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Post by gouge on Feb 14, 2017 15:52:53 GMT -6
I won't disagree but most of us won't ever need that capability, besides I'm guessing HDX is way beyond our OP's budget! If you want great it's not cheap. If you want cheap, it's almost certainly likely not great. I'm assuming that the op wanted zero or as close to it as possible latency. The answer is out there. It's not some esoteric question. You don't have to jump thru hoops, and slide stuff around, or find secret buffer settings, or update drivers or jump thru hoops with some complicated anti-creative workflow. It's just there. It works. And it's not that expensive if compared to the historic cost of gear over the last 20 years. It's only expensive if you compare to it to $149 DAW's hooked up to $499 AD/DA's. And the work flow makes life so much easier, you might actually find it CHEAPER in the long run.... My $0.02 - adjusted to $0.0000478325 for streaming royalties Or just use the lynx. 😉
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Post by gouge on Feb 14, 2017 16:18:01 GMT -6
I was thinking it may be helpful to transition this thread into a latency facts and figures thread.
It is simply not physically possible for converters no matter how expensive to have no latency.
I'm going to capture some screenshots of round trip latency tests on the lynx aurora and focusrite.
Both with and without daw offset. It would be good for others to do it. I'll list freq and buffer as well.
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Post by wiz on Feb 14, 2017 16:34:19 GMT -6
I don't know that suggesting other interfaces is going to help him much...8) basically recording offset is right. If you aren't changing sample rates, from session to session, it should stay the same... should....8) across the same inputs and outputs... e.g. the physical AD DA inputs/outpus will have a different offset than the ADAT IO as per my Motu 16A. It sounds to me, like a driver issue. Talk to focus rite support. cheers Wiz Yeah, either that or being locked inside a qldr during a heatwave. It was over 40. I'm going to set the offsett manyally and see what happens. The important thing, is that it shouldn't change, if you aren't changing sample rates. Let us know how you go... cheers Wiz
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Post by wiz on Feb 14, 2017 16:35:07 GMT -6
I was thinking I may be helpful to transition this thread into a latency facts and figures thread. It is simply not physically possible for converters no matter how expensive to have no latency. I'm going to capture some screenshots of round trip latency tests on the lynx aurora and focusrite. Both with and without daw offset. It would be good for others to do it. I'll list freq and buffer as well. There is a big thread, done by Vin Curigliano on the purple site.. he lives for this stuff... 8) cheers Wiz
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Post by mrholmes on Feb 14, 2017 16:59:17 GMT -6
I still don't understand the problem.
Once again: If one of your interfaces offers a direct monitoring option, that means your interface input will be routed to the HP output, you will get a super low tracking latency.
With RME (for example) its about 2 ms.
If you monitor your recorded signal through the DAW (SOFTWARE MONITORING), you always enter latency land depending on your DAWS buffer size and other factors.
Use the DAW only for playback/tracking, and the direct monitoring option, internal your interface, for all input signals which need a low latency.
I am sure the Lynx offers input to output routing like RME does?
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Post by ericn on Feb 14, 2017 18:11:36 GMT -6
Monitoring aside, recorded tracks always line up on playback. If they don't, it's an interface issue. Or the Russians hacked your session. 😁 Now that's the true Advantage to a system on a strange OS and not connected to the web!😀
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Post by drbill on Feb 14, 2017 18:25:41 GMT -6
If you want great it's not cheap. If you want cheap, it's almost certainly likely not great. I'm assuming that the op wanted zero or as close to it as possible latency. The answer is out there. It's not some esoteric question. You don't have to jump thru hoops, and slide stuff around, or find secret buffer settings, or update drivers or jump thru hoops with some complicated anti-creative workflow. It's just there. It works. And it's not that expensive if compared to the historic cost of gear over the last 20 years. It's only expensive if you compare to it to $149 DAW's hooked up to $499 AD/DA's. And the work flow makes life so much easier, you might actually find it CHEAPER in the long run.... My $0.02 - adjusted to $0.0000478325 for streaming royalties Or just use the lynx. 😉 Cool. Then thats your answer. Right?
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Post by mrholmes on Feb 14, 2017 18:46:47 GMT -6
Monitoring aside, recorded tracks always line up on playback. If they don't, it's an interface issue. Or the Russians hacked your session. 😁 Alternative fact: With a russian interface you also can fly to the moon....👊🏾
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Post by rowmat on Feb 14, 2017 18:53:36 GMT -6
Monitoring aside, recorded tracks always line up on playback. If they don't, it's an interface issue. Or the Russians hacked your session. 😁 Alternative fact: With a russian interface you also can fly to the moon....👊🏾 ...and their convertors are built entirely with Sovtek tubes.
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Post by gouge on Feb 14, 2017 20:16:14 GMT -6
I still don't understand the problem. Once again: If one of your interfaces offers a direct monitoring option, that means your interface input will be routed to the HP output, you will get a super low tracking latency. With RME (for example) its about 2 ms. If you monitor your recorded signal through the DAW (SOFTWARE MONITORING), you always enter latency land depending on your DAWS buffer size and other factors. Use the DAW only for playback/tracking, and the direct monitoring option, internal your interface, for all input signals which need a low latency. I am sure the Lynx offers input to output routing like RME does? we are not talking about the direct monitoring we are talking about recorded file latency and the latency of tracking to something previously recorded in respect to the click. this manifests itself with musicians not being able to lock to the click easily. because some of the already recorded parts are very subtly out of sync.
it's like this.
you record to your click. there is typically varying levels of latency in digital converters depending on how they are connected to your computer. the daw measures this latency in the background and moves the recorded track back by an amount in milliseconds once it writes it to your project. so your recorded track should be aligned to the click. in the daw this is all automatic.
but lets say it's not 100% accurate. your recorded track ends up out of sync by 3.6ms
when you overdub there is a 3.6ms difference between your click and the tracks you are playing along to not including playback latency issues. say the musician is also swinging 2ms here and there and now you are talking 5-6ms out.
as you record your overdubs the same cycle is at play so the new overdub is now out potentially 10-12ms to the click. keep that cycle going and things stop sounding tight and the accumulated latency makes it impossible for artists to lock onto the click.
this is the case with all daws and converters. none are perfect.
some people so as to avoid this outcome measure the round trip of a click sound and manually enter this time in milliseconds into their daw under the offset feature.
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Post by gouge on Feb 14, 2017 20:23:20 GMT -6
Cool. Then thats your answer. Right? I'm not keen on taking the lynx out of the studio.
just because the focusrite is not currently singing doesn't mean it can't so i'll try a few things
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Post by mrholmes on Feb 14, 2017 20:35:01 GMT -6
I still don't understand the problem. Once again: If one of your interfaces offers a direct monitoring option, that means your interface input will be routed to the HP output, you will get a super low tracking latency. With RME (for example) its about 2 ms. If you monitor your recorded signal through the DAW (SOFTWARE MONITORING), you always enter latency land depending on your DAWS buffer size and other factors. Use the DAW only for playback/tracking, and the direct monitoring option, internal your interface, for all input signals which need a low latency. I am sure the Lynx offers input to output routing like RME does? we are not talking about the direct monitoring we are talking about recorded file latency and the latency of tracking to something previously recorded in respect to the click. this manifests itself with musicians not being able to lock to the click easily. because some of the already recorded parts are very subtly out of sync.
it's like this.
you record to your click. there is typically varying levels of latency in digital converters depending on how they are connected to your computer. the daw measures this latency in the background and moves the recorded track back by an amount in milliseconds once it writes it to your project. so your recorded track should be aligned to the click. in the daw this is all automatic.
but lets say it's not 100% accurate. your recorded track ends up out of sync by 3.6ms
when you overdub there is a 3.6ms difference between your click and the tracks you are playing along to not including playback latency issues. say the musician is also swinging 2ms here and there and now you are talking 5-6ms out.
as you record your overdubs the same cycle is at play so the new overdub is now out potentially 10-12ms to the click. keep that cycle going and things stop sounding tight and the accumulated latency makes it impossible for artists to lock onto the click.
this is the case with all daws and converters. none are perfect.
some people so as to avoid this outcome measure the round trip of a click sound and manually enter this time in milliseconds into their daw under the offset feature.
Sorry I never had such problems with a native DAW [logic]. If I use direct monitoring and the click runs and The Band nails the click the daw writes the file like it was played. It works with full blown sessions if you get used to the workflow its flawless like an HD Rig. My mentor sold his HD rig because of those new direct monitoring features. My gueswork is y r doing something wrong, or there is something wrong with the drivers, or the firmware.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Feb 14, 2017 20:45:52 GMT -6
No issues here with my Focusrite, Tascam, Midas, or Svartbox conversion in Pro Tools Native. Everything is syncing as it should FWIW.
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Post by mrholmes on Feb 14, 2017 20:57:48 GMT -6
No issues here with my Focusrite, Tascam, Midas, or Svartbox conversion in Pro Tools Native. Everything is syncing as it should FWIW. one more reason to update firmware, drivers and os....
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Post by gouge on Feb 14, 2017 21:49:36 GMT -6
yeah I'm gonna test it to find out the root of the cause. there is also a usb hub linKing everything together. I wonder if that is the problem.
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Post by popmann on Feb 14, 2017 22:42:04 GMT -6
I have 100 thoughts on this....99 of which you may not appreciate. So, let me give you the bandaid and diagnostic tool for the alleged problem:
1- record the click as an audio track. (let's say that's track 41 in your 40 track opus) 2- make sure that recording is "lined up" to Reaper's grid to your satisfaction 3- send it out to the musicians, and simultaneously ANALOG loop out and back into re-record it on track 42 4- if after the take, 41 and 42 don't line up, you have a compensation issue, and you select all the tracks you just recorded INCLUDING that (42) click, and move using 41 as reference. All move at the same time thus by the same amount. Manually, you've just compensated for a broken app.
This assumes that LIVE their playing is locked RIGHT in the pocket like you want and they want....and PLAYBACK it's no longer there. If the problem is they're having trouble locking in--that's got NOTHING to do with the app's compensation, and everything to do with the monitor feed of themselves.
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 15, 2017 22:44:26 GMT -6
I dont understand the question, we talk tracking latency? If yes does not the focusrite has a sort of direct monitoring like RME. Thats cool with RME I just have to deal with 2 ms latency in tracking... love it. yes we are talking tracking latency not monitor latency. monitoring is latency free. however when doing overdubs the monitor latency from previously recorded parts can bite. inside a daw is an algo that measure the latency and adjusts to suit. I've found that amount in the focusrite/surface pro setup to be unreliable. what is recommended is to measure the round trip latency and fix that figure into your daw settings and avoid auto calculate. to be honest, the lynx has some latency. I hear it when I build up songs using overdubs. but it's so small I ignore it. tracking then entire band live avoids the issue. I am certain the hdx has it also. what has thrown me with the focusrite is the amount of latency seems to vary depending on session. If I'm not mistaken, the "latency" measurement/calculation in most, if not all DAWs refers to SOFTWARE LATENCY ONLY, not hardware. Hardware latency must be added to this figure to get a true report of the total system latency. How could a DAW measure converter latency? It's outside the DAW's loop.
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 15, 2017 22:48:08 GMT -6
Alternative fact: With a russian interface you also can fly to the moon....👊🏾 ...and their convertors are built entirely with Sovtek tubes. If you don't blow up on the launch pad. There's a reason the Soviets never gave advance notice or live coverage of their moon shots.
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Post by rowmat on Feb 15, 2017 22:53:56 GMT -6
I can't speak for other DAW software but Reaper has its own hardware insert plugin called Reainsert which can be used to ping (out and back) via the convertors DA>AD and then measure the latency.
You can either set the latency compensation manually by entering the calculated figure or have Reaper determine and adjust the for the latency automatically.
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Post by wiz on Feb 15, 2017 23:03:46 GMT -6
yes we are talking tracking latency not monitor latency. monitoring is latency free. however when doing overdubs the monitor latency from previously recorded parts can bite. inside a daw is an algo that measure the latency and adjusts to suit. I've found that amount in the focusrite/surface pro setup to be unreliable. what is recommended is to measure the round trip latency and fix that figure into your daw settings and avoid auto calculate. to be honest, the lynx has some latency. I hear it when I build up songs using overdubs. but it's so small I ignore it. tracking then entire band live avoids the issue. I am certain the hdx has it also. what has thrown me with the focusrite is the amount of latency seems to vary depending on session. If I'm not mistaken, the "latency" measurement/calculation in most, if not all DAWs refers to SOFTWARE LATENCY ONLY, not hardware. Hardware latency must be added to this figure to get a true report of the total system latency. How could a DAW measure converter latency? It's outside the DAW's loop. RME does.... it reports it to the DAW .... Doesn't pro tools HD do this as well? cheers Wiz
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 15, 2017 23:50:17 GMT -6
If I'm not mistaken, the "latency" measurement/calculation in most, if not all DAWs refers to SOFTWARE LATENCY ONLY, not hardware. Hardware latency must be added to this figure to get a true report of the total system latency. How could a DAW measure converter latency? It's outside the DAW's loop. RME does.... it reports it to the DAW .... Doesn't pro tools HD do this as well? cheers Wiz I don't use Pro tools so I don't know. How does RME handle reporting latency to the DAW? It must use its own measurement routines that are separate from those built into the DAW, right?
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Post by gouge on Feb 16, 2017 0:51:33 GMT -6
the way to do it is the same way to setup tape.
you send a click out through the converters and back in. then measure the gap in the daw session an manually write in the amount.
most daws have the automatic compensation working in the background. I think rme has some method of including the hardware in that calc. there is an rme paper on it.
they talk about the multiple layer of latency that occur. it gets worse when you have multiple interfaces connected and outboard hubs.
whilst I'm happy with the lynx converters I've often thought I should manually enter the figure so it's spot on.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Feb 16, 2017 3:35:37 GMT -6
Have you enabled delay compensation? This will place the recorded file correctly On the timeline for playback l ( or supposed too ). Have to say it sounds the the interface needs new drivers or is faulty. Even with delay compensation disabled and a playback buffer of 128 samples it's still doable and 64 is not an issue and I'm 32 bit pt 10.3.1 on a 2012 MBP and the tracks " line up " on the grid with others as well as play back. Apollo - PT - MBP running Lion. Not sure if this was helpful or not, I hope you find the cause and solve the issues so you can get up and running smoothly.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2017 6:30:31 GMT -6
I still don't understand the problem. Once again: If one of your interfaces offers a direct monitoring option, that means your interface input will be routed to the HP output, you will get a super low tracking latency. With RME (for example) its about 2 ms. If you monitor your recorded signal through the DAW (SOFTWARE MONITORING), you always enter latency land depending on your DAWS buffer size and other factors. Use the DAW only for playback/tracking, and the direct monitoring option, internal your interface, for all input signals which need a low latency. I am sure the Lynx offers input to output routing like RME does? we are not talking about the direct monitoring we are talking about recorded file latency and the latency of tracking to something previously recorded in respect to the click. this manifests itself with musicians not being able to lock to the click easily. because some of the already recorded parts are very subtly out of sync.
it's like this.
you record to your click. there is typically varying levels of latency in digital converters depending on how they are connected to your computer. the daw measures this latency in the background and moves the recorded track back by an amount in milliseconds once it writes it to your project. so your recorded track should be aligned to the click. in the daw this is all automatic.
but lets say it's not 100% accurate. your recorded track ends up out of sync by 3.6ms
when you overdub there is a 3.6ms difference between your click and the tracks you are playing along to not including playback latency issues. say the musician is also swinging 2ms here and there and now you are talking 5-6ms out.
as you record your overdubs the same cycle is at play so the new overdub is now out potentially 10-12ms to the click. keep that cycle going and things stop sounding tight and the accumulated latency makes it impossible for artists to lock onto the click.
this is the case with all daws and converters. none are perfect.
some people so as to avoid this outcome measure the round trip of a click sound and manually enter this time in milliseconds into their daw under the offset feature.
If your recorded tracks do not line up and have "harddisk latency issues" - different offsets without changing interface settings - the interfaces hardware/firmware/driver is BROKEN. Recording latency should be a non-issue. Using high sample rates makes much less latency at same buffer size since we gone double speed, and if your interface really has too much latency for live recording, say, with USB interfaces and trouble to set low buffer sizes, and this ONLY matters for live monitoring thru the DAW, you can still do it the old fashioned way and monitor *analog* with a console. Makes recording latency a non-issue for sure.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2017 7:11:34 GMT -6
yeah I'm gonna test it to find out the root of the cause. there is also a usb hub linKing everything together. I wonder if that is the problem. Ditch it and see. These things were causing havoc for line 6 users some time ago.
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