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Post by swurveman on Nov 6, 2016 8:05:24 GMT -6
I got a two week SSL Sigma loaner Friday. So, I thought people might be interested in my experience as I get to know and work with it.
1. Sigma runs via an ethernet connection. So, I had to buy an Ethernet router, run a Cat6 cable from my Comcast Modem to a Linksys Router and then run Cat 6 cables to my PC and Sigma. Sigma has an internet address that you put in the browser. When I configured the Ethernet routing the browser opened, only to be told that it had been replaced by a Remote Application. Trying to figure out the Remote Application. I asked the SSL guy who sent me the unit if he could direct me to someone I could talk to, since I thought I had a reasonable idea of what was going on but wanted to ask a few questions and thought a phone conversation would be the most efficient use of my time at this point. He replied by saying I needed to read the documentation more. Kinda disappointed by that....I set up Cubase to send to Sigma and it is doing that. Cubase is also working with the first 16 Faders of my Tascam USB-2400 which are controlling the first 16 Group Channels that control Sigma. So, that's good. I want to get the full use of Sigma with my outboard. So, I had to change my patchbay connections, which took more work. There's a lot of prep to get Sigma to work. L et's hope it's worth it.....
I'll give my impressions of Sigma's sound and workflow next time, with SoundCloud files of DAW vs Sigma Mixes. If anybody has questions, let me know in this thread.
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Post by svart on Nov 6, 2016 9:12:35 GMT -6
I'm not going to lie, SSL support is not the best and their documentation is iffy. You're best served by their email or website based support because it leaves a running commentary trail.. Depending on who you speak to, you might get different answers or different levels of knowledge. However once you get the hardware setup it's usually Bulletproof any problems you have are usually something unrelated causing the issues. Last time I had a problem with the SSL system giving me errors it turned out to be a bad stick of RAM however the support group couldn't really help me figure that part out.
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Post by swurveman on Nov 7, 2016 7:31:13 GMT -6
I'm not going to lie, SSL support is not the best and their documentation is iffy. You're best served by their email or website based support because it leaves a running commentary trail.. Depending on who you speak to, you might get different answers or different levels of knowledge. However once you get the hardware setup it's usually Bulletproof any problems you have are usually something unrelated causing the issues. Last time I had a problem with the SSL system giving me errors it turned out to be a bad stick of RAM however the support group couldn't really help me figure that part out. Thanks for your advice svart. It's amazing to me that any organization providing trial machines- and I applaud SSL for doing this- doesn't have a focal person for customer support, particularly in cases where there has been revisions and outdated documentation. It just makes business sense for people to be able to get the unit up and running ASAP. |
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Post by svart on Nov 7, 2016 8:03:28 GMT -6
I'm not going to lie, SSL support is not the best and their documentation is iffy. You're best served by their email or website based support because it leaves a running commentary trail.. Depending on who you speak to, you might get different answers or different levels of knowledge. However once you get the hardware setup it's usually Bulletproof any problems you have are usually something unrelated causing the issues. Last time I had a problem with the SSL system giving me errors it turned out to be a bad stick of RAM however the support group couldn't really help me figure that part out. Thanks for your advice svart. It's amazing to me that any organization providing trial machines- and I applaud SSL for doing this- doesn't have a focal person for customer support, particularly in cases where there has been revisions and outdated documentation. It just makes business sense for people to be able to get the unit up and running ASAP. Indeed. Don't get me wrong, I love SSL and their gear and will be a die hard user for life, but there is definitely work involved in using their gear that doesn't need to be there. I was an early adopter of the Alphalink and Mixpander system when they bought and integrated the stuff from Sydec into their product line. It was worse back then. I've since moved up to more modern hardware in the Alphalink MADI and MX4 DSP card, but some of the same problems remain.. Namely that each piece seems to be supported and documented like separate products, and not as a system as it's intended to be used. Sometimes you can't find information on a a certain feature in the Alphalink, but you need to read the documents for the MX4 and also the SSLmixer program to find out how to do something super simple.. All are 30+ page documents and sometimes the feature you want is not in the section you'd expect it to be. Then, sometimes it's worded completely differently from document to document, and explained from a different perspective. It can get really confusing. One that really got me was the wording "Internal".. On the Alphalink that meant exactly that. In the MX4 MADI routing, "Internal" was not internal to the MX4, it actually meant internal to the alphalink as well.. But nothing in the document explained that. I would set the card to clock as a "Slave" because the Alphalink was the master with it's "internal" clock, but it wouldn't work right. I found a tiny blurb in another document for another product that explained this discrepancy. That's the only way I found it. Like I said, it's a pain to set up each piece separately and then try to get them to work together, but once you do that it'll work for a decade without problems! |
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Post by swurveman on Nov 8, 2016 7:10:07 GMT -6
svart, I guess to them it costs too much money to redo complete manuals with updates, like Sigma to Sigma Delta- but in this cut and paste world-and 90% of the original manual is the same- you'd think they'd swing it.
Still, it's up and running.
My initial impression is that the sound is cleaner and more transparent. I don't know if that's the monitor controller-I was using a Presonous Central Station-the general sound of the unit or both. It took a lot of working getting everything on the patchbay, but I'm really close to mixing, which should be fun.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Nov 8, 2016 9:58:08 GMT -6
I love some SSL stuff. IMO, SSL products are way to expensive for these headaches and dummy missions to learn how to operate your gear in a 100% functioning manner... If they cant upgrade a manual on a $5000 dollar piece of gear, I can't be bothered with considering a purchase.. I feel like SSL lives on their reputation and older sound of the past E and G series. No doubt the XL and Duality/ Big AWS version are beasts however I have never thought all the praise was because of the sound. I always hear ppl speak on the workflow efficiency and how people can get the sound they imagine due to these boards having so many routing options..
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Post by svart on Nov 8, 2016 10:07:27 GMT -6
svart, I guess to them it costs too much money to redo complete manuals with updates, like Sigma to Sigma Delta- but in this cut and paste world-and 90% of the original manual is the same- you'd think they'd swing it. Still, it's up and running. My initial impression is that the sound is cleaner and more transparent. I don't know if that's the monitor controller-I was using a Presonous Central Station-the general sound of the unit or both. It took a lot of working getting everything on the patchbay, but I'm really close to mixing, which should be fun. I think that modern SSL products excel when you use them for large productions. I think you'll find that the more channels and I/O you use, the more you'll appreciate it. One thing they do well is staying clean and transparent under large track counts, which is a place where other systems might start getting muddy and noisy, or changing their tone depending on summing bus designs, etc. Which leads me on to more anecdotes.. Most people, including myself, who work on something SSL for the first time are usually like "this is it?". Usually people expect a more "finished" sound right away for some reason, but for the reasons I mentioned above, the lightbulb goes on when you really start to use the gear. |
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Post by svart on Nov 8, 2016 10:11:49 GMT -6
I love some SSL stuff. IMO, SSL products are way to expensive for these headaches and dummy missions to learn how to operate your gear in a functioning at 100% manner... If they cant upgrade a manual on a $5000 dollar piece of gear, I can't be bothered with considering a purchase.. I feel like SSL lives on their reputation and older sound of the past E and G series. No doubt the XL and Duality/ Big AWS version are beasts however I have never thought all the praise was because of the sound. I always hear ppl speak on the workflow efficiency and how people can get the sound they imagine due to these boards having so many routing options.. My holy grail would be a late model 4K desk. Maybe in another decade or so I might actually be able to afford a small one! |
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Post by swurveman on Nov 8, 2016 11:48:57 GMT -6
svart, I guess to them it costs too much money to redo complete manuals with updates, like Sigma to Sigma Delta- but in this cut and paste world-and 90% of the original manual is the same- you'd think they'd swing it. Still, it's up and running. My initial impression is that the sound is cleaner and more transparent. I don't know if that's the monitor controller-I was using a Presonous Central Station-the general sound of the unit or both. It took a lot of working getting everything on the patchbay, but I'm really close to mixing, which should be fun. I think that modern SSL products excel when you use them for large productions. I think you'll find that the more channels and I/O you use, the more you'll appreciate it. One thing they do well is staying clean and transparent under large track counts, which is a place where other systems might start getting muddy and noisy, or changing their tone depending on summing bus designs, etc. Which leads me on to more anecdotes.. Most people, including myself, who work on something SSL for the first time are usually like "this is it?". Usually people expect a more "finished" sound right away for some reason, but for the reasons I mentioned above, the lightbulb goes on when you really start to use the gear. I've got 32 outputs going to it, though since I'm using mono compressors on the kick/snare/ld vox/bass channels I'm losing 4 channels. So, technically 28 channels. |
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Post by ragan on Nov 8, 2016 12:02:18 GMT -6
I love some SSL stuff. IMO, SSL products are way to expensive for these headaches and dummy missions to learn how to operate your gear in a functioning at 100% manner... If they cant upgrade a manual on a $5000 dollar piece of gear, I can't be bothered with considering a purchase.. I feel like SSL lives on their reputation and older sound of the past E and G series. No doubt the XL and Duality/ Big AWS version are beasts however I have never thought all the praise was because of the sound. I always hear ppl speak on the workflow efficiency and how people can get the sound they imagine due to these boards having so many routing options.. My holy grail would be a late model 4K desk. Maybe in another decade or so I might actually be able to afford a small one! Me too. I hope they keep falling in price.... Do you know what the smallest 4K they made was? |
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Post by svart on Nov 8, 2016 12:48:56 GMT -6
My holy grail would be a late model 4K desk. Maybe in another decade or so I might actually be able to afford a small one! Me too. I hope they keep falling in price.... Do you know what the smallest 4K they made was? No idea, but you can get them highly customized through many places now. I've seen single racked channels, 8 or 16 channel sidecars, 16 channel desks with center sections, on up. I think I'd take 24 channels with center section and additional bus channels. A small desk like this could run on a single supply and be relatively cool running and low power without the computer and automation. |
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Post by ericn on Nov 8, 2016 14:09:30 GMT -6
Me too. I hope they keep falling in price.... Do you know what the smallest 4K they made was? No idea, but you can get them highly customized through many places now. I've seen single racked channels, 8 or 16 channel sidecars, 16 channel desks with center sections, on up. I think I'd take 24 channels with center section and additional bus channels. A small desk like this could run on a single supply and be relatively cool running and low power without the computer and automation. Center section is what will cost you! |
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Post by jeremygillespie on Nov 8, 2016 14:37:47 GMT -6
I'd take a used AWS over one of the larger format consoles any day.
And I work on a 9000 K series a lot.
They really have to be getting used constantly for the power consumption to be worth it. The power and air conditioning that is needed to keep these things cool, both in the control room and the machine room is insane.
Compare that to plugging an AWS into a 110 outlet?
Then you get to the part where you need to replace the power supplys on them. There are companies making really great quiet ones now, but that has to be factored into the cost.
No center section or computer? What is the point if you cant automate and have total recall?
I always find it interesting to learn other folks' workflow. If I didnt need automation or recall, I'd probably look elsewhere than SSL, possibly a 1608 or something of that nature.
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Post by swurveman on Nov 8, 2016 15:06:27 GMT -6
OK, I've got all 32 outputs of my converters normalled to 32 inputs of Sigma on the patch bay. I've got all my hardware on the bay patched to the channels and I can monitor everything. Guess what? The manual doesn't give you a clear explanation how to monitor the two Summing Mix Bus's (A and B) outputs, even though they're in competition with DAW users that do it easily with External FX inserts. Anybody have any idea how to monitor the post hardware FX summed outputs? The manual doesn't give you a good explanation.....
Got an email into their support..............
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Post by ericn on Nov 10, 2016 21:32:35 GMT -6
Not sure if I want to know, but what are your latest thoughts? I'm afraid if I try it I'll want one 🤑
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Post by swurveman on Nov 12, 2016 12:47:59 GMT -6
Not sure if I want to know, but what are your latest thoughts? I'm afraid if I try it I'll want one 🤑 There's a big learning curve. So, I spent a lot of last week getting everything set up. One of these two mixes is the Sigma Mix.Care to venture an opinion on which one? It was impossible to use the same EQ/Comp/FX settings, as what I liked when mixing and monitoring itb I didn't like when mixing/monitoring via Sigma. So, the Sigma mix is a new mix. Mix B
https%3A//soundcloud.com/songflowerrecording/mix-bMix A https%3A//soundcloud.com/songflowerrecording/mix-aIf people would like, I can start a new thread with only mixes for evaluation |
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Post by wiz on Nov 12, 2016 15:14:01 GMT -6
A by a huge margin.
So I guess, A is Sigma?
cheers
Wiz
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Post by swurveman on Nov 13, 2016 11:15:48 GMT -6
A by a huge margin. So I guess, A is Sigma? cheers Wiz Thanks for your reply Wiz. Before I respond I hope some other people give their opinions. I'll PM you the result |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 13, 2016 11:23:59 GMT -6
A by a huge margin. So I guess, A is Sigma? cheers Wiz Thanks for your reply Wiz. Before I respond I hope some other people give their opinions. I'll PM you the result Give it a few days anyway. I'm busy tracking/gigging all weekend and haven't gotten a chance to hear. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 13, 2016 11:43:37 GMT -6
I reserve the right to change my mind or make amendments because I was listening on headphones ;-) I'll listen on my monitors after.
After listening to Mix B first, mix A for a few seconds seems better, wider stereo image, fatter kick, but then as it settled in, I felt it was hollow, the parts seemed separated, the snare was anemic, and the vocal smeared. I'd take mix B on headphones.
* OK, I had a minute and a half to give a quick listen on my monitors. Mix A has better stereo separation, a bigger, fatter bottom. My problem with it may be that now it's revealing a drum sound that's not quite right. I don't think it's the board, I think that mixer A is actually the better one, but the drum sound needs work.
Great post swurveman, thanks for doing this. I've been curious about SSL's summing mixer, and this post alerted me to their shortcomings in customer service.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2016 12:02:11 GMT -6
A seems warmer?
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Post by swurveman on Nov 13, 2016 12:25:41 GMT -6
I reserve the right to change my mind or make amendments because I was listening on headphones ;-) I'll listen on my monitors after. After listening to Mix B first, mix A for a few seconds seems better, wider stereo image, fatter kick, but then as it settled in, I felt it was hollow, the parts seemed separated, the snare was anemic, and the vocal smeared. I'd take mix B on headphones. * OK, I had a minute and a half to give a quick listen on my monitors. Mix A has better stereo separation, a bigger, fatter bottom. My problem with it may be that now it's revealing a drum sound that's not quite right. I don't think it's the board, I think that mixer A is actually the better one, but the drum sound needs work. Great post swurveman, thanks for doing this. I've been curious about SSL's summing mixer, and this post alerted me to their shortcomings in customer service. Thanks for your reply Martin. Though many people listen to music on headphones, I think it is more difficult to hear 3 dimensional depth in headphones. Yeah, I was kinda surprised at how little support they've given me trying to set this up, which is no small feat. It made me wonder how much they're gonna support this product, which is small potatoes compared to their consoles. I'm dealing with their software and firmware, an IPMIDI connection, Windows 10, Cubase and RME. So, I have a concern that if they don't sell enough of these they'll just dump their support as all the other elements of my system get updated. On this mix, the routing to Sigma changed the day after I printed the Sigma mix. All the sudden, my RME outs went to different Sigma ins. They have this Remote Control app and I wonder if that got buggy, since I never had RME outputs change in any session before. I will say this: To my ears there's an obvious difference in 3D dimension. I'm gonna do some more mix comparison's since I've got the unit till Friday. I'll put them here and give my impressions about sound and workflow as I proceed. Workflow is dramatically different, since everything is on the patchbay and it's not easy switching from your itb mix to the otb mix. Monitoring has been very difficult to figure out, particularly because i don't have a separate stereo d/a-a/d. |
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Post by indiehouse on Nov 13, 2016 13:32:32 GMT -6
Is there transformers in the Sigma? What makes it different than other summing boxes?
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Post by wiz on Nov 13, 2016 14:36:15 GMT -6
I reserve the right to change my mind or make amendments because I was listening on headphones ;-) I'll listen on my monitors after. After listening to Mix B first, mix A for a few seconds seems better, wider stereo image, fatter kick, but then as it settled in, I felt it was hollow, the parts seemed separated, the snare was anemic, and the vocal smeared. I'd take mix B on headphones. * OK, I had a minute and a half to give a quick listen on my monitors. Mix A has better stereo separation, a bigger, fatter bottom. My problem with it may be that now it's revealing a drum sound that's not quite right. I don't think it's the board, I think that mixer A is actually the better one, but the drum sound needs work. Great post swurveman, thanks for doing this. I've been curious about SSL's summing mixer, and this post alerted me to their shortcomings in customer service. Thanks for your reply Martin. Though many people listen to music on headphones, I think it is more difficult to hear 3 dimensional depth in headphones. Yeah, I was kinda surprised at how little support they've given me trying to set this up, which is no small feat. It made me wonder how much they're gonna support this product, which is small potatoes compared to their consoles. I'm dealing with their software and firmware, an IPMIDI connection, Windows 10, Cubase and RME. So, I have a concern that if they don't sell enough of these they'll just dump their support as all the other elements of my system get updated. On this mix, the routing to Sigma changed the day after I printed the Sigma mix. All the sudden, my RME outs went to different Sigma ins. They have this Remote Control app and I wonder if that got buggy, since I never had RME outputs change in any session before. I will say this: To my ears there's an obvious difference in 3D dimension. I'm gonna do some more mix comparison's since I've got the unit till Friday. I'll put them here and give my impressions about sound and workflow as I proceed. Workflow is dramatically different, since everything is on the patchbay and it's not easy switching from your itb mix to the otb mix. Monitoring has been very difficult to figure out, particularly because i don't have a separate stereo d/a-a/d. I would say this, after reading this post, I had replied to you in PM prior to reading this... If you have qualms about its stability or support, consider sending it back. You know now what it will do... I would look to demo other solutions that are not software based, or even demo VCC 2 as well, and look for something else that gives you the sonic benefit you want. Set up a session, that you can easily implement different summing devices/software and demo a few over time. The software support of something that is a big ticket price wise, is almost to my mind, the single biggest thing you should be worried about. If you have it on demo.. you can always buy it a bit down the track... but I would honestly look for a complete outboard hardware solution if something like VCC2 doesn't spin your wheels. cheers Wiz |
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Post by swurveman on Nov 13, 2016 17:04:32 GMT -6
Is there transformers in the Sigma? What makes it different than other summing boxes? You can use DAW automation to drive the analogue faders of the Sigma. |
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