|
|
Post by bluegrassdan on Oct 11, 2016 18:03:07 GMT -6
Here is a shootout between the Audio Maintenance Limited (AML) ez1073 and the Vintech 473. I built Colin's 1U AML kit over the weekend and absolutely love it so far. You can hear the comparison between both preamps with no output attenuation and the second comparison with extra saturation. All files are level matched. www.dropbox.com/sh/xb4fscgzqcp5mdy/AAA6PEK1wc0Mkfz8NrFBSDrAa?dl=0Curious to know everyone's thoughts. Dan |
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 11, 2016 18:17:35 GMT -6
Good post bluegrassdan, and welcome to the forum! I listened to the first track of both pres on my monitors. The AML was more transparent, less compressed more of the higher frequencies where the vocal gains intelligibility and it seemed a little bigger. I'd take that one if you offered me my choice.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,992 
|
Post by ericn on Oct 11, 2016 18:35:34 GMT -6
Here is a shootout between the Audio Maintenance Limited (AML) ez1073 and the Vintech 473. I built Colin's 1U AML kit over the weekend and absolutely love it so far. You can hear the comparison between both preamps with no output attenuation and the second comparison with extra saturation. All files are level matched. www.dropbox.com/sh/xb4fscgzqcp5mdy/AAA6PEK1wc0Mkfz8NrFBSDrAa?dl=0Curious to know everyone's thoughts. Dan Welcome to RGO Dan! the AML is in the list of so many " Need to build a couple of these lists" |
|
|
|
Post by rowmat on Oct 11, 2016 18:43:59 GMT -6
Just to throw a curveball into these transformer based micpre comparisons.
I have seen 1073 style preamp shootouts where both pres use identical components (same model Carnhill transformers etc) and the same circuit topology yet one is judged to have more presence/harshness etc. while the other is darker/smoother etc.
I suspect some of these variations could be caused by differences in the output transformer loading.
Typically a 600 ohm termination resistor should be inserted across the output transformer when driving high impedance inputs and removed when feeding 'old school' 600 ohm equipment.
I never see this discussed or that the equipment under test is checked to confirm the loading is correct.
Incorrect loading instantly negates any test results so the loading should always be checked and set correctly before any tests are conducted.
|
|
|
|
Post by bluegrassdan on Oct 11, 2016 18:44:23 GMT -6
The Vintech is a fine pre, but it can have this harshness in the high mids that's tough to put your finger on. The AML seems to have a bigger bottom, no harshness, and a more extended top end. It's all subtle, but significant in my view.
|
|
|
|
Post by bluegrassdan on Oct 11, 2016 18:46:48 GMT -6
Typically a 600 ohm termination resistor should be inserted across the output transformer when driving high impedance inputs and removed when feeding 'old school' 600 ohm equipment. I never see this discussed or that the equipment under test is checked to confirm the loading is correct. Incorrect loading instantly negates any test results so the loading should always be checked and set correctly before any tests are conducted. My AML build has the 600 ohm termination resistor. Can anyone confirm whether or not the Vintech has such? |
|
|
|
Post by rowmat on Oct 11, 2016 18:54:01 GMT -6
Typically a 600 ohm termination resistor should be inserted across the output transformer when driving high impedance inputs and removed when feeding 'old school' 600 ohm equipment. I never see this discussed or that the equipment under test is checked to confirm the loading is correct. Incorrect loading instantly negates any test results so the loading should always be checked and set correctly before any tests are conducted. My AML build has the 600 ohm termination resistor. Can anyone confirm whether or not the Vintech has such? Maybe contact Vintech or, if the Vintech is out of warranty, take a look inside. |
|
|
|
Post by rowmat on Oct 11, 2016 18:59:00 GMT -6
Square wave response demonstrating transformer ringing in a Great River MP-2NV with and without loading.  |
|
|
|
Post by bluegrassdan on Oct 11, 2016 18:59:07 GMT -6
Vintech specs confirm it is also 600 Ohms.
|
|
|
|
Post by rowmat on Oct 11, 2016 19:04:02 GMT -6
Vintech specs confirm it is also 600 Ohms. Personally I would still be curious enough to check inside. Our Seventh Circle N72's have a removeable jumper to set the loading of the O/P transformer. As we use a mixture of 600 ohm and higher impedance gear I'm about to fit toggle switches to all of our transformer SCA pre's as removing the pre's to change the loading is a PITA. |
|
|
|
Post by donr on Oct 11, 2016 20:14:19 GMT -6
I'm a guitar player, and not a professional recordist, to my ear I preferred the AML without the output attenuation and the Vintech when the pre was pushed. The Vintech was darker than the AML in both cases, but I thought the Vintech more euphonic when driven harder.
I could see choosing the AML when clarity is desired.
|
|
|
|
Post by swurveman on Oct 12, 2016 7:05:55 GMT -6
I'm a guitar player, and not a professional recordist, to my ear I preferred the AML without the output attenuation and the Vintech when the pre was pushed. The Vintech was darker than the AML in both cases, but I thought the Vintech more euphonic when driven harder. I could see choosing the AML when clarity is desired. Vintech suggests "in general, it is best to keep the “Output Gain” potentiometer set to all the way up (or close to it) and to use the “input sensitivity” switch to adjust the operating level of the microphone preamplifier." I don't know what the reasoning for that is. |
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on Oct 12, 2016 7:49:56 GMT -6
because input sensitivity is preamp headroom, the master gain definition, and output is a secondary trim.
|
|
|
|
Post by swurveman on Oct 12, 2016 11:06:24 GMT -6
because input sensitivity is preamp headroom, the master gain definition, and output is a secondary trim. Thanks for your reply EmRR. I have the Vintech X73i and always do what they recommend- keep the output at the maximum and increase the input sensitivity till I get to a good level (~16dbfs) in the DAW. So, if I back off the output and increase the input sensitivity knob I am saturating/pushing the transformer more. Correct? And isn't that what Donr liked about the Vintech when he said he liked "when the pre was pushed"? That's why I don't understand why Vintech recommends "in most cases" having the output full gain. I don't have any electronics background, or know enough about the guts of the Vintech. So, this stuff interests me.... |
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on Oct 12, 2016 11:23:45 GMT -6
I'm not sure how that circuit is done, if it's like a fader followed by a make-up fixed gain amp driving the output, or a passive attenuator after the output transformer.
donr could easily mean the amplification circuit is pushed, with no particular increase in transformer artifacts, depending on the circuit.
The Vintech recommendation follows all normal and professional protocols for good sound. Dirt doesn't fall within that protocol, doesn't mean it's bad, it's just not normal operation procedure. Remember this whole pushed thing is a relatively (last decade or so) new fad, not that it wasn't done before, but was never viewed as standard by the vast majority of engineers. Now we have a large number of people who think you can't use a preamp that doesn't have the ability to 'saturate', which really never came outta anyone's mouth until fairly recently.
|
|
|
|
Post by ariel on Oct 17, 2016 4:33:05 GMT -6
Vintech specs confirm it is also 600 Ohms. Personally I would still be curious enough to check inside. Our Seventh Circle N72's have a removeable jumper to set the loading of the O/P transformer. As we use a mixture of 600 ohm and higher impedance gear I'm about to fit toggle switches to all of our transformer SCA pre's as removing the pre's to change the loading is a PITA. I was just looking at the N72's, have you done a shootout or comparison of them and any one of the neve types preamps such as BAE, Vintech etc ? I was curious as to how they sound as everyone speaks high praises of them. |
|
|
|
Post by Ward on Oct 17, 2016 8:51:36 GMT -6
Be that as it may, the outputs on my Vintechs are usually set at 12 o'clock and I push the input a little harder. Especially on snare drums.
|
|
|
|
Post by ariel on Oct 17, 2016 13:10:15 GMT -6
Bluegrass Dan, thanks for posting this. Any chance you would be able to to the same test but with a drum set ? Mono room mic or even snare / Kick . I would love to hear the difference on something with transients.
|
|
|
|
Post by bluegrassdan on Oct 17, 2016 13:53:19 GMT -6
Bluegrass Dan, thanks for posting this. Any chance you would be able to to the same test but with a drum set ? Mono room mic or even snare / Kick . I would love to hear the difference on something with transients. I'm a bit backed up on work right now, but that's a great idea. Let me try to get to that when I can. Decided though, I'm gonna build another asap. Gotta stock up on incredibly high quality kit builds like this while they're available. There have been several good ones that are no longer offered for one reason or another. |
|
|
|
Post by rowmat on Oct 17, 2016 14:07:48 GMT -6
Personally I would still be curious enough to check inside. Our Seventh Circle N72's have a removeable jumper to set the loading of the O/P transformer. As we use a mixture of 600 ohm and higher impedance gear I'm about to fit toggle switches to all of our transformer SCA pre's as removing the pre's to change the loading is a PITA. I was just looking at the N72's, have you done a shootout or comparison of them and any one of the neve types preamps such as BAE, Vintech etc ? I was curious as to how they sound as everyone speaks high praises of them. We have a pair of Heritage Audio 8173's and 6673's. With the EQ's bypassed on the Heritage's the N72's are in the same ballpark as the Heritage's as they both have the typical low mid thickness common to Class A Neves but I do find the Heritage's to be slightly brighter overall than the N72's. I suspect this may have more to do with output transformer loading and after I finish fitting the external selectable load impedance switches to the N72's I'll experiment with differing output load termination resistors on the Heritage's to see how much variation there is in the sound. |
|
|
|
Post by ariel on Oct 18, 2016 0:48:25 GMT -6
Thanks for the replies guys ! Listening to the test files I find that the vintech has an upper mid / top end boost of sorts. The AML sounding a bit balance throughout the vocal where as the vintech sounded a bit more fwd with the hi mind extra bit. This reminded me of a BAE vs NEVE DPA vocal test where the BAE was like the AML. I think I would use the AML on vocals and acoustics and the vintechs would be great for percussion and drums. Whenever you have time to the drum test  that would be most excellent ! I find that drums and vocals are the things that really let me hear a preamp completely. |
|
|
|
Post by bluegrassdan on Oct 19, 2016 19:04:03 GMT -6
I agree. Just bought the components for another ez1073. This is one serious kit.
|
|
|
|
Post by hasbeen on Oct 20, 2016 10:23:30 GMT -6
If anyone has a pair of rack mount ez1073 they want to trade for a pair of 500 series please PM me? Thanks
|
|
|
|
Post by Ward on Oct 20, 2016 11:03:15 GMT -6
Thanks for the replies guys ! Listening to the test files I find that the vintech has an upper mid / top end boost of sorts. The AML sounding a bit balance throughout the vocal where as the vintech sounded a bit more fwd with the hi mind extra bit. This reminded me of a BAE vs NEVE DPA vocal test where the BAE was like the AML. I think I would use the AML on vocals and acoustics and the vintechs would be great for percussion and drums. Whenever you have time to the drum test that would be most excellent ! I find that drums and vocals are the things that really let me hear a preamp completely. There is the off chance that someone else here may have the same experience that I have with this. I have found that The Vintech 473 sounds different to the X73 and X73i, all set the same with EQs nulled. Furthermore, I really like the sound of X73 over many other 1073 designs, even Neve's own in many examples. |
|
|
|
Post by ChaseUTB on Oct 20, 2016 12:17:22 GMT -6
Thanks for the replies guys ! Listening to the test files I find that the vintech has an upper mid / top end boost of sorts. The AML sounding a bit balance throughout the vocal where as the vintech sounded a bit more fwd with the hi mind extra bit. This reminded me of a BAE vs NEVE DPA vocal test where the BAE was like the AML. I think I would use the AML on vocals and acoustics and the vintechs would be great for percussion and drums. Whenever you have time to the drum test that would be most excellent ! I find that drums and vocals are the things that really let me hear a preamp completely. There is the off chance that someone else here may have the same experience that I have with this. I have found that The Vintech 473 sounds different to the X73 and X73i, all set the same with EQs nulled. Furthermore, I really like the sound of X73 over many other 1073 designs, even Neve's own in many examples. Hello ward isn't the x73 hand built and the others not ? What would account for the bintech models sounding different from each other... Vintech used to always get ragged on GS, that's has stopped though, and infor one have always been interested in their gear... with the Upton success, I think more people will start to look into Bibtech if the association is made... |
|
that would be most excellent ! I find that drums and vocals are the things that really let me hear a preamp completely.
