nothing wrong with the aml but tubes seem closer to finished to my ears.
I experience similar findings anytime I AB my tube pre against my solid state pres.
Fantastic performance!
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Post by rocinante on Feb 27, 2017 7:41:43 GMT -6
Yeah, that really is a great recording in a great mix and damn a pretty cool song to boot.
Ah both.
Chase; You can get the front panels from a couple of places; including collective cases and rackneve in russia.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Feb 27, 2017 8:42:10 GMT -6
Chase, Thanks for the detailed response. The 19" AML is offered as a kit WITHOUT a case, IEC inlet, or knobs. Dan at collectivecases.com supplies the case and knobs are, indeed, Marconi. His 1073s are vocal recording champs! Excellent could you PM the info on the total build and cost or if you don't mind sharing the final cost of the AML modules publicly that would be awesome 😀 I want 19" b/c I am not a lunch box user, but never liked the gray aml 500 series. I have a Thiersch Blue Line m7 capsule mic fet though not tube, aside from that I feel our mics are similar sharing the m7 capsule and that AML soundsglorious with your mic on your voice. The flea 47 with that aml would a producer's secret weapon! Once in PT I can see hitting 6db at 12khz with a Pultec would just be pure heaven after some opto leveling on the flea & aml chain. Flea -> Aml -> la2 / Cl1b : come mix time hit that Pultec 6db at 12khz or 16khz maybe some slow attack fast release 1176 to keep it locked in .... pure heaven ... can see this working great for pop or the modern female country sound as well as the male vocal you have shown off! Excellent vid of the recording and singing 🤠|
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Feb 27, 2017 11:29:53 GMT -6
an AML build is about $900 with cheap Radio Shack knobs and Dan's case. Marconi knobs from CAPI add another $110 or so.
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Post by Mister Chase on Feb 27, 2017 11:31:21 GMT -6
So, I have changed my vote since listening on monitors. Both are great. There is something about the slightly clearer sound of the 1073 type that is quite nice. The tubes still fill things out nicely, but I could go either way here. Aesthetic choice I suppose. I feel like 1073 has the slightly more modern appeal.
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Post by Guitar on Feb 27, 2017 15:12:57 GMT -6
I like the Neve clones a lot. But the Tube thing always has this thing that happens in the low end for me. I started out preferring the tube pre on vocals, and then to get the guitar to match the sonics, I just thought the tube pre matched better with the vocal when they were both on the tube preamps.
Really tough call, since they both are extremely nice. I am a little short on tube mic pres around here lately. I'm not sure there's any other way to get that big kind of sound.
Certainly you are well heeled in the preamp department these days!
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Post by jcoutu1 on Feb 27, 2017 15:47:17 GMT -6
1073 on vocal - tube on guitar for me. Just fantastic production all around. +1. Really nice. |
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Post by ChaseUTB on Feb 27, 2017 16:52:58 GMT -6
1073 on vocal - tube on guitar for me. Â Just fantastic production all around. +1. Really nice. Same choice here and what I polled |
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Post by drsax on Feb 27, 2017 20:45:04 GMT -6
1073 on vocal - tube on guitar for me. Â Just fantastic production all around. +1. Really nice. Same here... I will say though - there is a thing with the Neves that just glues things together in a really cool way. I might like to hear the vocal with the Neve, and then the guitar recorded through the tube pre into the Neve EQ to get the best of both worlds. Tracks sound great - through both preamps. Very nicely done man |
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Post by bluegrassdan on Feb 27, 2017 21:37:22 GMT -6
Thanks so much for all the input. I'm going to add one more video shortly. I built into the tube preamp a three position switch: one flat and two gentle low shelves that roll off some of the mud and tighten things up. They are not high pass filters, but honest to goodness shelves that maintain the low frequency info.
Should have it recorded in a couple hours. Stay tuned!
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Post by Mister Chase on Feb 27, 2017 23:27:48 GMT -6
I love all the sounds, really. Something about good tube preamps bring the sound up out of the speaker in a gentle and rich way. Not like an API forwardness, but something else. There's really a great use for all types of gear...
Looking forward to the next video!
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Post by bluegrassdan on Feb 28, 2017 1:44:29 GMT -6
Here is the "final" final video. This speaks to what many of you pointed out in your comments, and what I perceived during the design. The tube preamp on guitar is a bit mushy in the low frequencies, so I incorporated a couple of three-position switches with two different low shelving RC networks between the first and second gain stages. The result is not just a gentle decrease in the low frequencies, but also a tightening up of the phase relationship and punchier transients due to resistive loading between the gain stages. I think that the Tube pre with low shelf on guitar along with the 1073 vocal wins the prize. What say you? |
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Post by bluegrassdan on Feb 28, 2017 1:46:39 GMT -6
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Post by Mister Chase on Feb 28, 2017 14:45:27 GMT -6
Oh wow. Yea, the shelf filter you have set up there does indeed make a difference. I think I'm pretty sold on the 1073 vox and tube guitar combo from this video.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Feb 28, 2017 15:41:17 GMT -6
Hot damn. How much for a pair?  |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 28, 2017 15:48:28 GMT -6
Tremendous videos Dan! Thanks for posting. It's funny, in isolation, I might have preferred the tube preamp, but with the guitar, the Neve just felt right on the vocal. You could go either way on the guitar, but I like big acoustic guitars, so the tube would be just fine.
What I found really interesting is the sound of the vocal with the tube pre is a kind of sound I try to dial out when I'm mixing, it's a bit forward, and felt a little unbalanced, maybe needing some kind of compression or automation to even it out. I felt none of that with the Neve.
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