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Post by indiehouse on Dec 21, 2017 8:30:58 GMT -6
Also, I threw up the REDD and a KM84 on an acoustic last night. It was hands down the KM84 for me. There was more body to it, which cut brilliantly. Not that the REDD sounded bad, but it sounded close and fuller in the low mid range, while being sparkly on top. The KM84 just had this mid range body thing going on that brought out the harmonic content better and more clearer. It didn't fight the vocal.
So I guess I'm an SDC guy on acoustics, which leaves me wanting a tube LDC mainly for vocal duties. I gotta say, I spent some time last night creating hardware chains for the Upton, REDD and MKU67. Man, I had really dialed in that MKU67. It sounded freakin' awesome. I think I preferred it to the detail rich sound of the REDD, and it was really opposite of the airy 251. Makes me think a MKU67 and a 251 would be a killer combo.
One more thing, I think the REDD would kill as a drum mic. I bet it'd sound amazing on a kit in a good sounding room. That full, rich low end, with that detailed but smooth top would be super sweet.
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 21, 2017 8:55:56 GMT -6
I don’t think of rolled off lows when I think of 251s. You should hear Jeff’s original. It’s huge and somewhat rolled off on top. In fact, I think I might have a file that I sang on his. Might sing the same thing on mine and post them. That's what I thought. The Upton does have a lot less low end (or maybe low-mids is the more accurate range) than the REDD and the Bock is way more extended and weighty in the low end. I also found this blurb from a TapeOp interview with David Bock where he describes that the original 251 circuit was designed to take away some bass of the CK12 capsule. TapeOp: When you're doing something like the 251, how close do you feel you get to the original Telefunken (Made by AKG in Vienna, Austria) ELA M 251 microphone? David Bock: Our goal with the 251 was always meant to be my enhanced version of a 251. CK12 capsules are a wonderfully unique capsule that almost always have a unique flat mid-range and are capable of a tremendous amount of low end. The original 251 had a lot of devices in the amplifier to take that bass away. I decided I didn't like that. If I want a high pass filter I'll do it at the console. I eliminated those elements and extended the bandwith down to 5 Hz. So the capsule is a version of the CK12. They have a flatter midrange, from 3 to 5 kHz than most of the AKG capsules. It's a nice, high-end frequency peak - it's not over the top. Kind of why I ended up having Shannon putting in another capsule...but more low end could be dialed in.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Dec 21, 2017 10:33:05 GMT -6
Interesting thoughts indiehouse. That's exactly what I liked about the REDD. My most compatible mic to date has been a vintage U67. In a shootout I did in a high end studio, the vintage M49, U47 and C12 didn't have the impact the 67 did with me singing. The 67 just sounded huge, and intimate. The main thing that makes me feel good when singing is the mic's pickup pattern. A dozen mics can be called cardioid, but they all have a different pickup range.
All the Neumann's I've used get it right, they're bigger than other mics, yet remain perfectly focused. The REDD was like the 67, maybe even a little bigger. That works for me because I'd rather have that size, even if it gives me a little more room sound than I'd like in my NYC apartment.
I had a Bock Audio 195 for a couple of weeks, it sounded great on acoustic guitar, but for vocals, the pickup pattern was too wide, it felt like it was almost an omni pattern, even though it was cardioid, and I was uncomfortable singing.
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Post by john on Dec 21, 2017 10:57:19 GMT -6
admittedly I'm not as fussy as most but I got mine about a week ago and I'm happy with the sound and build. here are my first impressions.
first song I worked on had the redd as a mono overhead. as the only drum mic for the song. using dark cymbals as I normally do and a rogers dynasonic. the rolls I was playing were more clearer than any mic I have used before. I could hear each time the stick hit the head versus a few of my previous mics that turned quick snare rolls/drags into blurs. so right from the start I'm thinking wow this mic is sensitive. the dynasonic is also a sensitive snare so they made a great pair. I had it about 1 foot up from my forehead and a moderate gain level in the cardioid pattern. the hi hat was brighter than I am used to (coming from working with ribbons) but it wasn't annoyingly bright like the mics that made me stick to ribbons to begin with. nice and crispy. the kick cut through with ease sounding like a nicely wrapped ball of thunder. I ran this track into the rs124 with almost no GR and from there through my pultec with a bump at 60hz and 5K and also a cut at 20k to taste. then hit the mid pultec for some additional 200hz. these choices mainly based on the so-so acoustics from my room. put my akg bx10 on aux and brought in some dark tail with most high freq cut off. not gonna use a lot of adjectives but just damn. after using ribbons so long its like hearing a hi-fi version of myself without the thumbs-down high frequencies my mind always associates with condensers. similar to the Zener I can see this mic gaining a notable association with drums. is wade a drummer? serious question if any one knows.
next was the bass. I have a 57 avri p-bass and 59 bassman ltd. the p-bass has the 52 labella flats. this combination is dreamy as hell for me and the sound I go for. I put the redd about 3 feet away from the center of the amp and dialed in a heavy-on-the-mid-range tone. low amp volume but high mic gain. picked away at it until I was satisfied with the performance with little thought towards what the mic was doing. so it was a bit of surprise on playback that the bass was as thick and creamy as it was. it totally filled the room. I honestly didn't even try any science, I just put the mic in place and zoned out. granted the chain is a beautiful thing but the mic captured that mid tone perfectly while not missing any of the ass it was putting out. again, sent that into the rs124 and let that work its bass magic. big bump on pultec 3k to bring out the pick a bit. total mind fuck of a sound. really just sat and listened to that over and over for awhile.
I finished the song with guitar and mellotron (piano & violins) all amped and mic'ed with the redd. it is 100% redd. if this song ever gets anywhere I'll be sure to come back and reference it with audio. I had been using a 4038 with the redd 47 pre but was looking for a change. looking forward to getting some vocalists in soon.
its certainly the most expensive gear I've ever bought since most things I pick up used. even my curve bender I got a smoking deal on. because I already had scored a used redd 47 preamp a few years back I was able to look it at more like trading the pre and adding the mic. after that the sticker shock wasn't as crazy. of course the options for mics are endless and growing every day but I've had some of my biggest revelation using Chandler gear and had great experiences with the support side. I highly recommend.
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Post by indiehouse on Dec 21, 2017 11:12:56 GMT -6
That's what I thought. The Upton does have a lot less low end (or maybe low-mids is the more accurate range) than the REDD and the Bock is way more extended and weighty in the low end. I also found this blurb from a TapeOp interview with David Bock where he describes that the original 251 circuit was designed to take away some bass of the CK12 capsule. TapeOp: When you're doing something like the 251, how close do you feel you get to the original Telefunken (Made by AKG in Vienna, Austria) ELA M 251 microphone? David Bock: Our goal with the 251 was always meant to be my enhanced version of a 251. CK12 capsules are a wonderfully unique capsule that almost always have a unique flat mid-range and are capable of a tremendous amount of low end. The original 251 had a lot of devices in the amplifier to take that bass away. I decided I didn't like that. If I want a high pass filter I'll do it at the console. I eliminated those elements and extended the bandwith down to 5 Hz. So the capsule is a version of the CK12. They have a flatter midrange, from 3 to 5 kHz than most of the AKG capsules. It's a nice, high-end frequency peak - it's not over the top. Kind of why I ended up having Shannon putting in another capsule...but more low end could be dialed in. Have you heard the ADK 251?
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 21, 2017 11:30:11 GMT -6
I think so - at that little shootout we did a year or so ago. I remember we all thought it sounded pretty fantastic.
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Post by indiehouse on Dec 21, 2017 13:21:19 GMT -6
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Post by rowmat on Dec 21, 2017 20:44:21 GMT -6
The first thing I noticed when we got our Bock 251 was how big the low end was. The original 251's tend to be regarded as somewhat bright mics. The Bock doesn't come across as particularly bright as its low end is the first thing that hits you if you aren't expecting it.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Dec 21, 2017 21:19:11 GMT -6
In the Vintage King shootout I linked earlier, I picked the Telefunken U47 first, the Bock 251 second, and the Manley Reference third. There's no doubt the Bock's a killer mic. So we're at the same place again, they're all so good, it's the personal fit that counts. As expensive as the Chandler is, it's a great price relative to the vintage classics and the Bock 251. Having the REDD 47 preamp built in is a huge bonus, you can always turn it down and use another preamp, and the Drive switch really works brilliantly. Most mics that come with switches to change the tone don't usually sound very good in those other modes, but the Chandler's Drive mode is like giving your mic an injection of rocket fuel, it's really cool.
Would I choose the Chandler REDD over a Bock 251, I don't know because I never tried the Bock.
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Post by rowmat on Dec 21, 2017 21:41:48 GMT -6
In the Vintage King shootout I linked earlier, I picked the Telefunken U47 first, the Bock 251 second, and the Manley Reference third. There's no doubt the Bock's a killer mic. So we're at the same place again, they're all so good, it's the personal fit that counts. As expensive as the Chandler is, it's a great price relative to the vintage classics and the Bock 251. Having the REDD 47 preamp built in is a huge bonus, you can always turn it down and use another preamp, and the Drive switch really works brilliantly. Most mics that come with switches to change the tone don't usually sound very good in those other modes, but the Chandler's Drive mode is like giving your mic an injection of rocket fuel, it's really cool. Would I choose the Chandler REDD over a Bock 251, I don't know because I never tried the Bock. No doubt the Redd's built in preamp makes it additionally attractive in terms of not having to fork out another $1k to $3k for a preamp. The V76m channel of our Mercury Bruder preamp is the most used female vox preamp in our arsenal and makes our Flea 47 work amazingly well on most female vox (where it would be a bit too aggressive say with a Neve or especially an API) but that's $5k's worth of pre (along with the other V72s channel as well) which effectively doubles the total mic/pre combo to $10k assuming the mic used is around the $5k mark. We have to be able to cater for a wide style of singers so 'one size fits all' is nice from a cost outlay but doesn't work in practice. That's why I chose the Mercury Bruder as it gives two distinct (and great tube preamps) in one package and allows us to really tailor the sound of our mics.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Dec 22, 2017 8:38:05 GMT -6
If someone wants a Neve sound, just turn down the REDD.
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Post by Mister Chase on Dec 22, 2017 15:28:12 GMT -6
'Zactly. I hear differences, but I also hear how close they are. And in some cases I'm sure I would prefer the ADK. My z-67 shows up tomorrow. I am really pining for a 251 already. I never wanted a 251 or c12 copy as all of them in my budget came across as harsh compared to the originals. The ADK seems to be the exception. Time to save up. Continue, gentlemen.
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Post by indiehouse on Dec 22, 2017 15:40:45 GMT -6
'Zactly. I hear differences, but I also hear how close they are. And in some cases I'm sure I would prefer the ADK. My z-67 shows up tomorrow. I am really pining for a 251 already. I never wanted a 251 or c12 copy as all of them in my budget came across as harsh compared to the originals. The ADK seems to be the exception. Time to save up. Continue, gentlemen. Let me know your thoughts on the Z67!
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Post by Mister Chase on Dec 22, 2017 16:06:26 GMT -6
'Zactly. I hear differences, but I also hear how close they are. And in some cases I'm sure I would prefer the ADK. My z-67 shows up tomorrow. I am really pining for a 251 already. I never wanted a 251 or c12 copy as all of them in my budget came across as harsh compared to the originals. The ADK seems to be the exception. Time to save up. Continue, gentlemen. Let me know your thoughts on the Z67! I most certainly will!
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Post by indiehouse on Dec 24, 2017 13:28:24 GMT -6
I've been trying to position the REDD at around a foot out to cut down on it picking up my room much. The lows get to be too much and it gets a little sibilant. So I positioned the mic above the singer (hanging upside down) and leaning back a bit. I also am running a low end roll off via a Pultec style HW EQ. It's very smooth in he mids and open sounding. There's definitely some sparkle on top, yet still not 'bright'. There's no air like a 251, so I've been trying to add some air via the EQ without getting into the sibilance range.
I've been throwing up some other mics to compare. I put up my GZ47FET V. Man! That's such a great mic, especially with a touch of EQ. In doing these critical listening tests and comparisons, I feel like I'm rediscovering some hidden gems in my locker.
The question remains, is the REDD worth the $$$ over the mics I already have?
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 24, 2017 13:52:44 GMT -6
Only you can decide that ?!
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Post by ragan on Dec 24, 2017 14:09:39 GMT -6
I've been trying to position the REDD at around a foot out to cut down on it picking up my room much. The lows get to be too much and it gets a little sibilant. So I positioned the mic above the singer (hanging upside down) and leaning back a bit. I also am running a low end roll off via a Pultec style HW EQ. It's very smooth in he mids and open sounding. There's definitely some sparkle on top, yet still not 'bright'. There's no air like a 251, so I've been trying to add some air via the EQ without getting into the sibilance range. I've been throwing up some other mics to compare. I put up my GZ47FET V. Man! That's such a great mic, especially with a touch of EQ. In doing these critical listening tests and comparisons, I feel like I'm rediscovering some hidden gems in my locker. The question remains, is the REDD worth the $$$ over the mics I already have? I always wanted to try a GZ47Fet V.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Dec 25, 2017 8:53:29 GMT -6
I'm trying to mix and master my demo of a Christmas song I wrote today. It's not orchestrated the way I would have liked, but otherwise, it'll be another year before it's timely. I used the Candler REDD on the vocal track. It occurred to me that I sang closer to pitch than with any other mic I've ever used. Now to be honest, I haven't spent as much time with a vintage U67 to say the REDD was "better", but it's definitely worth noting. No autotune needed. Something about the sound of the REDD enabled me to hear myself better with cans on. I can't say what factors made it so, only that it happened on every track I did, and I managed four lead vocal tracks before sending it back to Alto Music.
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Post by thehightenor on Dec 25, 2017 10:53:00 GMT -6
I'm trying to mix and master my demo of a Christmas song I wrote today. It's not orchestrated the way I would have liked, but otherwise, it'll be another year before it's timely. I used the Candler REDD on the vocal track. It occurred to me that I sang closer to pitch than with any other mic I've ever used. Now to be honest, I haven't spent as much time with a vintage U67 to say the REDD was "better", but it's definitely worth noting. No autotune needed. Something about the sound of the REDD enabled me to hear myself better with cans on. I can't say what factors made it so, only that it happened on every track I did, and I managed four lead vocal tracks before sending it back to Alto Music. As regards better pitch - out of interest did you stand a little bit further back with the REDD than you would normally with an LDC?
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 25, 2017 11:15:38 GMT -6
The first thing I noticed when we got our Bock 251 was how big the low end was. The original 251's tend to be regarded as somewhat bright mics. The Bock doesn't come across as particularly bright as its low end is the first thing that hits you if you aren't expecting it. View AttachmentWeird. Maybe that’s why I initially didn’t love the low end on the Upton. All the Vintage 251s I’ve heard had really big bottoms.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Dec 25, 2017 11:25:08 GMT -6
I like big bottoms ;-)
Thehightenor, I recorded the same way I always do, but I'm not the type to eat the mic, I stay from 18" to 2' generally.
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Post by aremos on Dec 25, 2017 11:25:50 GMT -6
John, But then later you came to like it? Was that after the capsule tweak? BTW, and maybe it's been talked about already, but was the Shannon work done on Dallas's capsule or was it a different capsule?
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Post by Martin John Butler on Dec 25, 2017 13:01:14 GMT -6
Aremos, I think we're on different pages :-) I was referring to the Chandler Redd mic I had on loan here for a week. I do have a couple of mics in the closet I plan to ask Shannon to take a look at, but that won't be for a while.
I've been using the Soyuz 0-19 FET for my tracks for a while now. The 0-19 is a serious alternative to the Neumann U87, and it's no less great IMO.
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Post by aremos on Dec 25, 2017 13:25:30 GMT -6
Martin, sorry for the confusion. The question was for JohnKenn as per his initial reaction to the Upton's low end.
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 25, 2017 16:15:27 GMT -6
John, But then later you came to like it? Was that after the capsule tweak? BTW, and maybe it's been talked about already, but was the Shannon work done on Dallas's capsule or was it a different capsule? I decided to put a custom capsule in. I think I had one of the first prototypes, so from what understand they’re pretty amazing now. I’m over the moon about mine with Shannon ‘s capsule in it.
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