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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 28, 2017 15:54:29 GMT -6
People are jumping ship on these like crazy...I'd really love to have one in hand to compare to my BF Apollo...
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Post by jeromemason on Jan 28, 2017 16:15:31 GMT -6
Didn't you have one before your Apollo?
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jan 28, 2017 18:21:31 GMT -6
People are jumping ship on these like crazy...I'd really love to have one in hand to compare to my BF Apollo... Selling them for low prices? Or buying them up? I know the 2x6 card is the same from the mk1 and fits in the mk2 chassis and the DAC is the same Chips and circuitry with an "analog output driver" ( what is this? ) I know they only make certain mk2 converter card configurations ( 8 x 8 & 16 x 16 ). The mk1 is notorious for horribly loud fan noise that ramps up and continues to stay at max speed. Other than that and the heat issue frying certain parts inside the unit ( 4 or 5 cases I read ) everyone loves their mk1... From Apogee: "The original Symphony I/O modules had all-new D/A's and A/D's that were basically refined from the AD/DA16X, so this brings the A/D converters straight into 2016. The specs and fidelity on the MkII modules are the best of any product we've ever released." ( speaking on mk2 ad he mk1 ) "Symphony I/O MK II’s D/A section has been optimized with a more powerful, robust analog output driver. This newly designed high current, low impedance circuit is capable of driving virtually any input with absolutely no decrease in performance, regardless of the load presented by the connected gear." " The analog stage uses the same fully differential op-amps as found in the original Symphony I/O, but now in a circuit precisely streamlined to provide the most transparent path to the A/D stage possible. A Dual Sum A/D stage – where two conversion stages are summed for each analog channel – offers the lowest distortion and greatest dynamic range of any A/D converter we’ve ever designed." "For the "MKII" converters, you're looking at all-new A/D's and the same basic D/A's (yes, still ESS Sabre32 D/A's) with some layout refinements and a new output driver." |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 28, 2017 18:43:20 GMT -6
People are selling them super cheap.
Yes, I had one. Never had them side by side so not sure which one sounds better.
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Post by ragan on Jan 28, 2017 18:49:26 GMT -6
Yeah they're coming down a lot. I've been eyeing them too.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Jan 28, 2017 19:43:10 GMT -6
My buddies place has had to send 2 of them back to the factory to be refurbed after being burnt out.
They were really good about overnighting a loaner unit both times to minimize downtime at his studio.
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 28, 2017 19:55:55 GMT -6
I'd rather save up the coin to get the MKII than invest in old tech.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2017 20:09:06 GMT -6
I owned one when they were released but within a year happily went back to my 16x units with Thunderbridge.
I just preferred or was use to the lower mids / low end and less high highs, especially spread over 16 channels of the DA.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 28, 2017 20:40:38 GMT -6
My GC Pro guy was like "dude, I really don't like the way hey sound" (about the MKII when they first came out...which surprised me because he's a salesman.
I will say that from my memory - but this was with a different set of monitors - my perception of the Symphony Mimi is that it was more big bottomed, smooth top and the Apollo bf more pristine. But again, we are only talking DA and there's no way to really judge that fairly unless you have them side by side.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Jan 29, 2017 1:44:44 GMT -6
I've heard from users who had both the MK1 and the MK2 that they liked how the MK1 sounded more, as well. I'd love to hear them side by side. I'm sure the lack of fan noise would sway me tho lol
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2017 4:57:20 GMT -6
They are awesome for sure, although (going from memory here) the MK1 didn't sound much better than my MOTU 1248. The mid range / upper end market is getting very tight, checking spec's etc. the differences between multi I/O converters at the $1500.00+ range and even the new Symphony wouldn't be enough to sway me. It's obviously pure speculation on my part as I've never owned a BF Apollo, but I can't imagine the Symphony MK1 being better.
If I upgrade again at some point, I'll be looking for the best latency / rock solid drivers etc.
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Post by mjheck on Jan 29, 2017 9:04:01 GMT -6
Random side note: it's been years since I had a Symphony, so I don't recall exactly, but I thought the fan could be disabled via the software interface. Perhaps that also explains the failure rate, if end users are allowed to turn off something this is important and needed.
No insight on I vs. II.
MJH
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jan 30, 2017 11:59:02 GMT -6
Dude.... doesn't everyone know on RGO that the Symphony is the best converter known to mankind.... 😭😂
On the other hand I have have seen where people have had the same issues ( handful prob not high %, but enough to know it's a design issue ) with their Symphony however Apogee made them pay for repairs and shipping and there was no loaner unit for downtime...
I agree that the mk2 would be the better buy at this point due to the known fan noise problems and the overheating issues that are documented. Plus I heard somewhere the Symphony mk2 present a more in depth audio capture with more clarity by the converter design being aimed towards transparency...
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Post by veggieryan on Jan 30, 2017 12:22:13 GMT -6
They are awesome for sure, although (going from memory here) the MK1 didn't sound much better than my MOTU 1248. The mid range / upper end market is getting very tight, checking spec's etc. the differences between multi I/O converters at the $1500.00+ range and even the new Symphony wouldn't be enough to sway me. It's obviously pure speculation on my part as I've never owned a BF Apollo, but I can't imagine the Symphony MK1 being better. If I upgrade again at some point, I'll be looking for the best latency / rock solid drivers etc. Huh? If you listen to a Symphony MK1 side by side with a BF Apollo the Apollo sounds like a toy. There is more to a converter than just the chips. The clocking, circuit layout, and the analog sections are very important. That is where the Apollo falls short. Also, the fan on a Symphony MK1 never comes on unless you have 2 modules running max channels in both slots. Since they are so cheap now I just have 2 chassis running one card each. The fans never come on and you get 4 quality headphone amps for cue mixes. The step up in conversion has made a huge difference in my recordings to the point I also bought a JCF AD8 which is another step up from the Symphony AD and next will be a Dangerous Convert 8 to step up the DA... worth every penny. I wish I had listened to the advice I was given years ago to stop wasting time on mediocre converters. I now use a Motu 112D as the interface with the Symphonies in standalone mode and the Apollo is now on special FX duty via aux buses on ADAT from the Motu mixer. No more dilly-dallying with the limitations of non-flexible routing in the UAD console. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 30, 2017 12:24:16 GMT -6
A toy...nice.
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Post by ragan on Jan 30, 2017 12:27:01 GMT -6
They are awesome for sure, although (going from memory here) the MK1 didn't sound much better than my MOTU 1248. The mid range / upper end market is getting very tight, checking spec's etc. the differences between multi I/O converters at the $1500.00+ range and even the new Symphony wouldn't be enough to sway me. It's obviously pure speculation on my part as I've never owned a BF Apollo, but I can't imagine the Symphony MK1 being better. If I upgrade again at some point, I'll be looking for the best latency / rock solid drivers etc. Huh? If you listen to a Symphony MK1 side by side with a BF Apollo the Apollo sounds like a toy. There is more to a converter than just the chips. The clocking, circuit layout, and the analog sections are very important. That is where the Apollo falls short. Also, the fan on a Symphony MK1 never comes on unless you have 2 modules running max channels in both slots. Since they are so cheap now I just have 2 chassis running one card each. The fans never come on and you get 4 quality headphone amps for cue mixes. The step up in conversion has made a huge difference in my recordings to the point I also bought a JCF AD8 which is another step up from the Symphony AD and next will be a Dangerous Convert 8 to step up the DA... worth every penny. I wish I had listened to the advice I was given years ago to stop wasting time on mediocre converters. I now use a Motu 112D as the interface with the Symphonies in standalone mode and the Apollo is now on special FX duty via aux buses on ADAT from the Motu mixer. No more dilly-dallying with the limitations of non-flexible routing in the UAD console. Heheh. Got a live one! Seems odd that Apogee would choose to move towards "toy" sonics with the flagship MKII, the MKII ADC being much closer (extremely close, apparently) to the BF Apollo design. |
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 30, 2017 12:36:08 GMT -6
They are awesome for sure, although (going from memory here) the MK1 didn't sound much better than my MOTU 1248. The mid range / upper end market is getting very tight, checking spec's etc. the differences between multi I/O converters at the $1500.00+ range and even the new Symphony wouldn't be enough to sway me. It's obviously pure speculation on my part as I've never owned a BF Apollo, but I can't imagine the Symphony MK1 being better. If I upgrade again at some point, I'll be looking for the best latency / rock solid drivers etc. Huh? If you listen to a Symphony MK1 side by side with a BF Apollo the Apollo sounds like a toy. There is more to a converter than just the chips. The clocking, circuit layout, and the analog sections are very important. That is where the Apollo falls short. Also, the fan on a Symphony MK1 never comes on unless you have 2 modules running max channels in both slots. Since they are so cheap now I just have 2 chassis running one card each. The fans never come on and you get 4 quality headphone amps for cue mixes. The step up in conversion has made a huge difference in my recordings to the point I also bought a JCF AD8 which is another step up from the Symphony AD and next will be a Dangerous Convert 8 to step up the DA... worth every penny. I wish I had listened to the advice I was given years ago to stop wasting time on mediocre converters. I now use a Motu 112D as the interface with the Symphonies in standalone mode and the Apollo is now on special FX duty via aux buses on ADAT from the Motu mixer. No more dilly-dallying with the limitations of non-flexible routing in the UAD console. Whoa! So you have 4 interfaces and a 8 channel AD converter? Dag, son. Money. |
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Post by veggieryan on Jan 30, 2017 12:43:19 GMT -6
Huh? If you listen to a Symphony MK1 side by side with a BF Apollo the Apollo sounds like a toy. There is more to a converter than just the chips. The clocking, circuit layout, and the analog sections are very important. That is where the Apollo falls short. Also, the fan on a Symphony MK1 never comes on unless you have 2 modules running max channels in both slots. Since they are so cheap now I just have 2 chassis running one card each. The fans never come on and you get 4 quality headphone amps for cue mixes. The step up in conversion has made a huge difference in my recordings to the point I also bought a JCF AD8 which is another step up from the Symphony AD and next will be a Dangerous Convert 8 to step up the DA... worth every penny. I wish I had listened to the advice I was given years ago to stop wasting time on mediocre converters. I now use a Motu 112D as the interface with the Symphonies in standalone mode and the Apollo is now on special FX duty via aux buses on ADAT from the Motu mixer. No more dilly-dallying with the limitations of non-flexible routing in the UAD console. Heheh. Got a live one! Seems odd that Apogee would choose to move towards "toy" sonics with the flagship MKII, the MKII ADC being much closer (extremely close, apparently) to the BF Apollo design. UAD can put whatever chips they want in their Apollos but until they chose to design a quality analog section and use a quality clock it will continue to sound like a toy... They use the exact same chip Apogee used for the Symphony MK1 DAC years ago and still managed to make it sound like a toy... the chip is only one part of a good converter design. I can only hope UAD offers an all digital Apollo with a professional digital protocol like AES in their next generation.... If they designed an Apollo with Symphony grade sonics it would be priced so high we would never hear the end of people complaining about it.  |
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Post by veggieryan on Jan 30, 2017 12:48:15 GMT -6
Well I bought everything used for about 50-70% off retail so it's not that bad. The used MK1 Symphonies are the best value in pro audio right now. Some people prefer their sound to the MK2's even. If UAD released a professional grade Apollo I could just buy one and save a ton of money on cables and such. I just got tired of waiting/hoping for that to happen. |
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Post by ericn on Jan 30, 2017 13:06:35 GMT -6
Dude.... doesn't everyone know on RGO that the Symphony is the best converter known to mankind.... 😭😂 On the other hand I have have seen where people have had the same issues ( handful prob not high %, but enough to know it's a design issue ) with their Symphony however Apogee made them pay for repairs and shipping and there was no loaner unit for downtime... I agree that the mk2 would be the better buy at this point due to the known fan noise problems and the overheating issues that are documented. Plus I heard somewhere the Symphony mk2 present a more in depth audio capture with more clarity by the converter design being aimed towards transparency... Ahh man and wasted all this money on a RADAR because I want the official internet audio self anointed expert approved conversion! guess I'm screwed !😎😎 |
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Post by ragan on Jan 30, 2017 13:06:40 GMT -6
Heheh. Got a live one! Seems odd that Apogee would choose to move towards "toy" sonics with the flagship MKII, the MKII ADC being much closer (extremely close, apparently) to the BF Apollo design. UAD can put whatever chips they want in their Apollos but until they chose to design a quality analog section and use a quality clock it will continue to sound like a toy... They use the exact same chip Apogee used for the Symphony MK1 DAC years ago and still managed to make it sound like a toy... the chip is only one part of a good converter design. I can only hope UAD offers an all digital Apollo with a professional digital protocol like AES in their next generation.... If they designed an Apollo with Symphony grade sonics it would be priced so high we would never hear the end of people complaining about it. Well, it's not just the chip. Yeah, they both use the same AKM chip, but Apogee is now also doing the parallel conversion and using the same family of National Semiconductor op amps (the UA being slightly higher spec) downstream. Obviously, yeah, layout, clock, there are plenty of reasons they don't necessarily sound the same. But there are striking similarities in the overall design. I haven't put them side by side so I can't claim to know exactly how they compare, but I think it's ridiculous to try and claim the Apollo sounds like a toy. Obviously it's totally subjective, so I, totally subjectively, think your claim is ridiculous  BUT, I'd love to hear this enormous difference between Pro and Toy that you're experiencing. You've got all those units there, how about you run some comparisons and post them, unlabeled, so we can hear what you're hearing? |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 30, 2017 13:08:39 GMT -6
Funny thing about Apogee I know guys who still think the AD8000se is their best work!
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 30, 2017 13:15:12 GMT -6
Yeah - I wouldn't doubt the MkI might "sound" a bit better...but is that hyped bottom? Rolled off top? Which is truer? IDK...anyway, I'd like to keep away from such hyperbolic speech, because, well, it's just not true. I don't even think YOU really believe that, veggieryan |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 30, 2017 13:15:29 GMT -6
If it's true, I'm running out and buying a Symphony...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2017 13:47:51 GMT -6
They are awesome for sure, although (going from memory here) the MK1 didn't sound much better than my MOTU 1248. The mid range / upper end market is getting very tight, checking spec's etc. the differences between multi I/O converters at the $1500.00+ range and even the new Symphony wouldn't be enough to sway me. It's obviously pure speculation on my part as I've never owned a BF Apollo, but I can't imagine the Symphony MK1 being better. If I upgrade again at some point, I'll be looking for the best latency / rock solid drivers etc. Huh? If you listen to a Symphony MK1 side by side with a BF Apollo the Apollo sounds like a toy. There is more to a converter than just the chips. The clocking, circuit layout, and the analog sections are very important. That is where the Apollo falls short. Also, the fan on a Symphony MK1 never comes on unless you have 2 modules running max channels in both slots. Since they are so cheap now I just have 2 chassis running one card each. The fans never come on and you get 4 quality headphone amps for cue mixes. The step up in conversion has made a huge difference in my recordings to the point I also bought a JCF AD8 which is another step up from the Symphony AD and next will be a Dangerous Convert 8 to step up the DA... worth every penny. I wish I had listened to the advice I was given years ago to stop wasting time on mediocre converters. I now use a Motu 112D as the interface with the Symphonies in standalone mode and the Apollo is now on special FX duty via aux buses on ADAT from the Motu mixer. No more dilly-dallying with the limitations of non-flexible routing in the UAD console. I never owned a BF apollo so I wouldn't know, but I do own a MOTU 1248 and I did own a Symphony MK1 2X6. Between Svart who's a technical audio engineer / electronics dude and myself who's a technical audio engineer / software dude who needs a fundamental understanding of how it all works. I know enough (as well as others) about what is very important and / or not in a converter. There isn't a massive difference between the 1248 and the Symphony Mk1, I can't say I've done a full workup on either but from limited tested correlation values and signal analysis there was nothing to be concerned about (or masses o' difference). If you think the 1248 is a toy then I would be seriously interested in how you came to that conclusion.. On the BF Apollo I'm going on pure speculation as I said, I noticed in some tests it didn't fair too well. But as long as people are happy cool and we all know spec's generally can't be trusted but it looks good on paper if nothing else, P.S I'm adhering to the new nicer RGO policies instead of my usual slagging off equipment.  |
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