|
Post by M57 on Oct 17, 2016 19:00:55 GMT -6
Are we by any chance still in poor man's territory, or is the thread being slowly hijacked? FWIW, with few exceptions, I work on a project at a time.. Track first, then mix.. And I'm not a prolific song-writer. I'll probably rewire my gear less in my lifetime less than most of you do in a few months. Do TTbays sound any better than your basic 1/4" patchbay?
|
|
|
Post by jcoutu1 on Oct 17, 2016 19:22:01 GMT -6
Are we by any chance still in poor man's territory, or is the thread being slowly hijacked? FWIW, with few exceptions, I work on a project at a time.. Track first, then mix.. And I'm not a prolific song-writer. I'll probably rewire my gear less in my lifetime less than most of you do in a few months. Do TTbays sound any better than your basic 1/4" patchbay? I use the cheap Neutrik (and 1 DBX). They've been mostly good. Occasionally, the connections in the back didn't click properly when setting up and had to repatch a couple plugs, but all my channels have been working (knock on wood). That said, I regret not getting the SPatchPlus for the convenience of the switches on the front. If you need more than 1 bay, I highly recommend leaving a blank between them for ease of plugging stuff in the back.
|
|
|
Post by stratboy on Oct 17, 2016 19:41:20 GMT -6
Funny, I've gone in the exact opposite direction. At Filmways Heider, Maryland Sound and Alpha Audio, it was all Elco. And Bill is right; if you have those little Elco tools, you can reconfigure a rack to accomodate a new piece of gear relatively easily. No question a TT bay is going to last. So when I did my studio, I bought an ADC TT bay from Mr Patchbay with the punch block on the back. Easy to reconfigure, right? Well, when you are building the early versions of your studio rig, and you don't know your workflow yet, and you trade out pieces of gear as you figure out what works best, it's a major PITA, IMO. I ended up selling the ADC and buying 3 Samson S patch. All my gear and snakes are terminated in 1/4 in TRS. I can reconfigure the whole bay if I want to, with no tools other than my ten (8.5 actually) little fingers. To be fair, since I'm not a pro these days, my time is my own, so reliability is not as big an issue. A new S Patch costs $100, but I haven't needed one yet. For someone starting out, or at some sort of mid-point, I would recommend this route. It's more forgiving of the learning curve. Once you have figured out your workflow, and 75% of your gear is stuff you know well and will never sell, then, by all means! a TT bay, terminated with Elco connectors is absolutely top of the line and worth the investment.
|
|
|
Post by stratboy on Oct 17, 2016 19:50:44 GMT -6
Are we by any chance still in poor man's territory, or is the thread being slowly hijacked? FWIW, with few exceptions, I work on a project at a time.. Track first, then mix.. And I'm not a prolific song-writer. I'll probably rewire my gear less in my lifetime less than most of you do in a few months. Do TTbays sound any better than your basic 1/4" patchbay? Yes, the thread has been hijacked. Sorry! We should get back to the original topic, but patchbays are incredibly useful and an interesting subject on their own. TT/Elco patchbays are NOT poor man's territory, although Ericn has good tips on how to lower the cost. As for sound, there is no difference, as long as both types are working well. The difference, and this is crucial for any pro, is the reliability. With a client in the room, or money on the line, you do not want a cheap patchbay crackling, or intermittent, or rolling off the top end, or lowering the gain because of a bad jack that has seen three years of hard use! On the other hand, if you are a songwriter working on your own (moi) you just take a minute to fix the problem, or patch around it until you can replace the jack.
|
|
|
Post by guitfiddler on Oct 17, 2016 20:21:36 GMT -6
I'm getting ready to BAY! Not looking forward to this...
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,014
Member is Online
|
Post by ericn on Oct 17, 2016 20:23:55 GMT -6
A used solder bay is cheap and a great way to learn to solder which can over time lower your cabling and gear costs! Personally it and the CAPI 500 rack are probably 2 of the best ways to learn to solder, soldering is the gateway to treasure trove of great gear for less and you get to learn what goes inside the gear!
|
|
|
Post by guitfiddler on Oct 17, 2016 20:24:47 GMT -6
Delete this message please
|
|
|
Post by Ward on Oct 17, 2016 20:29:53 GMT -6
Delete this message please Too late now...
|
|
|
Post by guitfiddler on Oct 17, 2016 20:34:59 GMT -6
Bedtime for sure
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Oct 17, 2016 20:52:15 GMT -6
Funny, I've gone in the exact opposite direction. At Filmways Heider, Maryland Sound and Alpha Audio, it was all Elco. And Bill is right; if you have those little Elco tools, you can reconfigure a rack to accomodate a new piece of gear relatively easily. No question a TT bay is going to last. So when I did my studio, I bought an ADC TT bay from Mr Patchbay with the punch block on the back. Easy to reconfigure, right? Well, when you are building the early versions of your studio rig, and you don't know your workflow yet, and you trade out pieces of gear as you figure out what works best, it's a major PITA, IMO. I ended up selling the ADC and buying 3 Samson S patch. All my gear and snakes are terminated in 1/4 in TRS. I can reconfigure the whole bay if I want to, with no tools other than my ten (8.5 actually) little fingers. To be fair, since I'm not a pro these days, my time is my own, so reliability is not as big an issue. A new S Patch costs $100, but I haven't needed one yet. For someone starting out, or at some sort of mid-point, I would recommend this route. It's more forgiving of the learning curve. Once you have figured out your workflow, and 75% of your gear is stuff you know well and will never sell, then, by all means! a TT bay, terminated with Elco connectors is absolutely top of the line and worth the investment. To clarify how I set up my bays, its a bit different than what you described....swapping out gear and workflow has never been easier for me. I've re-soldered and reconfigured more bays that i care to remember, and now, I'll NEVER have to do it again. My setup is not how you described. At the risk of oversimplification - all TT bays terminate on the rear of the rack or rear of the bay with Female Elco's. For gear, all racks terminate on the rear of the rack with female Elco's which pigtail back to XLR's for the gear. All interconnects are Male to Male Elco's. Rear of Rack elco's terminate with XLR's at the gear end. If gear terminates in TRS, then I use a short pigtail to transfer over. It's simple, elegant, stone cold reliable and the easiest bay I've ever had for completely reconfiguring workflow, gear or to completely reconceptualize. For instance, I recently changed from a console / tape / DAW based configuration to a Hybrid configuration very easily and with no desoldering or reconfiguring needed. Swapping out consoles, gear, and even workflow is simple. Actually, I was able to completely swap out consoles, and move the studio and reset up in 4 hours or so - console, 7 racks full of gear, all interconnects. As for the guys wanting to jump straight to gear discussion and bypass the bays...... Like I mentioned earlier, if you bypass the bays, your gear will get used a lot less.... Been there, done that.... Cheers, bp
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Oct 17, 2016 21:04:49 GMT -6
A used solder bay is cheap and a great way to learn to solder which can over time lower your cabling and gear costs! Personally it and the CAPI 500 rack are probably 2 of the best ways to learn to solder, soldering is the gateway to treasure trove of great gear for less and you get to learn what goes inside the gear! I agree with this. One warning though. If you hard solder a snake onto the patch bay lugs, and terminate the other end with XLR's or TRS or whatever at the rear of your gear rack, you WILL end up redoing this - probably many times - as stratboy mentioned earlier. The secret sauce is choosing a multi pin connector system of interconnects. I chose 90 pin (72 contacts used) Elco's for their superior interconnect, 24 channel wide density, and gold plating, but DB25's will work also. A patch bay is ALL ABOUT poor boy hybrid. Having a load of outboard without a well designed bay is kind of silly IMO. Patchbays are the very heart of a hybrid setup. Discussing them is ompletely on topic, and completely "poor man" if you do the work yourself - DIY. If you design and lay it out right up front, you can completely scale it up as your gear grows. EBAY and/or MrPatchbay are your friends.
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 17, 2016 21:20:28 GMT -6
Good advice here. When I had my analogue home studio in the late 80's, a patch bay was a no-brainer, you had to have one, and a good one. My rack's still small, but once I get another piece or two, I'm getting a patch bay.
Of course, it might change with time, and certainly would change with more money, but here's where I'm trying to go. My thinking is this, go in all analogue, try to get it right the first time, use one or two compressors right then and there if need be, with the possible exception of using the UAD Ocean Way plug as a re-room trick.
Mix with automation, plugs that help, like track EQ, UAD's Oxide, Slate's VBC, DeEsser, some guitar effects, etc. whatever..
"Master" with 2 EQP-1A's and the Stam SSL.
So, I'll need: New Apollo, or an Apollo satellite and a different interface like a Focusrite or a Symphony II A Neve style pre (RTZ or a Stam). I have the Dizengoff D4 right now, and the Apollo pres. WA2A WA76 Summing mixer Maybe a hardware reverb and delay, (probably a Lexicon. I would love a Bricasti, but Lexicon's are still great) 2 EQP-WA EQ's Stam SSL 2 bus comp
* I'd love a better D/A - A/D, but will wait on that for a while.
Do you guys see any flaws with my thinking? This is for a singer/songwriter's demos, (possibly released as a album)
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,014
Member is Online
|
Post by ericn on Oct 17, 2016 21:32:03 GMT -6
A used solder bay is cheap and a great way to learn to solder which can over time lower your cabling and gear costs! Personally it and the CAPI 500 rack are probably 2 of the best ways to learn to solder, soldering is the gateway to treasure trove of great gear for less and you get to learn what goes inside the gear! I agree with this. One warning though. If you hard solder a snake onto the patch bay lugs, and terminate the other end with XLR's or TRS or whatever at the rear of your gear rack, you WILL end up redoing this - probably many times - as stratboy mentioned earlier. The secret sauce is choosing a multi pin connector system of interconnects. I chose 90 pin (72 contacts used) Elco's for their superior interconnect, 24 channel wide density, and gold plating, but DB25's will work also. And having a load of outboard without a well designed bay is kind of silly IMO. Patchbays are the very heart of a hybrid setup. Discussing them is ompletely on topic, and completely "poor man" if you do the work yourself - DIY. If you design and lay it out right up front, you can completely scale it up as your gear grows. EBAY and/or MrPatchbay are your friends. I agree with having a high density breakout,Elcos are great but no longer standard D sub are cheap and we have 2 current pinout standards they suck they are an absolute pita to work with but I use them! if you learn to solder dsubs you can pretty much solder anything! Being the cheap skate I use Mogami W3159 AES/EBU $0.33ft for everything and wire ties or heat shrink for homemaid snakes. You can also crimp D subs. Good clean organized infrastructure is the secret to being a quality cheapskate do it right once, rather than pouring more cash in later and having an organized system makes it way easier to interstate new gear! A great thing to have is a bay that is wired to have some polarity reverse ( simply switching the hot cold on a pair) some mults or single splinters again just some wire between jacks, some pads ( very simple circuit , ground lifts, - to ground, and some isolation transformers. When you realize how much cheaper and simple it is to have these things DIY on the bay your audio life just gets so much easier and you look like a magician solving problems by where you plug in. Cutting down the number of adaptors you might need by having just an inventory with all the plugs you might need on cables that plug into your bays is just friggin cool!
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,014
Member is Online
|
Post by ericn on Oct 17, 2016 21:36:03 GMT -6
Good advice here. When I had my analogue home studio in the late 80's, a patch bay was a no-brainer, you had to have one, and a good one. My rack's still small, but once I get another piece or two, I'm getting a patch bay. Of course, it might change with time, and certainly would change with more money, but here's where I'm trying to go. My thinking is this, go in all analogue, try to get it right the first time, use one or two compressors right then and there if need be, with the possible exception of using the UAD Ocean Way plug as a re-room trick. Mix with automation, plugs that help, like track EQ, UAD's Oxide, Slate's VBC, DeEsser, some guitar effects, etc. whatever.. "Master" with 2 EQP-1A's and the Stam SSL. So, I'll need: New Apollo, or an Apollo satellite and a different interface like a Focusrite or a Symphony II A Neve style pre (RTZ or a Stam). I have the Dizengoff D4 right now, and the Apollo pres. WA2A WA76 Summing mixer Maybe a hardware reverb and delay, (probably a Lexicon. I would love a Bricasti, but Lexicon's are still great) 2 EQP-WA EQ's Stam SSL 2 bus comp * I'd love a better D/A - A/D, but will wait on that for a while. Do you guys see any flaws with my thinking? This is for a singer/songwriter's demos, (possibly released as a album) Martin I would add 2 of the most used pieces in my loft Cable tester Little mixer like a 1202 ! Having a little analog mixer with preamps solves so many little problems or just cuts the time to get things done in a pinch!
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Oct 17, 2016 21:36:51 GMT -6
Good advice here. When I had my analogue home studio in the late 80's, a patch bay was a no-brainer, you had to have one, and a good one. My rack's still small, but once I get another piece or two, I'm getting a patch bay. Of course, it might change with time, and certainly would change with more money, but here's where I'm trying to go. My thinking is this, go in all analogue, try to get it right the first time, use one or two compressors right then and there if need be, with the possible exception of the UAD Ocean Way plug as a re-room trick. Mix with automation, plugs that help, like track EQ, UAD's Oxide, Slate's VBC, Desser, some guitar effects, etc. whatever.. "Master" with 2 EQP-1A's and the Stam SSL. So, I'll need: New Apollo, or an Apollo satellite and a different interface like a Focusrite or a Symphony II A Neve style pre (RTZ or a Stam). I have the Dizengoff D4 right now, and the Apollo pres. WA2A WA76 Summing mixer Hardware reverb and delay, (probably a Lexicon. I would love a Bricasti, but some Lexicon's are still great) 2 EQP-WA EQ's Stam SSL 2 bus comp * I'd love a better D/A A/D, but will wait on that for a while. Do you guys see any flaws with my thinking?You can get it 100% right the first time.....but things change. It's the nature of a studio. At least for me. The more things stay the same, the more they change. Second, IMO (and the opinion of many that I respect immensely), summing mixers are a phantom mirage. A classic case of the emperor's got no clothes on syndrome. If you look inside a Dangerous summing box, there's no iron, no discrete op amps, just digital switching, and some resistors, connectors and relays. No significant mojo happening there. Passive summing boxes - same thing. Mojo happens in the iron and discrete analog electronics of good quality make up gain - not in the summing itself. So essentially you can get the same thing or better (depending on the box) with discrete iron based hardware on your two buss, or better yet, on your two buss and on individual mix elements in a hybrid workflow. For my money - inserting something like a Silver Bullet or Manley Varimu or 1073 or some other type of discrete classA iron into a hybrid situation is a significantly better and easier than a simple summing box solution. My biased opinion....but one that I stand behind and make work for better mixes in my real life world. Console is up for sale as hybrid has eclipsed it for my current needs.
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 17, 2016 22:20:01 GMT -6
Food for though drill, thanks. I've liked what I've heard with the D-Box, but would only think about it when all the other pieces have been acquired. I'm really surprised by your description of the insides of the D-Box, and I believe you.
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Oct 17, 2016 22:25:40 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by john on Oct 17, 2016 22:26:53 GMT -6
I've been using the Samson bays (3 of them) going on 4 years now. No problems. Well, one problem... every 6 months or so I come up with a new "better" way and end up spending a day resetting everything. One of these days is coming up as a matter of fact.
|
|
|
Post by ragan on Oct 17, 2016 22:29:58 GMT -6
I've run stereo mixes through 1073s and 312 style preamps and, while they both do add some notecablr harmonic content, they don't do the extra separation thing the D Box does for me. Totally different "effects". Preamps take take the mix and add harmonic goo, the D Box adds nor harmonic goo but improves the soundstage/imaging.
Subtle for sure, but there.
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Oct 17, 2016 22:32:33 GMT -6
Subtle for sure, but there. As subtle as a $200 high end IEC cable? Sorry, sorry, sooooorrry. In light of recents, I couldn't resist...... Forgive me.....
|
|
|
Post by ChaseUTB on Oct 17, 2016 23:46:41 GMT -6
Food for though drill, thanks. I've liked what I've heard with the D-Box, but would only think about it when all the other pieces have been acquired. I'm really surprised by your description of the insides of the D-Box, and I believe you. I'm very happy with my SF Apollo quad still running on FW you don't need a new Apollo, you would need an additional line level converter that has a digital connection where it can communicate with your Apollo for all your HW inserts if the Apollo doesn't have enough I/o... that's also where the patch bay can come in handy and help too. Also waiting on a preorder Stam unit may take awhile so if you are planning on releasing an album factor the wait period... No summing is worth it IMO unless it has beefy class discrete circuit with juicy op amps and transformers. Daw sum perfectly Mics are very important as well...The Neve style pres are great idea...The warm audio eqp-wa now has a gain trim for the tube stage so they will be much easier to use for stereo buss or stereo use period ( mixing and tracking ) how good is your acoustic treatment ? $300 in DIY acoustic panels / traps can do amazing wonders as well, ( not as slutty as big $ mojo gear ) then when your hear the result you will realize how slutty it is because everything will sound better and you will appreciate your room more. All I got for now
|
|
|
Post by ragan on Oct 18, 2016 0:36:35 GMT -6
Subtle for sure, but there. As subtle as a $200 high end IEC cable? Sorry, sorry, sooooorrry. In light of recents, I couldn't resist...... Forgive me..... Heheh. Well, it exists (the D Box summing effect) and it's something I've picked out in about a dozen carefully done blind AB's so, no, I don't think it's quite as "subtle" as an expensive-er piece of IEC cable
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2016 7:04:23 GMT -6
so on the subject of a few pieces of good gear - what makes a really good eq(outboard of course, digital is probably a whole other argument)? Why are some deemed more musical than others - even those with seemingly less adjustability - can't get my head around this... oh and what exactly are they "equalising" anyway? thanks
|
|
|
Post by papag on Oct 18, 2016 7:23:17 GMT -6
Honestly, without being endorsed or wanting to ramble on, give a try to the Acustica plugins. Since they are based on sampling from real gear, the mojo and tone are definitely there. This has been a game changer for me. Heard many good things about Sand on the forums. The thing is, I'm running a 2012 Mac Mini quad core and, from what I've heard, Acustica stuff will only play nice on a very high spec PC.
|
|
|
Post by avgatzeblouz on Oct 18, 2016 7:28:28 GMT -6
Honestly, without being endorsed or wanting to ramble on, give a try to the Acustica plugins. Since they are based on sampling from real gear, the mojo and tone are definitely there. This has been a game changer for me. Heard many good things about Sand on the forums. The thing is, I'm running a 2012 Mac Mini quad core and, from what I've heard, Acustica stuff will only play nice on a very high spec PC. Well on an ok computer, you will run less instances, that's all. It is still less expensive than owning all the hardware they sampled. Just download a demo and have fun.
|
|