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Post by illacov on Dec 4, 2016 10:04:11 GMT -6
Heres a frame of thought to share with you.
In theory, you use a console as your matrix for signal processing. This is an active device, active stages throughout that can drive other stages.
A DAC is very different from a console line amp. If you can get your signal from your DAW to something that has a line amp or you can get into a mic preamp via DI, then you can experience a totally different level of interaction with your hardware.
For those of you with multiple vibey preamps or really cool transformer based consoles, consider the tone options alone.
Aside from that, you also gain the ability to drive your analog equipment with analog gain while maintaining clarity at your DAC. What if the compressor just sounds better pushed or for the source to the extreme? If you push the DAC too far it will not be pleasing, but an amplifier designed to take line level or mic level signal and boost it can go to bounds your DAC can't.
In my experience, not utilizing this free hack, limits our experience with hardware in a mostly digital environment. We are limited by the DACs headroom and ability to handle loud transients on full scale audio especially. There's plenty of gear in your studio that exhibits some pretty sweet tones when driven with healthy amounts of signal.
Think about it, your compressor's threshold in most cases goes "over," 0db. Why on earth would a compressor need a threshold that goes to +10db?
I find that for even conservative applications, I sonically prefer to patch in my Neve before my dbx on snare or my Altec pre before my Gates. It offers a level of depth and control that I don't enjoy ITB.
You have to put things in context electronically. Think like a mad scientist!
Be glad to post clips, even my dbx 266 benefits from the approach.
Thanks
-L.
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Post by mrholmes on Dec 4, 2016 10:27:03 GMT -6
WAS OT GOT THE FIRST READ WRONG!
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Post by swurveman on Dec 4, 2016 10:54:10 GMT -6
Heres a frame of thought to share with you. In theory, you use a console as your matrix for signal processing. This is an active device, active stages throughout that can drive other stages. What console do you use? |
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Post by illacov on Dec 4, 2016 11:22:38 GMT -6
Heres a frame of thought to share with you. In theory, you use a console as your matrix for signal processing. This is an active device, active stages throughout that can drive other stages. What console do you use? Wheatstone SP5. Transformer based mic pres, NE5532 chips, 3 band EQ, low band eq goes down to 40hz, 16khz on high band. Really sweet board. I made this thread less to discuss mixing on my board than to discuss using the channels which are post insert + EQ and post fader on the dorect outs, to hit my analog hardware. The majority of which is not super expensive stuff, but I have more fun with that gear when I have my channels or mic pres involved. Even my Yamaha REV 7 is a different beast when its just DAC>REV7 vs DAC>SP5>REV7. Standalone mic pres with a DI count too! This stuff sits idle during most mixdowns buts technically fodder for your mixing needs too. A real analog piece can offer loads of character that you wont get internally and even though we often associate that with boutique compressors and EQs, theres loads of flavor inside your 312/1073/Quad8/Tonebeast/CAPI preamp that will add some magic to your mixing process when you treat it like a gravymaster instead of a preamp, this really does some amazing stuff into a compressor, but as well, a compressor into a preamp that can attenuate (like a Neve 1073 pre) offers you some pretty wild opportunity to dial in flavors that just don't exist in digital. Ill be glad to make some clips of this principle. I can accomplish this pretty easily with just my dbx and my SP5. Thanks -L. |
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Post by illacov on Dec 4, 2016 11:24:20 GMT -6
I sonically prefer to patch in my Neve before my dbx on snare or my Altec pre before my Gates. It offers a level of depth and control that I don't enjoy ITB. I just finished a typical band mix drums, guitar, base, organ, LV and BGV - all ITB. I was able to get as many depth and dimension as I get with my real gear. There was no reason to switch on my hardware. I have 144 db dynamic range that is more than I will ever have in the analog world. For the sake that I repeat myself, since Slates VCC2, I see myself using the console lesser and lesser. And if he puts out some more processing tools - in the quality of his VBC - I see myself selling my real gear. In the end it counts what works for you. I see myself having a nice hybrid setup workflow. The hardware gets fired every time I find a plug-in substitute. Prost  What does this have to do with patching in your hardware differently? Honest question. Thanks -L. |
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Post by mrholmes on Dec 4, 2016 11:30:21 GMT -6
I just finished a typical band mix drums, guitar, base, organ, LV and BGV - all ITB. I was able to get as many depth and dimension as I get with my real gear. There was no reason to switch on my hardware. I have 144 db dynamic range that is more than I will ever have in the analog world. For the sake that I repeat myself, since Slates VCC2, I see myself using the console lesser and lesser. And if he puts out some more processing tools - in the quality of his VBC - I see myself selling my real gear. In the end it counts what works for you. I see myself having a nice hybrid setup workflow. The hardware gets fired every time I find a plug-in substitute. Prost What does this have to do with patching in your hardware differently? Honest question. Thanks -L. I got it wrong.... ahhah I take my time.... LOL erased it... |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Dec 4, 2016 12:41:34 GMT -6
I think crappy line stages and lack of dither are the two most common causes of bad digital sound.
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Post by wiz on Dec 4, 2016 14:00:50 GMT -6
I think crappy line stages and lack of dither are the two most common causes of bad digital sound. When Bob was mastering my last album we went through dither selection... it was as big a deal to the final sonics in my mind as any other part of the recording process.. like mic selection. cheers Wiz |
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Post by wiz on Dec 4, 2016 14:03:15 GMT -6
I was just thinking about this, this morning, couldnt sleep ... gig lag. The whole reason I got a console.. modified Delta... was to do this... getting levels right into and out of gear. Its a big deal. I was going to get a SSL Desk to do it... but eventually whilst saving for the X Desk I got a Delta. I think mixing ITB is one thing... tracking ITB and MIXING ITB is another. illacov I would love to hear some examples. cheers Wiz |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2016 14:06:09 GMT -6
I think crappy line stages and lack of dither are the two most common causes of bad digital sound. When Bob was mastering my last album we went through dither selection... it was as big a deal to the final sonics in my mind as any other part of the recording process.. like mic selection. cheers Wiz Is that because there good and bad dither algo's? Never understood this too well. |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Dec 4, 2016 14:12:48 GMT -6
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Post by wiz on Dec 4, 2016 14:16:50 GMT -6
When Bob was mastering my last album we went through dither selection... it was as big a deal to the final sonics in my mind as any other part of the recording process.. like mic selection. cheers Wiz Is that because there good and bad dither algo's? Never understood this too well. Basically, each dither and no dither sounded different. One stood out to be the best. cheers Wiz |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2016 14:22:29 GMT -6
Really like his stuff - hadn't seen that - will check it out, thanks. (interesting that he promotes his youtube vids under science and technology not music) He is the geek that speaks the geek's geek  |
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Post by illacov on Dec 4, 2016 14:22:33 GMT -6
I think crappy line stages and lack of dither are the two most common causes of bad digital sound. It would be very interesting if DACs came with a controllable output level rather than just fixed +4 or -10. I'd greatly enjoy having the ability to drive my gear with clean gain this way or even headphone mixers etc.... I think this contributes less to things being crappy and more to things sounding disconnected. You don't use an 1176 in a vacuum, in analog terms its integrated into the channel strip structure. I think tying things back together by using some analog gain stage/line stage with your compressors/eqs etc..helps a great deal to minimize the disjointed effect of just patching a compressor/other piece of hardware to a set of converters. Thanks -L. |
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Post by donr on Dec 4, 2016 15:29:42 GMT -6
Sounds like you have a viable product idea, Langston. Say a box with four nice line amps with pots, detented at unity. TRS ins and outs. The DAC Rocker.
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Post by mrholmes on Dec 4, 2016 15:30:15 GMT -6
I think crappy line stages and lack of dither are the two most common causes of bad digital sound. There was an article by Bob Katz, years ago, about using input dithering when coming back to the input of the AD... I cant find it online... BTW this might be interesting too? www.toneboosters.com/tb-dither/ |
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Post by illacov on Dec 4, 2016 15:43:10 GMT -6
Sounds like you have a viable product idea, Langston. Say a box with four nice line amps with pots, detented at unity. TRS ins and outs. The DAC Rocker. Actually, I think svart should be the tech behind it and I'll conceptualize it with him. My vote is that it has output transformers so that you literally have a transformer to real world connection. Think about it. Neve 1073 to 1176. That's Marinair output to 1176 Input transformer. But we skip the Neve/API/etc when we use our 1176 now and just go DAC (opamps)>1176. Thats a different sound altogether. This won't necessarily apply to all gear of course but it will make a big difference in how you can run it. Svart?? Thanks -L. |
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Post by Quint on Dec 4, 2016 16:06:30 GMT -6
I think crappy line stages and lack of dither are the two most common causes of bad digital sound. So if one is mixing through a console or summing mixer, what type of dither plugin is best to use on each of the 16 (or 24 or 32) outputs from your dac? I assume you would place this plugin as the last item on each channel before it leaves the dac? Any suggestions on particular brand? |
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Post by illacov on Dec 4, 2016 16:13:40 GMT -6
I think crappy line stages and lack of dither are the two most common causes of bad digital sound. So if one is mixing through a console or summing mixer, what type of dither plugin is best to use on each of the 16 (or 24 or 32) outputs from your dac? I assume you would place this plugin as the last item on each channel before it leaves the dac? Any suggestions on particular brand? Why would you dither a source track during a mixdown? This is news. I was taught that dither was the very last thing you do on a master when converting to 16bit. Thanks -L. |
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Post by Quint on Dec 4, 2016 16:23:20 GMT -6
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Post by wiz on Dec 4, 2016 16:26:27 GMT -6
So if one is mixing through a console or summing mixer, what type of dither plugin is best to use on each of the 16 (or 24 or 32) outputs from your dac? I assume you would place this plugin as the last item on each channel before it leaves the dac? Any suggestions on particular brand? Why would you dither a source track during a mixdown? This is news. I was taught that dither was the very last thing you do on a master when converting to 16bit. Thanks -L. Dither should be applied ANY time there is bit reduction going on. This could be when you move a fader in the DAW.. it should happen automatically by the programming of the DAW. When I export mixes out of LOGIC at the same bit depth as the project , 24 bit. I apply dither. cheers Wiz |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Dec 4, 2016 16:29:57 GMT -6
Almost everything in print about dither is dead wrong including software manuals.
All signal processing (including gain changes) expand the theoretical bit depth to infinity. That means you are always reducing bit depth in order to write to a file or stream to a D to A. That reduction needs to be dithered in order to avoid distortion that's louder than the dither and builds up faster. Writing floating point files is less of a problem in practice than fixed point but virtually all D to A converters truncate to 24 bits at their input.
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Post by Quint on Dec 4, 2016 16:31:35 GMT -6
Why would you dither a source track during a mixdown? This is news. I was taught that dither was the very last thing you do on a master when converting to 16bit. Thanks -L. Dither should be applied ANY time there is bit reduction going on. This could be when you move a fader in the DAW.. it should happen automatically by the programming of the DAW. When I export mixes out of LOGIC at the same bit depth as the project , 24 bit. I apply dither. cheers Wiz But, as I understand it, many DAWs DON'T do this automatically, especially if we're talking about output channels which aren't the master output, as would be the case if somebody is mixing OTB. |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Dec 4, 2016 16:34:11 GMT -6
Samplitude is the only one I've seen. TDM Pro Tools had an optional dithered mixer that took care of it.
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Post by wiz on Dec 4, 2016 16:54:51 GMT -6
Dither should be applied ANY time there is bit reduction going on. This could be when you move a fader in the DAW.. it should happen automatically by the programming of the DAW. When I export mixes out of LOGIC at the same bit depth as the project , 24 bit. I apply dither. cheers Wiz But, as I understand it, many DAWs DON'T do this automatically, especially if we're talking about output channels which aren't the master output, as would be the case if somebody is mixing OTB. This, is the rub. cheers Wiz |
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