|
|
Post by indiehouse on Nov 20, 2016 14:04:59 GMT -6
Ok, so here's something I'm not totally clear on.
I've got several instrument tracks that I'm routing to a stereo buss called "KEYS". On that buss, I've got a hardware buss comp as an insert. I've also got a room reverb set up on another aux input, and I'm sending various individual instrument tracks within the KEYS group to it. The problem is that creates a pretty big and noticeable latency. When I remove the hardware insert from the bus comp, everything is right again, and the latency is gone.
How do I work this? Surely this is a common routing setup, right? Using a hardware bus comp while sending reverb to individual tracks.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2016 14:21:00 GMT -6
Daw or consul?
|
|
|
|
Post by indiehouse on Nov 20, 2016 14:37:29 GMT -6
DAW
|
|
|
|
Post by mulmany on Nov 20, 2016 14:45:39 GMT -6
Avid has a video on the delay comp logic and how things need to be set so that it calculates it correctly. It sounds like it's over compensating for the verb buss.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,014 
|
Post by ericn on Nov 20, 2016 14:51:51 GMT -6
This where a console and or PT HD rule, with low or zero latency.
Busses are DSP intensive, buffer size can help or create a whole new set of issues.
If your interface provides a lowly envy mixer like RME total mix it is sometimes easier to do the routing there.
This is also why I say even if you are 100% in the box a small mixer can be a life saving Swiss Army knife!
|
|
|
|
Post by guitfiddler on Nov 20, 2016 19:19:26 GMT -6
AVID? $25000 gets you around that software problem, now let's talk about the hardware  |
|
|
|
Post by ChaseUTB on Nov 20, 2016 19:49:47 GMT -6
Do you have any auxes or busses that lead to nowhere? Any hidden tracks that are active with plugs?
Sometimes this can cause absurdly high Delay compensation values. Have you printed your key buss with compression to see if it's aligned on the timeline in the session? Are you not muting an input that is causing phase? Example: my wa76 is insert 7 in PT but renamed. The compressed return comes back in Line input 5 in UAD console as well as PT. I have to mute Line input 5 in console or i hear timing and phase issues eve though the track is in time and aligned in the grid in PT.
Have you printed the reverb bus to see if it is delayed in the timeline?
|
|
|
|
Post by guitfiddler on Nov 20, 2016 19:52:23 GMT -6
AVID? $25000 gets you around that software problem, now let's talk about the hardware I looked into that issue a while back and non HD PT always gave me latency fits. |
|
|
|
Post by ChaseUTB on Nov 20, 2016 20:18:52 GMT -6
Unfortunately PT HD is not remiss/ exempt from these issues as well. Just by researching the OP's issue just now, there are PTHD users having delay compensation issues as well.. Could be user errors or system errors however with multiple people having similar issues reported Avid needs to step up and commit to eradicating these type of issues! PT costs too dam much for this BS!
|
|
|
|
Post by indiehouse on Nov 20, 2016 20:54:29 GMT -6
Do you have any auxes or busses that lead to nowhere? Any hidden tracks that are active with plugs? Sometimes this can cause absurdly high Delay compensation values. Have you printed your key buss with compression to see if it's aligned on the timeline in the session? Are you not muting an input that is causing phase? Example: my wa76 is insert 7 in PT but renamed. The compressed return comes back in Line input 5 in UAD console as well as PT. I have to mute Line input 5 in console or i hear timing and phase issues eve though the track is in time and aligned in the grid in PT. Have you printed the reverb bus to see if it is delayed in the timeline? No, it's definitely the issue I described. I take off the hardware insert from the KEYS buss, and the latency from the verb and goes away. Or if I mute the verb aid, latency goes away as well. |
|
|
|
Post by ChaseUTB on Nov 21, 2016 3:14:39 GMT -6
I have 3 audio tracks, Vox, Snr, Crash and 4 auxes, sDrums, sVox, mPlate, and SDlyPP. The vox audio track is routed to sVox with HW wa76 inserted. The vox audio is being sent to both mPlate ( UAD EMT 140 UAD known for their inherent latency in the DAW ) and SDlyPP ( stereo delay ping pong ) The snare and crash are also being sent to mPlate and SDlyPp and are bussed / sent to sDrums. Everything is in time, no latency, no delay comp issues at any buffer down to 64-128, everything plays and prints in time! I had pics to upload but they are too big so you could see the routing and everything.
I am on 32bit rtas PT10.3.1 Try to check your I/O setup and busses setup, may be best to reset to default. Don't know if use an Apollo, but PT mode has to be enabled for HW inserts to report the correct offset values as an Avid HD I/o interface and print / play / be in time visually and audibly.
|
|
|
|
Post by jjinvegas on Nov 21, 2016 3:40:02 GMT -6
Or you could just render the reverb track with just one instrument at a time feeding it. I print lots of reverbs because then you can mess with them further, compress, eq, slide further down the timeline for easy pre-delay. Sometimes workarounds create new possibilities, and are usually faster than trying to understand and remedy quirks that may only come up once....
|
|
|
|
Post by rocinante on Nov 21, 2016 8:20:00 GMT -6
Or you could just render the reverb track with just one instrument at a time feeding it. I print lots of reverbs because then you can mess with them further, compress, eq, slide further down the timeline for easy pre-delay. Sometimes workarounds create new possibilities, and are usually faster than trying to understand and remedy quirks that may only come up once.... Yep. I'm often forced to do the same. |
|
|
|
Post by swurveman on Nov 21, 2016 16:33:06 GMT -6
Do you have any auxes or busses that lead to nowhere? Any hidden tracks that are active with plugs? Sometimes this can cause absurdly high Delay compensation values. Have you printed your key buss with compression to see if it's aligned on the timeline in the session? Are you not muting an input that is causing phase? Example: my wa76 is insert 7 in PT but renamed. The compressed return comes back in Line input 5 in UAD console as well as PT. I have to mute Line input 5 in console or i hear timing and phase issues eve though the track is in time and aligned in the grid in PT. Have you printed the reverb bus to see if it is delayed in the timeline? No, it's definitely the issue I described. I take off the hardware insert from the KEYS buss, and the latency from the verb and goes away. Or if I mute the verb aid, latency goes away as well. What happens if you send to the verb from the individual Keys channels and not the Keys Buss? |
|
|
|
Post by swurveman on Nov 21, 2016 16:36:24 GMT -6
Or you could just render the reverb track with just one instrument at a time feeding it. I print lots of reverbs because then you can mess with them further, compress, eq, slide further down the timeline for easy pre-delay. Sometimes workarounds create new possibilities, and are usually faster than trying to understand and remedy quirks that may only come up once.... What happens when later on down the road you change EQ settings on the channel you sent to the verb? I mean, for me to go to all that trouble I would have to be certain the mix was finished. I will say this: I've never had latency problems from hardware inserts with PT 12 or Cubase 8. I wonder if the problem is the audio interface? |
|
|
|
Post by indiehouse on Nov 21, 2016 16:55:43 GMT -6
No, it's definitely the issue I described. I take off the hardware insert from the KEYS buss, and the latency from the verb and goes away. Or if I mute the verb aid, latency goes away as well. What happens if you send to the verb from the individual Keys channels and not the Keys Buss? That's what I'm doing now. Verb is being sent from individual channels, HW insert on the group buss channel. |
|
|
|
Post by indiehouse on Nov 21, 2016 16:56:49 GMT -6
Or you could just render the reverb track with just one instrument at a time feeding it. I print lots of reverbs because then you can mess with them further, compress, eq, slide further down the timeline for easy pre-delay. Sometimes workarounds create new possibilities, and are usually faster than trying to understand and remedy quirks that may only come up once.... What happens when later on down the road you change EQ settings on the channel you sent to the verb? I mean, for me to go to all that trouble I would have to be certain the mix was finished. I will say this: I've never had latency problems from hardware inserts with PT 12 or Cubase 8. I wonder if the problem is the audio interface? I'm on a BF Apollo 16. I don't think it's the interface, but I can't be sure. |
|
|
|
Post by jjinvegas on Nov 21, 2016 17:03:48 GMT -6
 II guess since I associate Avid with Avoid, my short and unhappy dealings with them mean that I am not completely up to speed on how much trouble it is to render a few reverb tracks on PT. On Reaper I could do it in less time than I am going to spend typing this note. I originally printed reverb tracks because the first computer I used for audio was bumping 100% CPU and most reverb programs are thirsty that way. But because of that, I was afforded the light-bulb moment that the reverb stems often benefitted from all sorts of little tweaks and tricks. Dead stops, radical flanging, combining with the drum sum to really pump a convolution room sim. Having a different EQ on a source to the verb might really be interesting. Workarounds sometimes create happy accidents. Happier than reading manuals.....smile.... |
|
|
|
Post by swurveman on Nov 21, 2016 17:20:47 GMT -6
What happens if you send to the verb from the individual Keys channels and not the Keys Buss? That's what I'm doing now. Verb is being sent from individual channels, HW insert on the group buss channel. Ah, got it. Sorry you're having the hassle. |
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Nov 21, 2016 18:39:33 GMT -6
What happens if you send to the verb from the individual Keys channels and not the Keys Buss? That's what I'm doing now. Verb is being sent from individual channels, HW insert on the group buss channel. I believe that is your problem. Do NOT put the verb on your bus. Put it on a Aux return and send the aux return into the aforementioned bus and you should be good to go. PT is pretty specific about this in their documentation. It generally works perfectly. Hope that makes sense. |
|
|
|
Post by indiehouse on Nov 21, 2016 18:59:20 GMT -6
That's what I'm doing now. Verb is being sent from individual channels, HW insert on the group buss channel. I believe that is your problem. Do NOT put the verb on your bus. Put it on a Aux return and send the aux return into the aforementioned bus and you should be good to go. PT is pretty specific about this in their documentation. It generally works perfectly. Hope that makes sense. I think I follow you. The verb IS on an aux return, and I'm running individual channels into it via sends, per normal. Those tracks are then sent to their own buss, which is sent to a Submaster (which is sent out through a hardware chain, including a Silver Bullet!). The Aux Send with the verb is also sent to the Submaster. So, you're saying I have to send the reverb Aux channel to the instrument buss? That would force the verb to be sent through the compressor. |
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Nov 21, 2016 20:08:08 GMT -6
I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "submaster". VCA master? Master Fader? Aux Return that you're using as a submaster? The verb does not have to go to the instrument bus. I thought you wanted it to go there, that's why I mentioned it. Trying to figure out how you're routing. The other issue is PT using a third party interface. If the interface is not communicating well, consistently or accurately with PT, you will have inconsistent delay compensation as you have described.
Honestly, I very, very rarely use native systems with 3rd party interfaces - been doing this on Mix, HD and now HDX systems without a single hiccup. that I can remember But IMExperience, the vast majority of these problems come down to the interface and it's consistent and accurate communication with PT, engineers not "doing delay compensation" right, a corrupted pref, etc. Not the software itself. Hope you figure it out.
|
|
|
|
Post by indiehouse on Nov 21, 2016 20:40:10 GMT -6
I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "submaster". VCA master? Master Fader? Aux Return that you're using as a submaster? The verb does not have to go to the instrument bus. I thought you wanted it to go there, that's why I mentioned it. Trying to figure out how you're routing. The other issue is PT using a third party interface. If the interface is not communicating well, consistently or accurately with PT, you will have inconsistent delay compensation as you have described. Honestly, I very, very rarely use native systems with 3rd party interfaces - been doing this on Mix, HD and now HDX systems without a single hiccup. that I can remember But IMExperience, the vast majority of these problems come down to the interface and it's consistent and accurate communication with PT, engineers not "doing delay compensation" right, a corrupted pref, etc. Not the software itself. Hope you figure it out. Right. It's an Aux return I'm bussing everything to before the master fader. From there, it's routed to the master fader for playback during mixing, or to a stereo audio track for printing a mix. Hope that made sense. I usually just run my verbs straight to the submaster, or mix buss, whatever you want to call it. I have a hard time believing that UAD would put out a second generation of interfaces, especially their "flagship" interface designed to be used in a hybrid system, that wouldn't work well with an industry standard DAW. Not saying that this isn't the case, but I hope not! Ha! Also, wouldn't a corrupted pref file actually be a software issue? I appreciate the feedback! Always open to learning new things if there's something I could be doing better! |
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Nov 21, 2016 21:05:55 GMT -6
Cool. That helps me understand your routing a bit more in detail. Sounds like you are doing things right. Just to re:articulate using a dummy setup :
Open an Aux return and instantiate your hardware on the aux return's insert using a hardware insert. Route hardware i/o to the hardware verb's i/o.
Assign the input of the aux return from an internal bus - let's say - bus 17/18. Make sure you're not trying to feed hardware outputs directly from your Aux sends on individual channels and returning the output of your hardware verb to the input of your Aux return. The hardware should ONLY be on an insert. Not being fed from a hardware output coming back to an input that not on an insert. (hope that makes sense, it's been a long day...)
Assign output of the aux return to either Master fader (monitor) output or your print track's input which would be bussed to your master fader.
Assign individual tracks aux sends to bus 17/18 to feed your hardware verb.
Sounds like that is what you're doing, but I just rearticulated to make sure.
Re: hardware. One would THINK it should work flawlessly, but experience with various pieces of gear shows otherwise. Have you tried contacting Avid's tech support. There's something going on that is not "right" or a normal occurrence in PT. A corrupted pref? Well.....it's not a part of written code. I wouldn't call it software related but preference related. Semantics I suppose.....
Keep in mind that UA is a competitor to Avid. My experience between MOTU based DAW (DP) with PT hardware was that they didn't work perfectly together. Lots of finger pointing to the "other" manufacturer from each of them. My take on it was Digi (at the time it was Digidesign) wasn't giving MOTU 100% of the tech info they needed to make DP perform flawlessly with PT hardware.
I don't doubt this could be your problem - although I honestly don't know. Avid tech support is pretty good when you encounter these types of random, head scratching issues.... Good luck.
|
|
|
|
Post by indiehouse on Nov 21, 2016 21:25:30 GMT -6
Cool. That helps me understand your routing a bit more in detail. Sounds like you are doing things right. Just to re:articulate using a dummy setup : Open an Aux return and instantiate your hardware on the aux return's insert using a hardware insert. Route hardware i/o to the hardware verb's i/o. Assign the input of the aux return from an internal bus - let's say - bus 17/18. Make sure you're not trying to feed hardware outputs directly from your Aux sends on individual channels and returning the output of your hardware verb to the input of your Aux return. The hardware should ONLY be on an insert. Not being fed from a hardware output coming back to an input that not on an insert. (hope that makes sense, it's been a long day...) Assign output of the aux return to either Master fader (monitor) output or your print track's input which would be bussed to your master fader. Assign individual tracks aux sends to bus 17/18 to feed your hardware verb. Sounds like that is what you're doing, but I just rearticulated to make sure. Re: hardware. One would THINK it should work flawlessly, but experience with various pieces of gear shows otherwise. Have you tried contacting Avid's tech support. There's something going on that is not "right" or a normal occurrence in PT. A corrupted pref? Well.....it's not a part of written code. I wouldn't call it software related but preference related. Semantics I suppose..... Keep in mind that UA is a competitor to Avid. My experience between MOTU based DAW (DP) with PT hardware was that they didn't work perfectly together. Lots of finger pointing to the "other" manufacturer from each of them. My take on it was Digi (at the time it was Digidesign) wasn't giving MOTU 100% of the tech info they needed to make DP perform flawlessly with PT hardware. I don't doubt this could be your problem - although I honestly don't know. Avid tech support is pretty good when you encounter these types of random, head scratching issues.... Good luck. Yeah, I think that's it, for the most part. Except I'm not using a hardware verb. It's a software verb (Nimbus). I've set up 2 aux channels. One is for the verb, which I'm sending various individual tracks to (via sends). The other is a buss, which I'm routing those individual tracks to via their output (not sends). In this case, they're all KEYS, so I created a buss (aux channel) named KEYS, on which I've inserted (using a HW insert) a hardware stereo comp. Both this aux buss (KEYS) and the verb aux are being sent to the submaster (mix buss) via their outputs. Hopefully that made sense. I feel like I might be edging on confusion. Hope not. |
|
