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Post by illacov on Nov 18, 2016 9:40:11 GMT -6
Analog gear is a shorter path to success if you really know how to use it. Nothing beats it in my opinion during tracking or mixing. Cut a vocal with compression to digital, add some analog eq, push play sounds great move on. And yes to my ears, analog compression sounds better, has better grab and better long term benefits in a production, ESPECIALLY during tracking. Here's my major complaint through it all. Plugins exist in a vacuum. They don't interact. A standalone Neve 1073 to an LA2A is literally the output transformer of the Neve connecting to the input transformer of the LA2A. To negate the phenomenon implied by this is to deny physics. This is true for many recording chains and scenarios. Somehow this is not part of the grand scheme for the digital plugin world. It's also why during mixing, if I'm using a hardware insert in digital, I always hit a preamp (via line in or DI) before the compressor if at all possible. This way I can get the audio to act like it just came off the mic preamp to the compressor, rather than the 50 ohm or 250 ohm rated output of a DAC going to said compressor. Gets the audio "live," again IMHO. Thanks -L. In normal times I would agree but we are living in the middle of a change. I say that since I made a very very positive experience with Slates VCC and VBC. It shows me that someone can create great sounding digital tools. It does not mean that I sell my hardware tommorow but its a sign that I will downsize my rack. Your Zulu could be one tool running on the 2 bus - why not. Yesterday's high end gear is today's affordable used gear. My Wheatstone SP5A console cost me $700. That's a 52 input desk with post EQ and post fader direct outs! Transformers on every input, P&G faders. New the faders on this thing cost $99 each! We are sitting on a poor man's gold mine of affordable gear that performs like its life depended on it. No my friend this is the time to FILL those racks. Learn the same lesson I learned 23 going on 24 years ago. You don't need 300 individual 1176s and 50 LA2As to make a record work. You need reliable compressors (1 of each type is enough unless you do alot of stereo work, so get 2!) and those bits of time that you print your sections might seem slower than plugins but in reality they will end of being about the same or less time. If you keep going back to your plugin window and tweaking for 15 seconds or so at a time and in an hour you do that 3 or 4 times or if you adjust trim volume on a clip to get the vocal to sit right, nudging this, tweaking that. Those bits of time keep adding up. Versus, if you have a smoking good analog compressor for that source and you print it, might even be a cut and paste sort of thing ya dig? (Song dependent), but if you nail that print (so yes you have to get good at nailing prints!) then you'll hear that sound, smile and move on. A good portion of this printing can happen very early on in the mixing process. After you do your broomstick mix listen through, you could very quickly patch in 3 or 4 compressors where they need to go or EQ etc...and maybe even some mic pres and get to business very quickly. 8 channels per pass (or more) will take the same 4 minutes or 5 minutes that 1 channel will take. Its all about the workflow. It takes me 5 seconds to right click in Reaper and drop ReaInsert onto a track which is pre patched to whatever signal path I want. Sometimes I don't even touch the outboard LOL Its just doing its thing already, the rest is automation where its needed and away we go! Print. I can get some really great results with strictly plugins I just feel like something is missing when its all over, I just know things would be different if I used an actual SSL type compressor or even a dbx on the snare and the bass. Of course if you just had Zulu it would be a big change for you, but before you finally park it on the 2 buss, I'd suggest you go to town printing your tracks/busses with it. Even your reverb busses and delays. All that stuff benefits immensely from Zulu. And if you're like me, I always print tracks/busses this way DAC>Mic pre/Channel strip w. EQ> Zulu>ADC. Or DAC>Mic pre/Channel strip w. EQ> Compressor> Zulu>ADC. Things change very quickly for the better when you begin printing that way. Even on the clean stuff. And yes, if you have a strictly ITB setup but you add Zulu, it definitely modifies the way you approach your plugins and how you hit them. And it will sound pretty damn good this way. Not quite as mind blowing as using an actual tube compressor, a broadcast limiter on mono drum overhead or a real opto based device etc...but again that's a personal choice for everybody  Thanks -L. |
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Post by ragan on Nov 18, 2016 10:05:56 GMT -6
In normal times I would agree but we are living in the middle of a change. I say that since I made a very very positive experience with Slates VCC and VBC. It shows me that someone can create great sounding digital tools. It does not mean that I sell my hardware tommorow but its a sign that I will downsize my rack. Your Zulu could be one tool running on the 2 bus - why not. Yesterday's high end gear is today's affordable used gear. My Wheatstone SP5A console cost me $700. That's a 52 input desk with post EQ and post fader direct outs! Transformers on every input, P&G faders. New the faders on this thing cost $99 each! We are sitting on a poor man's gold mine of affordable gear that performs like its life depended on it. No my friend this is the time to FILL those racks. Learn the same lesson I learned 23 going on 24 years ago. You don't need 300 individual 1176s and 50 LA2As to make a record work. You need reliable compressors (1 of each type is enough unless you do alot of stereo work, so get 2!) and those bits of time that you print your sections might seem slower than plugins but in reality they will end of being about the same or less time. If you keep going back to your plugin window and tweaking for 15 seconds or so at a time and in an hour you do that 3 or 4 times or if you adjust trim volume on a clip to get the vocal to sit right, nudging this, tweaking that. Those bits of time keep adding up. Versus, if you have a smoking good analog compressor for that source and you print it, might even be a cut and paste sort of thing ya dig? (Song dependent), but if you nail that print (so yes you have to get good at nailing prints!) then you'll hear that sound, smile and move on. A good portion of this printing can happen very early on in the mixing process. After you do your broomstick mix listen through, you could very quickly patch in 3 or 4 compressors where they need to go or EQ etc...and maybe even some mic pres and get to business very quickly. 8 channels per pass (or more) will take the same 4 minutes or 5 minutes that 1 channel will take. Its all about the workflow. It takes me 5 seconds to right click in Reaper and drop ReaInsert onto a track which is pre patched to whatever signal path I want. Sometimes I don't even touch the outboard LOL Its just doing its thing already, the rest is automation where its needed and away we go! Print. I can get some really great results with strictly plugins I just feel like something is missing when its all over, I just know things would be different if I used an actual SSL type compressor or even a dbx on the snare and the bass. Of course if you just had Zulu it would be a big change for you, but before you finally park it on the 2 buss, I'd suggest you go to town printing your tracks/busses with it. Even your reverb busses and delays. All that stuff benefits immensely from Zulu. And if you're like me, I always print tracks/busses this way DAC>Mic pre/Channel strip w. EQ> Zulu>ADC. Or DAC>Mic pre/Channel strip w. EQ> Compressor> Zulu>ADC. Things change very quickly for the better when you begin printing that way. Even on the clean stuff. And yes, if you have a strictly ITB setup but you add Zulu, it definitely modifies the way you approach your plugins and how you hit them. And it will sound pretty damn good this way. Not quite as mind blowing as using an actual tube compressor, a broadcast limiter on mono drum overhead or a real opto based device etc...but again that's a personal choice for everybody Thanks -L. You just described my workflow, pal. Now get off the Internet and go approve them cases so I can get my greasy little hands on that Zulu! Ragan |
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Post by illacov on Nov 18, 2016 10:51:48 GMT -6
Yesterday's high end gear is today's affordable used gear. My Wheatstone SP5A console cost me $700. That's a 52 input desk with post EQ and post fader direct outs! Transformers on every input, P&G faders. New the faders on this thing cost $99 each! We are sitting on a poor man's gold mine of affordable gear that performs like its life depended on it. No my friend this is the time to FILL those racks. Learn the same lesson I learned 23 going on 24 years ago. You don't need 300 individual 1176s and 50 LA2As to make a record work. You need reliable compressors (1 of each type is enough unless you do alot of stereo work, so get 2!) and those bits of time that you print your sections might seem slower than plugins but in reality they will end of being about the same or less time. If you keep going back to your plugin window and tweaking for 15 seconds or so at a time and in an hour you do that 3 or 4 times or if you adjust trim volume on a clip to get the vocal to sit right, nudging this, tweaking that. Those bits of time keep adding up. Versus, if you have a smoking good analog compressor for that source and you print it, might even be a cut and paste sort of thing ya dig? (Song dependent), but if you nail that print (so yes you have to get good at nailing prints!) then you'll hear that sound, smile and move on. A good portion of this printing can happen very early on in the mixing process. After you do your broomstick mix listen through, you could very quickly patch in 3 or 4 compressors where they need to go or EQ etc...and maybe even some mic pres and get to business very quickly. 8 channels per pass (or more) will take the same 4 minutes or 5 minutes that 1 channel will take. Its all about the workflow. It takes me 5 seconds to right click in Reaper and drop ReaInsert onto a track which is pre patched to whatever signal path I want. Sometimes I don't even touch the outboard LOL Its just doing its thing already, the rest is automation where its needed and away we go! Print. I can get some really great results with strictly plugins I just feel like something is missing when its all over, I just know things would be different if I used an actual SSL type compressor or even a dbx on the snare and the bass. Of course if you just had Zulu it would be a big change for you, but before you finally park it on the 2 buss, I'd suggest you go to town printing your tracks/busses with it. Even your reverb busses and delays. All that stuff benefits immensely from Zulu. And if you're like me, I always print tracks/busses this way DAC>Mic pre/Channel strip w. EQ> Zulu>ADC. Or DAC>Mic pre/Channel strip w. EQ> Compressor> Zulu>ADC. Things change very quickly for the better when you begin printing that way. Even on the clean stuff. And yes, if you have a strictly ITB setup but you add Zulu, it definitely modifies the way you approach your plugins and how you hit them. And it will sound pretty damn good this way. Not quite as mind blowing as using an actual tube compressor, a broadcast limiter on mono drum overhead or a real opto based device etc...but again that's a personal choice for everybody Thanks -L. You just described my workflow, pal. Now get off the Internet and go approve them cases so I can get my greasy little hands on that Zulu! Ragan Definitely worth the wait. And what a delicious workflow it is! Thanks -L. |
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 18, 2016 11:27:17 GMT -6
In normal times I would agree but we are living in the middle of a change. I say that since I made a very very positive experience with Slates VCC and VBC. It shows me that someone can create great sounding digital tools. It does not mean that I sell my hardware tommorow but its a sign that I will downsize my rack. Your Zulu could be one tool running on the 2 bus - why not. Yesterday's high end gear is today's affordable used gear. My Wheatstone SP5A console cost me $700. That's a 52 input desk with post EQ and post fader direct outs! Transformers on every input, P&G faders. New the faders on this thing cost $99 each! We are sitting on a poor man's gold mine of affordable gear that performs like its life depended on it. No my friend this is the time to FILL those racks. Learn the same lesson I learned 23 going on 24 years ago. You don't need 300 individual 1176s and 50 LA2As to make a record work. You need reliable compressors (1 of each type is enough unless you do alot of stereo work, so get 2!) and those bits of time that you print your sections might seem slower than plugins but in reality they will end of being about the same or less time. If you keep going back to your plugin window and tweaking for 15 seconds or so at a time and in an hour you do that 3 or 4 times or if you adjust trim volume on a clip to get the vocal to sit right, nudging this, tweaking that. Those bits of time keep adding up. Versus, if you have a smoking good analog compressor for that source and you print it, might even be a cut and paste sort of thing ya dig? (Song dependent), but if you nail that print (so yes you have to get good at nailing prints!) then you'll hear that sound, smile and move on. A good portion of this printing can happen very early on in the mixing process. After you do your broomstick mix listen through, you could very quickly patch in 3 or 4 compressors where they need to go or EQ etc...and maybe even some mic pres and get to business very quickly. 8 channels per pass (or more) will take the same 4 minutes or 5 minutes that 1 channel will take. Its all about the workflow. It takes me 5 seconds to right click in Reaper and drop ReaInsert onto a track which is pre patched to whatever signal path I want. Sometimes I don't even touch the outboard LOL Its just doing its thing already, the rest is automation where its needed and away we go! Print. I can get some really great results with strictly plugins I just feel like something is missing when its all over, I just know things would be different if I used an actual SSL type compressor or even a dbx on the snare and the bass. Of course if you just had Zulu it would be a big change for you, but before you finally park it on the 2 buss, I'd suggest you go to town printing your tracks/busses with it. Even your reverb busses and delays. All that stuff benefits immensely from Zulu. And if you're like me, I always print tracks/busses this way DAC>Mic pre/Channel strip w. EQ> Zulu>ADC. Or DAC>Mic pre/Channel strip w. EQ> Compressor> Zulu>ADC. Things change very quickly for the better when you begin printing that way. Even on the clean stuff. And yes, if you have a strictly ITB setup but you add Zulu, it definitely modifies the way you approach your plugins and how you hit them. And it will sound pretty damn good this way. Not quite as mind blowing as using an actual tube compressor, a broadcast limiter on mono drum overhead or a real opto based device etc...but again that's a personal choice for everybody Thanks -L. You may missed the part that I use real gear? And with this I have all rights to disagree on the compression part for example. I very often picked the Klanghelm instead of real gear. And VCC, with a little bit of parallel two-bus compressions, acts a lot like my mixing console. I have to lay down music if I can work on different tunes in parallel its worth the hassle to rethink the workflow. If the future shows that VCC also can replace the console on higher track counts... - in this case the console will leave the studio. |
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Post by illacov on Nov 18, 2016 12:49:19 GMT -6
Yesterday's high end gear is today's affordable used gear. My Wheatstone SP5A console cost me $700. That's a 52 input desk with post EQ and post fader direct outs! Transformers on every input, P&G faders. New the faders on this thing cost $99 each! We are sitting on a poor man's gold mine of affordable gear that performs like its life depended on it. No my friend this is the time to FILL those racks. Learn the same lesson I learned 23 going on 24 years ago. You don't need 300 individual 1176s and 50 LA2As to make a record work. You need reliable compressors (1 of each type is enough unless you do alot of stereo work, so get 2!) and those bits of time that you print your sections might seem slower than plugins but in reality they will end of being about the same or less time. If you keep going back to your plugin window and tweaking for 15 seconds or so at a time and in an hour you do that 3 or 4 times or if you adjust trim volume on a clip to get the vocal to sit right, nudging this, tweaking that. Those bits of time keep adding up. Versus, if you have a smoking good analog compressor for that source and you print it, might even be a cut and paste sort of thing ya dig? (Song dependent), but if you nail that print (so yes you have to get good at nailing prints!) then you'll hear that sound, smile and move on. A good portion of this printing can happen very early on in the mixing process. After you do your broomstick mix listen through, you could very quickly patch in 3 or 4 compressors where they need to go or EQ etc...and maybe even some mic pres and get to business very quickly. 8 channels per pass (or more) will take the same 4 minutes or 5 minutes that 1 channel will take. Its all about the workflow. It takes me 5 seconds to right click in Reaper and drop ReaInsert onto a track which is pre patched to whatever signal path I want. Sometimes I don't even touch the outboard LOL Its just doing its thing already, the rest is automation where its needed and away we go! Print. I can get some really great results with strictly plugins I just feel like something is missing when its all over, I just know things would be different if I used an actual SSL type compressor or even a dbx on the snare and the bass. Of course if you just had Zulu it would be a big change for you, but before you finally park it on the 2 buss, I'd suggest you go to town printing your tracks/busses with it. Even your reverb busses and delays. All that stuff benefits immensely from Zulu. And if you're like me, I always print tracks/busses this way DAC>Mic pre/Channel strip w. EQ> Zulu>ADC. Or DAC>Mic pre/Channel strip w. EQ> Compressor> Zulu>ADC. Things change very quickly for the better when you begin printing that way. Even on the clean stuff. And yes, if you have a strictly ITB setup but you add Zulu, it definitely modifies the way you approach your plugins and how you hit them. And it will sound pretty damn good this way. Not quite as mind blowing as using an actual tube compressor, a broadcast limiter on mono drum overhead or a real opto based device etc...but again that's a personal choice for everybody Thanks -L. You may missed the part that I use real gear? And with this I have all rights to disagree on the compression part for example. I very often picked the Klanghelm instead of real gear. And VCC, with a little bit of parallel two-bus compressions, acts a lot like my mixing console. I have to lay down music if I can work on different tunes in parallel its worth the hassle to rethink the workflow. If the future shows that VCC also can replace the console on higher track counts... - in this case the console will leave the studio. I didn't miss the part about you owning real gear, I said this was the perfect time to give that gear some company LOL Thanks -L. |
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