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Post by drbill on Oct 5, 2016 14:27:33 GMT -6
Seen this before. More looking for some rack shots, just to see what you're really working with these days. Oh man....thats going to take some effort. I've got clients flying in later today and I'm prepping for them. I'll try to get to it, but it may have to be next week if I can't swing it today. Remind me please if you don't see them.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Oct 5, 2016 14:32:15 GMT -6
Seen this before. More looking for some rack shots, just to see what you're really working with these days. Oh man....thats going to take some effort. I've got clients flying in later today and I'm prepping for them. I'll try to get to it, but it may have to be next week if I can't swing it today. Remind me please if you don't see them. ...just a couple snaps with the smartphone will do the trick. Would be quicker than the few sentences you just typed.
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Post by svart on Oct 5, 2016 14:37:20 GMT -6
Plugins are great. But no comparison to outboard gear. Zero doubts. Can you afford analog gear? I dunno. Can you afford not to use analog gear? I can't. A single side by side comparison may lead one to believe there's not much difference. But stack up 20 pieces of analog outboard vs. 20 plugins and tell me there's no difference or minimal difference? I don't think so. Relying exclusively on plugins is like showing up to a gunfight with a pocket knife. Yeah, you can still win, but you have to be WAY better. Conversely, if you HAD used analog gear, it would have been so much easier, and so much better. I still use plugins. AFTER all my outboard is instantiated on inserts. Hybrid style. My (obviously) EXTREMELY biased opinion. I''m with drbill on this. I Love analog and love the workflow and recall of digital. So it's outboard first, inserted on the most crucial mix elements... then plugins - all configured in a hybrid setup. I need to be able to recall instantly. My recall is less that 30 seconds on any session. And being able to recall that quickly with complete accuracy has brought me a lot of work. As good as digital is getting, Analog gives me bigger payoff where sound matters most. This is almost exactly where I've settled with my gear too. Most of it stays on certain channels, in certain configurations and I just assign or bus things to whatever channel I need. If I do change a setting, it's usually just hitting the outboard with more/less signal to get the appropriate effect from the unit.
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Post by drbill on Oct 5, 2016 14:41:25 GMT -6
Oh man....thats going to take some effort. I've got clients flying in later today and I'm prepping for them. I'll try to get to it, but it may have to be next week if I can't swing it today. Remind me please if you don't see them. ...just a couple snaps with the smartphone will do the trick. Would be quicker than the few sentences you just typed. Not for me - I can type fast. I'll try to make my schedule accommodate your needs though.....
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Post by drbill on Oct 5, 2016 14:43:55 GMT -6
Ironically, the things that demand the most recall attention from me are my Silver Bullets. They are always tweaked differently for what they bring into the mix. Comps are generally much more forgiving - recall wise - for me.
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Post by drbill on Oct 5, 2016 15:34:00 GMT -6
Jcoutu1 - Left Desktop Mixing / Tracking Rack Center Desktop Mixing Rack Right Desktop Mixing Rack Couple of shots of the Swinging D&R Mixer Wall Closed D&R Mixer Wall swung Open Right Rear Mixing Rack Left Rear Mixing Rack Keyboard Rack Machine Room Rack Under Mix Position Left Rack Under Mix Position Right Patchbay Rack THE REASON THIS STUFF ALL WORKS!!! -- The heart and soul of it all..... A few studio Beauty Shots......
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Post by wiz on Oct 5, 2016 16:05:58 GMT -6
oh my god!!!
nice stuff
cheers
Wiz
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Post by chasmanian on Oct 5, 2016 16:28:14 GMT -6
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Post by drbill on Oct 5, 2016 19:55:16 GMT -6
Thanks guys! It was a lot of work, and many years of collecting stuff, but I'm digging the hybrid analog/ITB approach so much more than working on my console "old school" - and I think getting substantially better sounds as well.
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Post by scumbum on Oct 5, 2016 23:46:33 GMT -6
So Bill , you still strongly believe the analog magic is NOT the summing ?
Well you worked for years on an analog mixer and don't seem to miss it .
You don't have ANY analog summing at all in your setup , right ?
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Post by rowmat on Oct 6, 2016 1:04:29 GMT -6
Bill, I see you're running 4 Aphex 661 Expressors. I have 2x 661's and 4x 651's but I much prefer the metering on the 661's.
Are you using the tube circuit in the 661's or did you by-pass the tube with the internal jumper? Do your 661's have any mods?
One of our 651's has been modified by Jim Williams but it seems the 661's are less favoured for modding.
Thanks
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Post by drbill on Oct 6, 2016 1:21:41 GMT -6
So Bill , you still strongly believe the analog magic is NOT the summing ? Well you worked for years on an analog mixer and don't seem to miss it . You don't have ANY analog summing at all in your setup , right ? Yes - Brad McGowan and I both believe that the magic of analog is not in the summing itself, but in the surrounding circuitry like transformers, and also discrete electronics and makeup gain. No don't miss the mixer (although I'm a little nostalgic about it.... :-), No not using any analog summing. I do have the little rack mixers, but I'm not summing thru them, I mostly use em for some monitoring duties, and for keyboard sub mixers. I'm going to sell the beast, but I just haven't gotten around to it yet. Correct - no summing in my mixes.
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Post by drbill on Oct 6, 2016 1:23:12 GMT -6
Bill, I see you're running 4 Aphex 661 Expressors. I have 2x 661's and 4x 651's but I much prefer the metering on the 661's. Are you using the tube circuit in the 661's or did you by-pass the tube with the internal jumper? Do your 661's have any mods? One of our 651's has been modified by Jim Williams but it seems the 661's are less favoured for modding. Thanks The tube circuit is still "in" the circuitry on these, but as you know, it doesn't really do much. No mods on the aphex comps. I like the 661's a lot.
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Post by rowmat on Oct 6, 2016 1:54:58 GMT -6
Bill, I see you're running 4 Aphex 661 Expressors. I have 2x 661's and 4x 651's but I much prefer the metering on the 661's. Are you using the tube circuit in the 661's or did you by-pass the tube with the internal jumper? Do your 661's have any mods? One of our 651's has been modified by Jim Williams but it seems the 661's are less favoured for modding. Thanks The tube circuit is still "in" the circuitry on these, but as you know, it doesn't really do much. No mods on the aphex comps. I like the 661's a lot. 👍
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2016 9:05:01 GMT -6
wow. just wow.
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Post by Guitar on Oct 6, 2016 14:15:49 GMT -6
Literally the only reason my studio doesn't look more like Dr. Bill's or some of you other guys places is the bottom line, cash.
I'm on a slow growth plan, so my hardware gets slightly cooler every few months or so. I enjoy it a lot, it just seems "more" than plugins. Like there's a dimension that gets flattened in the translation to software equivalent somehow. Also I tend to abuse plugins sometimes, and hardware not so much. I like the way Andrew Scheps uses a gentle touch even on his plugins, I'm trying to be more mindful to be like that.
That said, the computer is the single most amazing piece of gear in my whole studio, just the range and scope of what it can do all on its own is mind-boggling. Plugins have gotten really good in the past few years, and I love using them. The DAW just keeps getting better and better too, along with the audio interfaces. It's a pretty exciting time to make music, in some ways.
Also one of my favorite albums of all time was made with nothing more than a by today's standards very rudimentary mid-90's computer running primitive audio software. Richard D. James Album. A not so subtle reminder that I love, that the gear really isn't what matters most.
Some specific pieces of software that sound pretty "analog" to me when used liberally on just about any project are the UAD Oxide and Ampex, the UAD SSL Channel, u-He Satin. And Sausage Fattener for synth stuff. You can get sort of a tape/console vibe happening with these things. I mean just in terms of sweetening the sonics, not really for any practical purpose other that simulating Real Gear. Although yes, you can do a lot besides with the SSL channel. I have also been finding Altiverb 7 to give me a fairly convincing studio room tone when I want it, since my rooms are on the smaller side.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Oct 6, 2016 14:46:03 GMT -6
Sweet pad, good doctor.
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Post by drsax on Oct 9, 2016 8:20:44 GMT -6
I''m with drbill on this. I Love analog and love the workflow and recall of digital. So it's outboard first, inserted on the most crucial mix elements... then plugins - all configured in a hybrid setup. I need to be able to recall instantly. My recall is less that 30 seconds on any session. And being able to recall that quickly with complete accuracy has brought me a lot of work. As good as digital is getting, Analog gives me bigger payoff where sound matters most. So you don't change any settings on your analog outboard? I print all tracks w outboard into my session. Only things to change are my Bricasti reverb and occasionally my master buss comp settings, although that usually stays the same as well. I've found a setting that works fantastic on most anything. I also find that committing to my outboard settings while printing has produced better results. It has forced me to make better decisions and stick with them. Then I fiddle less and that usually results in a better mix. In a rare circumstance where I feel I made a poor decision, then I'll rerun a track through the outboard with different settings. Or if it's a small eq tweak that's needed, then I'll throw a good plugin on the track to make a small tweak. Printing the outboard gear also makes archiving the session a breeze. I take pics of all my outboard settings as well. So yes, my outboard settings change all the time - but by the time I'm running a final mix, it's all printed into the session and the only outboard inserted as I render the final mix is my Bricasti Verb, mixbuss comp and on rare occasion a master buss eq. I agree with drbill and Brad that the biggest benefit comes from transformers and makeup gain as opposed to summing. My master buss comp is used for that. There's very little compression happening. I've been eyeballing their silver bullet for a while in fact.
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Post by jjinvegas on Nov 15, 2016 10:47:32 GMT -6
I don't even know how I could do what I do on an analog console and hardware outboard gear. FIR filtering is not even possible in the analog domain, I use it constantly. Almost all dynamics processing I do is in parallel mode. Most of my time-based effects are tempo synced, that is a whole lot of staring at a BPM chart and fooling with knobs that are fairly imprecise. I have a Soundtracs console that I use as my front end, just like all analog consoles the degradation of signal is audible as it passes through more circuitry, I exit just past the mic pre at the insert to bypass any unnecessary ICs etc. All the summing I do would really be impossible on most of the consoles I owned or used as a freelancer. HPPF on every channel if desired? Hmmmm, maybe in the holiest of holy facilities back n the day. Unlimited mults? I can listen for twice as long as I used to without wanting to commit suicide. I think that is due to the elimination of phase smear using FIR. RF, crosstalk, cap drift, contact oxidation, heat-based drift, bad soldering, fatigue in patch cords, well, the occasional computer glitch seems almost as a chance to have a smoke compared to all those never-ending issues. Since the introduction of 24 bit depth, I hardly even see a point to compression on the way in, if needed I have some pretty fine software choices to tame something unruly. And I got them all for free, I use Reaper and freeware and as a former owner of Trident 80/3M-M79,JH-16 etc, I miss that stuff not at all. I still have some hardware in a rack, never turn it on, just cosmetics since customers are used to seeing that sort of thing......
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 17, 2016 10:05:47 GMT -6
I don't even know how I could do what I do on an analog console and hardware outboard gear. FIR filtering is not even possible in the analog domain, I use it constantly. Almost all dynamics processing I do is in parallel mode. Most of my time-based effects are tempo synced, that is a whole lot of staring at a BPM chart and fooling with knobs that are fairly imprecise. I have a Soundtracs console that I use as my front end, just like all analog consoles the degradation of signal is audible as it passes through more circuitry, I exit just past the mic pre at the insert to bypass any unnecessary ICs etc. All the summing I do would really be impossible on most of the consoles I owned or used as a freelancer. HPPF on every channel if desired? Hmmmm, maybe in the holiest of holy facilities back n the day. Unlimited mults? I can listen for twice as long as I used to without wanting to commit suicide. I think that is due to the elimination of phase smear using FIR. RF, crosstalk, cap drift, contact oxidation, heat-based drift, bad soldering, fatigue in patch cords, well, the occasional computer glitch seems almost as a chance to have a smoke compared to all those never-ending issues. Since the introduction of 24 bit depth, I hardly even see a point to compression on the way in, if needed I have some pretty fine software choices to tame something unruly. And I got them all for free, I use Reaper and freeware and as a former owner of Trident 80/3M-M79,JH-16 etc, I miss that stuff not at all. I still have some hardware in a rack, never turn it on, just cosmetics since customers are used to seeing that sort of thing...... Welcome, jjinvegas
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Post by illacov on Nov 17, 2016 23:53:51 GMT -6
Analog gear is a shorter path to success if you really know how to use it. Nothing beats it in my opinion during tracking or mixing. Cut a vocal with compression to digital, add some analog eq, push play sounds great move on. And yes to my ears, analog compression sounds better, has better grab and better long term benefits in a production, ESPECIALLY during tracking.
Here's my major complaint through it all. Plugins exist in a vacuum. They don't interact. A standalone Neve 1073 to an LA2A is literally the output transformer of the Neve connecting to the input transformer of the LA2A. To negate the phenomenon implied by this is to deny physics. This is true for many recording chains and scenarios. Somehow this is not part of the grand scheme for the digital plugin world. It's also why during mixing, if I'm using a hardware insert in digital, I always hit a preamp (via line in or DI) before the compressor if at all possible. This way I can get the audio to act like it just came off the mic preamp to the compressor, rather than the 50 ohm or 250 ohm rated output of a DAC going to said compressor. Gets the audio "live," again IMHO.
Thanks -L.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2016 4:26:47 GMT -6
Analog gear is a shorter path to success if you really know how to use it. Nothing beats it in my opinion during tracking or mixing. Cut a vocal with compression to digital, add some analog eq, push play sounds great move on. And yes to my ears, analog compression sounds better, has better grab and better long term benefits in a production, ESPECIALLY during tracking. Here's my major complaint through it all. Plugins exist in a vacuum. They don't interact. A standalone Neve 1073 to an LA2A is literally the output transformer of the Neve connecting to the input transformer of the LA2A. To negate the phenomenon implied by this is to deny physics. This is true for many recording chains and scenarios. Somehow this is not part of the grand scheme for the digital plugin world. It's also why during mixing, if I'm using a hardware insert in digital, I always hit a preamp (via line in or DI) before the compressor if at all possible. This way I can get the audio to act like it just came off the mic preamp to the compressor, rather than the 50 ohm or 250 ohm rated output of a DAC going to said compressor. Gets the audio "live," again IMHO. Thanks -L. At last in a position to agree ( recently got my OTB setup sorted ) as been testing this. Tried various lower end OTB compressors, plus one higher end and tested against some of my fave plug ins. None of the plugs harmed the track, but did flatten rather than flatter the sound, whilst 2 of the low end outboard comps destroyed the sound completely. A couple of the outboard cheaper comps did sound as nice as the plugins but either skewed the highs or mids ( presumably this is "colour" ). The higher end comp was the only one that actually enhanced and improved the track, way more than any of the plug ins or cheap outboard. Will try the pre before compressor trick - thanks for the tip.
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 18, 2016 5:19:35 GMT -6
Analog gear is a shorter path to success if you really know how to use it. Nothing beats it in my opinion during tracking or mixing. Cut a vocal with compression to digital, add some analog eq, push play sounds great move on. And yes to my ears, analog compression sounds better, has better grab and better long term benefits in a production, ESPECIALLY during tracking. Here's my major complaint through it all. Plugins exist in a vacuum. They don't interact. A standalone Neve 1073 to an LA2A is literally the output transformer of the Neve connecting to the input transformer of the LA2A. To negate the phenomenon implied by this is to deny physics. This is true for many recording chains and scenarios. Somehow this is not part of the grand scheme for the digital plugin world. It's also why during mixing, if I'm using a hardware insert in digital, I always hit a preamp (via line in or DI) before the compressor if at all possible. This way I can get the audio to act like it just came off the mic preamp to the compressor, rather than the 50 ohm or 250 ohm rated output of a DAC going to said compressor. Gets the audio "live," again IMHO. Thanks -L. In normal times I would agree but we are living in the middle of a change. I say that since I made a very very positive experience with Slates VCC and VBC. It shows me that someone can create great sounding digital tools. It does not mean that I sell my hardware tommorow but its a sign that I will downsize my rack. Your Zulu could be one tool running on the 2 bus - why not.
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Post by jazznoise on Nov 18, 2016 5:26:44 GMT -6
Yeah my meager outboard is limited largely to tracking. It's more so it sounds closer to "there" before we pack up and go home. Ideally I'd like to be one of those guys whose mix IS the recording, but I'm not good enough and there's technical limitations with my setup to consider.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2016 5:37:38 GMT -6
Analog gear is a shorter path to success if you really know how to use it. Nothing beats it in my opinion during tracking or mixing. Cut a vocal with compression to digital, add some analog eq, push play sounds great move on. And yes to my ears, analog compression sounds better, has better grab and better long term benefits in a production, ESPECIALLY during tracking. Here's my major complaint through it all. Plugins exist in a vacuum. They don't interact. A standalone Neve 1073 to an LA2A is literally the output transformer of the Neve connecting to the input transformer of the LA2A. To negate the phenomenon implied by this is to deny physics. This is true for many recording chains and scenarios. Somehow this is not part of the grand scheme for the digital plugin world. It's also why during mixing, if I'm using a hardware insert in digital, I always hit a preamp (via line in or DI) before the compressor if at all possible. This way I can get the audio to act like it just came off the mic preamp to the compressor, rather than the 50 ohm or 250 ohm rated output of a DAC going to said compressor. Gets the audio "live," again IMHO. Thanks -L. In normal times I would agree but we are living in the middle of a change. I say that since I made a very very positive experience with Slates VCC and VBC. It shows me that someone can create great sounding digital tools. It does not mean that I sell my hardware tommorow but its a sign that I will downsize my rack. Your Zulu could be one tool running on the 2 bus - why not. It is getting there. Can't test Slate stuff as no dongle, but did try some of the Acqua stuff on my little laptop - that was pretty impressive. Anyone tried VCC for direct recording?
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