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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 24, 2017 15:14:33 GMT -6
So got the ATCs in today and did about an hour of switching back and forth. I tried without the sub, but eventually put it back in the chain because that's how I would use them. Very interesting and very different. I'll comment more as I have more time on them. The ATCs aren't broken in yet... So far, I notice that the ATCs (in comparison to the One 18s) seem to have a little smoother top - or maybe just not quite as bright on top...not sure that's a criticism of the One 18s, the ATCs just seem to be a little more relaxed. They seem to maybe be a little punchier in the 60-200Hz. Just seems a little more natural sounding. The Amphions seem to go lower (when I had the sub out I could really hear it.) I didn't really notice one having a bigger soundstage than the other, but it's hard to tell because they're not sitting in the same spot (I've had the Amphions on the inside). Where they're really different is in the mids. I'm still kinda figuring out how to explain it. My initial thought was that the ATCs seemed to not have as much fullness in the lower mids as the Amphions. When switching back to the ATCs, it was kind've like, "they sound scooped." But maybe the Amphions are forward there, not sure. Anyway, I'll confirm or deny some of this after using them for a little while. Just right off the bat, my initial reaction was that the Amphions sound more pleasing...Are the more true? I have no idea. I know that I've had really great translation with them (They're great! I should get new monitors...  ) I'm going to use the ATCs on the next few mixes I do to see if things fall into place even more easily. I'd love for the ATCs to work - I could sell the Amphions and make some scratch. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 24, 2017 15:58:39 GMT -6
What are the crossover points ? Have fun !
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Post by pope on Feb 24, 2017 16:03:45 GMT -6
Price-wise? Which ones are cheaper?
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 24, 2017 16:18:37 GMT -6
the one 18 are 3 grand usd and the atc are normally 2 but on sale for $18
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Post by pope on Feb 24, 2017 16:40:13 GMT -6
John, are you using the same amp on both pairs?
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 24, 2017 16:53:37 GMT -6
yes...It's a Lexicon NT212...which is a rebranded Bryston 3bst.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 24, 2017 17:02:06 GMT -6
This is tough. The ATCs definitely don't have as much top info as the Amphions. The seemed more relaxed and not as "tight." Don't really know how to explain it. Just gonna have to mix with them, because ultimately, it doesn't matter whether they sound pretty, it matters whether they translate.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Feb 24, 2017 18:00:57 GMT -6
I'm not suprised at Your reaction, but first I have a question have you shot both with pink noise and done any basic measurements and have you played with position at all?
I know John likes the sound of the aluminum dome in the Amphions, while it's not my cup of tea I get the attraction and this is where monitors are tricky, they all suck when compared to reality it's understanding what you can make work for you not what anybody else thinks.
I haven't had the chance to play with these new Little ATC's yet but yeah the midrange is what ATC is known for.
John don't fall for the "more mid" equals detail! It's a trap, and it's built a large group who thinks speakers like NS10's and Auratones that the whole reason for their place in the studio was to present the lowest common denominator are great mid range transducers because of the mid heavy presentation.
The great midrange shows itself on solo vocal and acustic instruments. Listen to voices you know beside your own, I know you have that bit of your own voice that irks you in some mics, and I don't want to see you biased by a speaker that presents it to your liking. The other side of this coin of course is if it presents it in a way that pleases you, will it make it easier for you to deal with things?
There is no set answer and brings us to Eric's 1st rule of Audio,
DON'T KNOCK WHAT WORKS ! That's the part that sucks and why There are at least 5 pairs of very different speakers in this house at all times, like politicians they all lie and we are left to figure out when they are lying and when they are being truthful, good luck!
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Post by reddirt on Feb 24, 2017 19:01:02 GMT -6
Great post ericn; nothing left to say really other than it will be interesting how you react after a couple of mixes JK.
Cheers, Ross
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 24, 2017 19:14:35 GMT -6
Well, the ATC doesn't seem to be nearly as prominent in that painful range of my voice. Strangely, it seems to reveal the tip top though. I wonder if the Amphions are exaggerating that area...only way to know if mix with them. It's kind of like the ATCs are Neve and the Amphions a John Hardy.
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 24, 2017 19:57:48 GMT -6
Its interesting that you are having this experience as as far as I know the amphion has a rolled off top end and I don't think that is true for the atc.
I am wondering what effect the waveguide and phase alignment of the amphion are having on your comparison.
The crossover points vary with the Amphion being 1600 and the ATC being at 2200.
I recall Anssi stating he thought this would let the amphion better represent the human voice.
Amphion one 18:
Operating principle: 2-way, passive radiator
Tweeter: 1" titanium
Mid / woofer: 6,5" aluminium
Crossover point: 1600 Hz
Impedance: 8 ohm
Sensitivity: 85 dB @ 2.83V/1m
Frequency response: 45 - 20 000 Hz +/-3dB
ATC 12:
Drivers: HF ATC 1˝/25mm dual suspension Soft Dome (SH25-76 6 Ohm)
LF ATC 6˝/150mm Constrained Layer Damping (CLD) (SB50-150CLD 8 Ohm)
Amplitude Linearity: 80Hz – 16kHz (+/-2dB)
Cut Off Frequencies: 56Hz – 22kHz (-6dB freestanding)
Dispersion: ±80° Coherent Horizontal, ±10° Coherent Vertical
Maximum Continuous SPL: 108dB (per pair @ 1m)
Crossover Frequency: 2.2kHz
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Feb 24, 2017 20:14:28 GMT -6
Great post ericn; nothing left to say really other than it will be interesting how you react after a couple of mixes JK. Cheers, Ross Thanks Ross. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Feb 24, 2017 20:19:24 GMT -6
Well, the ATC doesn't seem to be nearly as prominent in that painful range of my voice. Strangely, it seems to reveal the tip top though. I wonder if the Amphions are exaggerating that area...only way to know if mix with them. It's kind of like the ATCs are Neve and the Amphions a John Hardy. Well the only way to see if the hammer sits right in your hand is to pound some nails! Of course the obvious gear indulgent world is Borh! |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Feb 24, 2017 20:32:24 GMT -6
Its interesting that you are having this experience as as far as I know the amphion has a rolled off top end and I don't think that is true for the atc. I am wondering what effect the waveguide and phase alignment of the amphion are having on your comparison. The crossover points vary with the Amphion being 1600 and the ATC being at 2200. I recall Anssi stating he thought this would let the amphion better represent the human voice. Amphion one 18: Operating principle: 2-way, passive radiator Tweeter: 1" titanium Mid / woofer: 6,5" aluminium Crossover point: 1600 Hz Impedance: 8 ohm Sensitivity: 85 dB @ 2.83V/1m Frequency response: 45 - 20 000 Hz +/-3dB ATC 12: Drivers: HF ATC 1˝/25mm dual suspension Soft Dome (SH25-76 6 Ohm) LF ATC 6˝/150mm Constrained Layer Damping (CLD) (SB50-150CLD 8 Ohm) Amplitude Linearity: 80Hz – 16kHz (+/-2dB) Cut Off Frequencies: 56Hz – 22kHz (-6dB freestanding) Dispersion: ±80° Coherent Horizontal, ±10° Coherent Vertical Maximum Continuous SPL: 108dB (per pair @ 1m) Crossover Frequency: 2.2kHz In the beginning I said in John's little A-frame room with a bit of treatment, The waveguide would be an Advantage for the Amphions. 2 ways are always a real compromise when it comes to crossover point, your best bet to keep both drivers from pushing their limits is to cross them right in the middle of the voice range! More and more I'm happy to have a Decent 3 way full range system, I only wish I could afford the next step in Revealing speakers, those great mid domes of Volt and ATC SP ain't cheap! Hell the magnets Weigh more than many nearfields! Then we start Talking Tweeters like Transducer Labs Berillyum! Oh the fun! |
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 24, 2017 20:32:39 GMT -6
Its interesting that you are having this experience as as far as I know the amphion has a rolled off top end and I don't think that is true for the atc. I am wondering what effect the waveguide and phase alignment of the amphion are having on your comparison. The crossover points vary with the Amphion being 1600 and the ATC being at 2200. I recall Anssi stating he thought this would let the amphion better represent the human voice. Amphion one 18: Operating principle: 2-way, passive radiator Tweeter: 1" titanium Mid / woofer: 6,5" aluminium Crossover point: 1600 Hz Impedance: 8 ohm Sensitivity: 85 dB @ 2.83V/1m Frequency response: 45 - 20 000 Hz +/-3dB ATC 12: Drivers: HF ATC 1˝/25mm dual suspension Soft Dome (SH25-76 6 Ohm) LF ATC 6˝/150mm Constrained Layer Damping (CLD) (SB50-150CLD 8 Ohm) Amplitude Linearity: 80Hz – 16kHz (+/-2dB) Cut Off Frequencies: 56Hz – 22kHz (-6dB freestanding) Dispersion: ±80° Coherent Horizontal, ±10° Coherent Vertical Maximum Continuous SPL: 108dB (per pair @ 1m) Crossover Frequency: 2.2kHz Yeah - I guess when I say toppy I'm experiencing more 1-8kHz ish. That's definitely more prominent in the Amphions. To me, the Amphions can be a little bright. But they are great monitors. I did experience hearing more 10khz and up with the ATCs. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 25, 2017 5:09:18 GMT -6
Must admit I am getting more and more curious about 3 way monitors: peeps may have noticed that dynaudio has just released a new 3 way. I haven't seen any reviews and it will be a while before any get to Canada  |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Feb 25, 2017 8:42:48 GMT -6
I tend to push brightness in my mixes, so a brighter speaker helps keep me from pushing too far.
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Post by nick8801 on Feb 25, 2017 11:49:29 GMT -6
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on these two monitors Johnkenn. They are both on my shortlist of monitor upgrades when the time comes. Right now I have some Presonus Sceptre S6's, and they work great, but the hiss can get a little annoying as I have very sensitive ears. That's why i like passives. It's like all the music is coming from a black space. I think the Amphions will probably be the ones I end up with. Specifically the one 15's. Gonna go down to Alto music in Brooklyn one day this spring and shoot some out.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 25, 2017 13:55:23 GMT -6
After more listening (gonna start building and mixing a tune on the ATC's tonight)
The Amphions are definitely more forward in the 600Hz (ish) - 4 kHz area. Don't know if that's intended, don't know if that's more of the truth or what. But they definitely are. I'm listening to one of my favorite sounding records in a long time, Gregory Porter "Liquid Spirit." I've often thought that his voice could get a little painful at loudish volume listening. Always thought maybe it was just the mix. But everything about that recording and mixing job otherwise is just fantastic. Just a little painful (music isn't supposed to be painful) in a wide Q around the 1khz region when he really is belting. But when I switch over to the ATCs, there's no pain. Sounds maybe a little forward, but not that overtone/pain - kind've like you get when you solo/audition what a de-esser is cutting out in a signal. In the song "Musical Genocide," I can really hear this. It makes me think that this forwardness isn't at all what was intended...
The Amphions might have a little more separation - or wider soundstage - and they may seem to sound a little more exciting...but that would make sense if they are little more forward. These are just my ears in my room, so I'm not pretending to be king shit. Who knows, I could have shitty ears - but I don't think so. lol. I have noticed sometimes my mixes sound a little scooped of midrange - which would make sense if the Amphions are a little forward. So, as of right now, I think I'm leaning towards the ATCs...but maybe I'm talking myself/rationalizing my way into it. Again, the proof will be in the mixing.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Feb 25, 2017 14:04:48 GMT -6
After more listening (gonna start building and mixing a tune on the ATC's tonight) The Amphions are definitely more forward in the 600Hz (ish) - 4 kHz area. Don't know if that's intended, don't know if that's more of the truth or what. But they definitely are. I'm listening to one of my favorite sounding records in a long time, Gregory Porter "Liquid Spirit." I've often thought that his voice could get a little painful at loudish volume listening. Always thought maybe it was just the mix. But everything about that recording and mixing job otherwise is just fantastic. Just a little painful (music isn't supposed to be painful) in a wide Q around the 1khz region when he really is belting. But when I switch over to the ATCs, there's no pain. Sounds maybe a little forward, but not that overtone/pain - kind've like you get when you solo/audition what a de-esser is cutting out in a signal. In the song "Musical Genocide," I can really hear this. It makes me think that this forwardness isn't at all what was intended... The Amphions might have a little more separation - or wider soundstage - and they may seem to sound a little more exciting...but that would make sense if they are little more forward. These are just my ears in my room, so I'm not pretending to be king shit. Who knows, I could have shitty ears - but I don't think so. lol. I have noticed sometimes my mixes sound a little scooped of midrange - which would make sense if the Amphions are a little forward. So, as of right now, I think I'm leaning towards the ATCs...but maybe I'm talking myself/rationalizing my way into it. Again, the proof will be in the mixing. As I'm sitting mumbling I might need to try the baby ATC's Wife is screaming "not more speakers" No more fucking speakers!" |
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Post by ChaseUTB on Feb 25, 2017 14:28:08 GMT -6
After more listening (gonna start building and mixing a tune on the ATC's tonight) The Amphions are definitely more forward in the 600Hz (ish) - 4 kHz area. Don't know if that's intended, don't know if that's more of the truth or what. But they definitely are. I'm listening to one of my favorite sounding records in a long time, Gregory Porter "Liquid Spirit." I've often thought that his voice could get a little painful at loudish volume listening. Always thought maybe it was just the mix. But everything about that recording and mixing job otherwise is just fantastic. Just a little painful (music isn't supposed to be painful) in a wide Q around the 1khz region when he really is belting. But when I switch over to the ATCs, there's no pain. Sounds maybe a little forward, but not that overtone/pain - kind've like you get when you solo/audition what a de-esser is cutting out in a signal. In the song "Musical Genocide," I can really hear this. It makes me think that this forwardness isn't at all what was intended... The Amphions might have a little more separation - or wider soundstage - and they may seem to sound a little more exciting...but that would make sense if they are little more forward. These are just my ears in my room, so I'm not pretending to be king shit. Who knows, I could have shitty ears - but I don't think so. lol. I have noticed sometimes my mixes sound a little scooped of midrange - which would make sense if the Amphions are a little forward. So, as of right now, I think I'm leaning towards the ATCs...but maybe I'm talking myself/rationalizing my way into it. Again, the proof will be in the mixing. Get to Mixn man... no peep from you until you post two comparison mixes sir 😂😀 30 days will be up before you know it |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 25, 2017 17:16:51 GMT -6
Break the ATC's in longer, like 150-200 hours of fairly good banging, maybe use a Stereophile break-in disc like I do. There's often more to come with extensive break-in, even when we think they're finished.
Now, remember back when I first heard the Amphions and didn't like them? I got some pushback from saying they reminded me too much of the NS-10's. For me, it was a deja vu thing, just a gut reaction, nothing contemplated. I had no dog in the race and if anything, I was prepared to like them from people liking them whose opinions I respect. The forward mids are obviously part of why I referenced the NS-10's. It didn't take me a minute to know I preferred the ATC.
Give them a little more time John.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Feb 25, 2017 19:02:30 GMT -6
Break the ATC's in longer, like 150-200 hours of fairly good banging, maybe use a Stereophile break-in disc like I do. There's often more to come with extensive break-in, even when we think they're finished. Now, remember back when I first heard the Amphions and didn't like them? I got some pushback from saying they reminded me too much of the NS-10's. For me, it was a deja vu thing, just a gut reaction, nothing contemplated. I had no dog in the race and if anything, I was prepared to like them from people liking them whose opinions I respect. The forward mids are obviously part of why I referenced the NS-10's. It didn't take me a minute to know I preferred the ATC. Give them a little more time John. For me it was more Genelec 1030 / 1029, and 1029's still have a special place in my heart as one of my fave inexpensive powers monitors if midrange performance is more of a priority than lowend. Hey John which do you think work better with your sub? Intergration of a single sub without a separate comprehensive outboard cross is always an area of big compromises! |
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Post by swurveman on Feb 25, 2017 19:43:17 GMT -6
I tend to push brightness in my mixes, so a brighter speaker helps keep me from pushing too far. I am always cutting in the 2-5K range. I wonder if it's the speakers or mixing through converters....or both. I just can't stand anything harsh in that range and I find a lot of sources- vocals/acoustic guitars/electric guitars where I'm cutting.. |
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Post by ludwigvanbeartrap on Feb 25, 2017 20:20:56 GMT -6
There are at least 5 pairs of very different speakers in this house at all times, like politicians they all lie and we are left to figure out when they are lying and when they are being truthful, good luck! This is such great observation, and it is expressed as artfully as its truth deserves! btw, don't have much to add here, but I'm soaking all of it in. |
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) I'm going to use the ATCs on the next few mixes I do to see if things fall into place even more easily. I'd love for the ATCs to work - I could sell the Amphions and make some scratch. 
