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Post by geoff738 on Sept 15, 2016 22:11:46 GMT -6
I'm pondering picking up another Daking compressor so that I have one quality stereo pair of comps for mix purposes. Not sure why these seem to fly under the radar, but that's another topic for another day.
But I'm thinking, do I really need a stereo pair? Are there workarounds to get the most out of my hardware, particularly on stereo stuff.
How do you go about keeping everything aligned? I do not trust the ping function.
If you plan on using an 1176 (or substitute the hardware of your choice) on a bunch of tracks come mix down, but only have one, how do you go about it? What sources do you tend to start with? Do you use an 1176 plugin as a placeholder before you run it through the hardware if the hardware is otherwise occupied? What if you don't have an itb emulation of the hardware?
Looking forward to hearing about how you go about this.
Cheers,
Geoff
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Post by jin167 on Sept 15, 2016 23:41:32 GMT -6
If you are familiar with mid-side processing you can use the mid-side decoder and encoder (voxengo msed for example). This allows you to use 2 single channel compressors (hardware) on your 2 buss. As for keeping things aligned you can use the time-delay plugin (also from the voxengo) + polarity flip trick.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Sept 15, 2016 23:42:45 GMT -6
Most folks with limited hardware use it during tracking only and stay ITB once everything is tracked. You start to hear color from these pieces of hardware when you use them on EVERY channel, not just one or two channels. That's why those old studios had 8+ of everything, which is pretty unfeasible now. I have about 4 complete channels of Pre-EQ-Comp-Fader that I can use before going into the box, and 2 bus compressors. I barely use anything but the preamps now.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Sept 16, 2016 6:20:24 GMT -6
This is easy with most sample based and recorded music that I mix because 99% of the material is timed to a BPM and recorded with a click track. I work in absolute grid mode in PT with meter and tempo locked/ mapped ( 4/4 123 bpm ). So in most songs the structure will repeat and certain elements are looped throughout the arrangement.
In a situation like this I would duplicate the original playlist ( keep original for backup ) rename the duplicate so it's organized. I say playlist because it can keep the track count down, sometimes it is easier to add a new audio track and name it, then you will have a visual guide to place the processed audio. If you have 40-50 tracks in the session and you want to process 10-20 of those on new audio tracks it adds up fast.
My wa76 is Line I/o 5 in my Apollo, which is insert 7 in PT for me which is renamed WA76. I will process the loop and fly it to the rest of the parts of the arrangement using the guide track or by knowing the arrangement. I do this by printing the HW effect; recording it onto the new playlist on the track or to a new track.
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Post by geoff738 on Sept 16, 2016 13:24:22 GMT -6
My wa76 is Line I/o 5 in my Apollo, which is insert 7 in PT for me which is renamed WA76. I will process the loop and fly it to the rest of the parts of the arrangement using the guide track or by knowing the arrangement. I do this by printing the HW effect; recording it onto the new playlist on the track or to a new track. Printing the HW track. Wiz had mentioned some little trick to keeping everything lined up. I believe he put a tick, or something with a hard transient on every track, that he could use to line things up. Wiz? Cheers, Geoff |
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Post by geoff738 on Sept 16, 2016 13:28:14 GMT -6
Most folks with limited hardware use it during tracking only and stay ITB once everything is tracked. You start to hear color from these pieces of hardware when you use them on EVERY channel, not just one or two channels. That's why those old studios had 8+ of everything, which is pretty unfeasible now. I have about 4 complete channels of Pre-EQ-Comp-Fader that I can use before going into the box, and 2 bus compressors. I barely use anything but the preamps now. I like to track through as many things that have transformers as possible, even if they're not doing any processing. Most of my stuff is towards the neutral side of things so I'm not adding much colour, but it does seem to help. But I still want a hybrid situation come mix time. I have some (good) hardware. Might as well make use of it. Cheers, Geoff |
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Post by wiz on Sept 16, 2016 14:23:42 GMT -6
My wa76 is Line I/o 5 in my Apollo, which is insert 7 in PT for me which is renamed WA76. I will process the loop and fly it to the rest of the parts of the arrangement using the guide track or by knowing the arrangement. I do this by printing the HW effect; recording it onto the new playlist on the track or to a new track. Printing the HW track. Wiz had mentioned some little trick to keeping everything lined up. I believe he put a tick, or something with a hard transient on every track, that he could use to line things up. Wiz? Cheers, Geoff Hey Geoff yes, I have a single sample "tick". I will upload it, people can download it,.. then you just copy that to the track(s) you are reamping... at the start or end of the track, and when you reamp, you can drag the recorded track(s) back to sample alignment. cheers Wiz Single Sample Tick |
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Post by geoff738 on Sept 16, 2016 14:25:14 GMT -6
Printing the HW track. Wiz had mentioned some little trick to keeping everything lined up. I believe he put a tick, or something with a hard transient on every track, that he could use to line things up. Wiz? Cheers, Geoff Hey Geoff yes, I have a single sample "tick". I will upload it, people can download it,.. then you just copy that to the track(s) you are reamping... at the start or end of the track, and when you reamp, you can drag the recorded track(s) back to sample alignment. cheers Wiz Single Sample TickThanks Wiz! Cheers, Geoff |
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Post by drbill on Sept 16, 2016 14:40:02 GMT -6
If you're working in Pro Tools, no need for clicks or other methods - just initiate "delay compensation" - it should all line up perfectly. I put all my mix gear on a "mix i/o" setup and load it into PT when I'm mixing. All my hardware is either normaled or patched into the hardware AD/DA in my patch bay. Instantiating hardware is as simple as instantiating a plugin - and is the same process. If you want to PRINT it to free up the piece of hardware, just buss the track with a hardware insert on it to a new track and "record". Simple, elegant and it yields a huge difference in sonics over plugins.
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Post by geoff738 on Sept 16, 2016 14:51:52 GMT -6
If you're working in Pro Tools, no need for clicks or other methods - just initiate "delay compensation" - it should all line up perfectly. I put all my mix gear on a "mix i/o" setup and load it into PT when I'm mixing. All my hardware is either normaled or patched into the hardware AD/DA in my patch bay. Instantiating hardware is as simple as instantiating a plugin - and is the same process. If you want to PRINT it to free up the piece of hardware, just buss the track with a hardware insert on it to a new track and "record". Simple, elegant and it yields a huge difference in sonics over plugins. line up. I'm in Logic, and I don't trust the delay compensation. Maybe just me being paranoid. Wouldn't be the first time. And, totally agreed that it is worth going through hardware and printing it if you have it. I guess I'm hoping for some technique where I could print the left side of a stereo buss through a hardware chain, then go back and do the right side and have them aligned and not wonky. Im not sure why it wouldn't work but something is telling me it won't. Is the mid-side processing mentioned up thread what I'm looking for? Cheers, Geoff |
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Post by wiz on Sept 16, 2016 14:52:37 GMT -6
If you're working in Pro Tools, no need for clicks or other methods - just initiate "delay compensation" - it should all line up perfectly. I put all my mix gear on a "mix i/o" setup and load it into PT when I'm mixing. All my hardware is either normaled or patched into the hardware AD/DA in my patch bay. Instantiating hardware is as simple as instantiating a plugin - and is the same process. If you want to PRINT it to free up the piece of hardware, just buss the track with a hardware insert on it to a new track and "record". Simple, elegant and it yields a huge difference in sonics over plugins. should, being the operative word..... 8) should is a dangerous thing... LOL Should, work in logic too.... and it does.. but logic can do strange things to the timing depending on how you route.. and you are always just a software update from things happening strangely... having this, allows you to check... cheers Wiz |
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Post by geoff738 on Sept 16, 2016 14:53:14 GMT -6
Or maybe I should just buy the Daking.
Cheers,
Geoff
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Post by wiz on Sept 16, 2016 14:55:00 GMT -6
If you're working in Pro Tools, no need for clicks or other methods - just initiate "delay compensation" - it should all line up perfectly. I put all my mix gear on a "mix i/o" setup and load it into PT when I'm mixing. All my hardware is either normaled or patched into the hardware AD/DA in my patch bay. Instantiating hardware is as simple as instantiating a plugin - and is the same process. If you want to PRINT it to free up the piece of hardware, just buss the track with a hardware insert on it to a new track and "record". Simple, elegant and it yields a huge difference in sonics over plugins. line up. I'm in Logic, and I don't trust the delay compensation. Maybe just me being paranoid. Wouldn't be the first time. And, totally agreed that it is worth going through hardware and printing it if you have it. I guess I'm hoping for some technique where I could print the left side of a stereo buss through a hardware chain, then go back and do the right side and have them aligned and not wonky. Im not sure why it wouldn't work but something is telling me it won't. Is the mid-side processing mentioned up thread what I'm looking for? Cheers, Geoff Geoff, if you ever want to chat about this, as I use logic and do this every day.. I am more than happy to give you a call ... cheers Wiz |
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Post by drbill on Sept 16, 2016 15:05:41 GMT -6
Well, I suppose it never hurts to be safe, <thumbsup> but after several thousand sessions in PT working flawlessly (other than occasionally needing a reboot if everything freaks out), I'm past going the extra mile. Guess I'm just lazy.  I can and often do route in the most convoluted of ways possible in PT and it never fails me. |
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Post by wiz on Sept 16, 2016 15:20:13 GMT -6
Well, I suppose it never hurts to be safe, <thumbsup> but after several thousand sessions in PT working flawlessly (other than occasionally needing a reboot if everything freaks out), I'm past going the extra mile. Guess I'm just lazy. I can and often do route in the most convoluted of ways possible in PT and it never fails me. Its one of the main reasons, I really considered going Tools..... I worked out what was wrong... and found a way to do this all reliably and sample accurate. I know you had a smiley face, but don't take anything I said as a slight.... not intended, and if it ever comes over like that I would apologise straight away. As you know, computers and daws, aint like consoles and tape, things aren't happening at the speed of electricity.. and phase, can get screwy real fast... plugin delay compensation, bus routing, etc can all play havoc, and have done, on more than one DAW in the past, IIRC including Pro Tools. So having a single sample tick, on your desk top, and dragging it in every now and then, particularly after an update of something, if you are doing reamping.... is not such a bad thing to check every now and then. cheers Wiz |
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Post by geoff738 on Sept 16, 2016 15:39:55 GMT -6
Should line up. I'm in Logic, and I don't trust the delay compensation. Maybe just me being paranoid. Wouldn't be the first time. And, totally agreed that it is worth going through hardware and printing it if you have it. I guess I'm hoping for some technique where I could print the left side of a stereo buss through a hardware chain, then go back and do the right side and have them aligned and not wonky. Im not sure why it wouldn't work but something is telling me it won't. Is the mid-side processing mentioned up thread what I'm looking for? Cheers, Geoff Geoff, if you ever want to chat about this, as I use logic and do this every day.. I am more than happy to give you a call ... cheers Wiz Wiz, Could you maybe give a quick overview of your approach? Are you monitoring your stereo buss in mono before you set up your hardware chain? That sorta stuff. Cheers, Geoff |
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Post by wiz on Sept 16, 2016 16:37:44 GMT -6
I track, mic preamp to DAW (vocals and sometimes other things, go through compression, but for the most part, direct to tape so to speak)
I then have a reamp phase.
I come out of up to 14 outputs of my MOTU 16A, into the Soundcraft Delta, and outboard is inserted into the Delta.
The post fader direct outs of the delta go back to the MOTU 16A
In the DAW, and IO Plugin is inserted across each of those 14 tracks, and is pinged, to get the delay.. I also have the recording delay offset , set in logic.
The output of those 14 tracks, in the DAW, each go to their own bus. Bus 21 to 33. (track 1 bus 21, track 2 bus 22 )
I then create 14 new tracks, with their inputs set to the appropriate bus...
Then the song gets played from start to finish, and I record the new , re amped 14 tracks.
I then Mute, unassigns and hide the original 14 tracks, in case I need to go back, which I didn't on the last album.
Then I move on...
my songs don't have huge track counts.
I sum in the box.
I have on some songs, a IO Plug in on the two bus.. go out to two channels on the Delta, and might do some stereo bus processing on a song by song basis.
cheers
Wiz
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Post by drbill on Sept 16, 2016 17:59:35 GMT -6
I should say that I'm not attempting to do PARALLEL processing with the hybrid approach. In those situations, I could see how having a sync pop on every track could be helpful, If whatever I'm using outboard doesn't have a blend, than it's a 100% wet processing. Just like old school. |
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Post by Randge on Sept 16, 2016 18:08:39 GMT -6
If you're working in Pro Tools, no need for clicks or other methods - just initiate "delay compensation" - it should all line up perfectly. I put all my mix gear on a "mix i/o" setup and load it into PT when I'm mixing. All my hardware is either normaled or patched into the hardware AD/DA in my patch bay. Instantiating hardware is as simple as instantiating a plugin - and is the same process. If you want to PRINT it to free up the piece of hardware, just buss the track with a hardware insert on it to a new track and "record". Simple, elegant and it yields a huge difference in sonics over plugins. Same with Cubase, delay compensation on any insert. |
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,957 
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Post by ericn on Sept 16, 2016 20:49:36 GMT -6
#1 Thing I have learned about hybrid , Don't use plugins because it sounds like some analog piece, use it because you like what it brings on its own!
If you have one compressor don't be afraid to print wet tracks.
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Post by geoff738 on Sept 16, 2016 22:14:54 GMT -6
#1 Thing I have learned about hybrid , Don't use plugins because it sounds like some analog piece, use it because you like what it brings on its own! If you have one compressor don't be afraid to print wet tracks. Compressors are the one area where I have some variety in hardware and stuff that is quality. Warm76, Cranesong, Daking, Overstayer, Avalon737. But, other than the Overstayer (and I have an RNC), they're all mono. And the Overstayer tends to be permanently on the 2 buss. I suppose at the end of the day I'm mostly asking about getting the most out of my compressors. I can wrap my head around maybe setting up an eq or filters on a stereo buss by setting the buss to mono, tweaking to taste, then running each side through the hardware and printing. As long as those are time aligned, I think it would be ok. I'm just not sure that approach works well for compression. Or maybe I'm way off base. Cheers, Geoff |
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Post by Randge on Sept 16, 2016 23:06:17 GMT -6
 9 buss's going right now for an acoustic record I'm mixing. The delay compensation in Cubase is flawless and this mix is going smooth as silk tonight. I am hoping for a blend knob (effect/original audio) on the inserts in an upcoming Cubase version and I will be one happy camper. |
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Post by drbill on Sept 16, 2016 23:33:36 GMT -6
I don't know if a digital blend is possible, as there are always cracks in between samples, and even one sample will mess up phase relationships.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Sept 16, 2016 23:38:45 GMT -6
My wa76 is Line I/o 5 in my Apollo, which is insert 7 in PT for me which is renamed WA76. I will process the loop and fly it to the rest of the parts of the arrangement using the guide track or by knowing the arrangement. I do this by printing the HW effect; recording it onto the new playlist on the track or to a new track. Printing the HW track. Wiz had mentioned some little trick to keeping everything lined up. I believe he put a tick, or something with a hard transient on every track, that he could use to line things up. Wiz? Cheers, Geoff That's why I use HW inserts, the Apollo mimics the Avid HD I/o and therefore everything is time aligned. It has to exit and enter the same pair of I/o. It can't be line output 6 and line input 5, it's line output 5 to wa76, wa76 output into Apollo line input 5 muted in console! DrBill elaborated on it earlier in the thread as well! |
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,957
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Post by ericn on Sept 17, 2016 7:36:23 GMT -6
I don't know if a digital blend is possible, as there are always cracks in between samples, and even one sample will mess up phase relationships. It's a simple mixbus on an insert the math shouldn't be that hard , but a bunch could tax a weak CPU ! |
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I can and often do route in the most convoluted of ways possible in PT and it never fails me.
