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Post by scumbum on Nov 18, 2013 23:07:28 GMT -6
Hey nobtwiddler , I read a few years back , you put together a mobile 8 track recording rig and simplified things , because the current state of music/recording methods of today , were killing your love of making music .
How are things going with that ?
Have you been recording some great 8 track music and having fun again ?
With the mobile rig , you record to a laptop , but do you limit yourself to only have 8 tracks ?
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 18, 2013 23:50:14 GMT -6
i'm interested in hearing about this also, your other tracks i've heard sounded really good!
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Post by nobtwiddler on Nov 21, 2013 17:10:15 GMT -6
Hey Guys... How's tricks? Ok, this is gonna be a few parts story.... More will come as I have time, grab a beer, (or a coupla two tree,) and enjoy my odyssey.... Scum, Let's see, you are correct, the first version of this portable recording rig I designed did have a laptop as it's main recorder. Obviously this was done to make the portable system a bit more manageable. As I had already been going out on locations with a either a Otari, MCI, and or Brennell 1 inch 8 track recorders. It became painfully clear that in this day and age this wasn't making any sense...so I opted for something else. That was when I figured I'd try a computer for recording (which I had never done before) (Actually the very first portable rig I made was a long time ago, and was 24 tracks back in the 90's, but I'll post a photo of that later if I can find one?) Basically I got tired with the crazy track counts I was getting at my place to mix, and all of a sudden I was totally distanced from the music I was working on... Which was sad, cause I really loved my clients, and I had a long history with most, and we all got on great. But the music those last few years just did nothing for me...even more so as things got over produced, over processed, grid'ed, sample added, pitched corrected etc, etc, etc... All of a sudden I hated what I did for a living...and considered getting out. But what else could I do? As I started in this biz with my own studio at age 16...in 1972 So how could this happen?
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Post by nobtwiddler on Nov 21, 2013 17:23:03 GMT -6
So that being said....
I started to think, what were the reasons I got into this biz in the first place when I was a kid.
Well..
- First, during the 70's when I got started, it was the music.
I loved the music, Rock n Roll was amazing, lots of great bands and artists...Every week there wasn something new was groundbreaking on the radio.
- Then it was the gear, and the technology, although limited by todays standards, very much cutting edge for it's time.
- The I really loved working with bands, and working on songs, arrangements, etc.
I loved to hang with musicians...
- And most of all, I loved the moment when you are tracking something, when you know, (EVERYONE KNOWs), when the magic happens.
The hairs on your arms, head or wherever, all stand up, and you get this chill...You can't put you finger on it, but it's there, and it's so real.
But like I said early, that wasn't happening anymore.
As a matter of fact, most of the bands weren't even cutting tracks together anymore, just a drummer cutting to a click or a scratch guitar part seemed to be the norm.
And I often asked myself, how the hell is this making music?
More to come...
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Post by nobtwiddler on Nov 21, 2013 17:42:57 GMT -6
These pics show at the time, my second attempt at building something to go out with... This was a home made wooden rack, just a prototype to see how it would all fit together... And it utilized a Aurora Audio GTM-822 mixer, and a Genex 8 track DSD recorder~! |
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Post by nobtwiddler on Nov 21, 2013 18:03:51 GMT -6
Did a few session with this set up. And I must tell ya, the recordings sounded amazing! To me, there is nothing, and or was nothing like recording directly to the Genex in DSD. I remember the band listening to play back of the very first take they did, they ALL had their mouths wide open, because it sounded sooooooo figgin GOOD! It was truly something spectacular. But this rig, this particular choice of gear had it's problems... (I can't be this easy right?) #1 - A was a little bulky, and the gear wasn't protected in my home made rack...(although it got me thinking how I could take this concept further and perfect it) First thing I did, was to change the case to something safer, a SKB Military Shock mount case, which was WAY more secure, but not really any smaller. As a matter of fact it was much larger, and bulkier, although very, very, secure as it was air tight and water proof! I've posted two pics (sorry for the bad photos, that's all I can find right now) of the slow evolution of gear, but you can see where I was headed at this point in time. |
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Post by scumbum on Nov 21, 2013 22:35:15 GMT -6
Awesome !!!!! Thanks for sharing ! I'm totally on the same page about how music is made these days . Back in 2003 I took a Recording Connection course where you pay $5,000 and they get you an intern gig at a local studio and after that they help you get a job at a studio . Well when I signed up I thought " this is gonna be the best job!!" , "I'm gonna be recording amazing music , hanging out with musicians!! " ............ Pretty much early on , a couple months into it , I realized this is not for me ...........the job was not about recording great music , it was about being a COMPUTER TECHNICIAN and PRO TOOLS OPERATOR !! It was like going to the"office" and working at a computer all day , updating software , downloading crap , messing with servers , routers , defraging hard drives..........and the other interns that were excelling , it wasn't because of their musical gift , it was because of their Nerd Powers/Computer Skills....being able to keep the computers updated and running smoothly.... SCREW THAT !! .....I SIGNED UP TO MAKE MUSIC ! Then when it came down to actually recording , it was all overdubs , billions of takes , Editing , Editing , Editing , Sound Replacing..........Again sitting at a COMPUTER all day , I'm at the office trying to turn this generic , crappy local band into Nickelback . Which we did , but was all that work fun or rewarding  No , it was slaving away at a computer making some crappy music that I don't ever wanna listen too ever again ! If that studio had your 8 track setup , I'd still be working there today . That thing looks SO FUN ! Because you walk in , turn it on and make Music . You know , theres nothing else to do but make MUSIC ! Theres the on switch and away you go ! That setup is ALL ABOUT MUSIC , thats it ! Theres no way around it , if the band wants to make amazing music that people will want to listen to over and over and will love........then they have to play it...and thats the way it should be . You can't create "MAGIC" with all the technology of today , you can't edit , sound replace or quantize bands into the Beatles or Zeppelin . Now you can make a crappy band sound "ok" with all these new tools . But to make REAL MUSIC , music that you actually LOVE , its all about the performance in front of the mic , its not the result of endless hours tweaking plugins and editing . If every studio was limited to an 8 or 16 track setup like yours , Music would be AMAZING TODAY , just like in the past . I know , I know , I know , its not about the gear . You can get the same results with a Full Pro Tools HD Rig and you can ! The problem is Musicians today don't walk into a studio thinking "I gotta play my Ass OFF , I gotta nail my part !!" , they walk in thinking , "Oh , I'll just lay down 50 takes and the engineer can fix it in the mix "....... thats the problem , its relying on these modern tools to make music instead of the band actually making the music . Ok my rant is Over.........But I can totally understand the limitation this setup puts on you and the band . Once you turn it on , there is absolutely NOTHING else to do but hit record and focus on the music/artist in front of the mic making sure your getting magic takes . |
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Post by scumbum on Nov 21, 2013 22:39:00 GMT -6
Oh yeah , how do you mix it ?? Whats your Mixing setup ? Do you dump the tracks into a DAW and mix ITB ?
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Post by nobtwiddler on Nov 22, 2013 16:05:03 GMT -6
You got it buddy, it became a job, and one I wanted nothing to do with.
So I went on this quest on how to get back to the music I loved, and get back to working with live musicians, performing together in a room.
Any room...
Ok, so where did I leave off last night.
The version in the SKB rack...
You can see the Helios thing entering my setup here.
I loved the GTM-822 mixer, it sounded amazing. But sadly it never worked right, well at least not for more then a few weeks at a time?
Geoff did his best to get me up and running, but still I had problems shortly after each one of his repairs.
Obviously while out on location, I needed something that not only sounds great, but it has to be reliable. With No excuses!
This proved to be anything but.
And Shipping the unit back and forth to California a few times cost a fortune with insurance, it just got to be a bit much.
The icing on the cake was that I lost 3 sessions I had previously booked that had deadlines...and because the mixer was out for repair, this time for 6 weeks I lost all that work!
That was the final straw...sold it with full disclosure for a $3000 loss, In just a few months.
What a waste.
Then on top of that disaster, the Genex unit started doing some strange things.
I lost a few tracks on one session, which was not a big deal on this particular project, as we just recut a solo and a shaker, but it could have been a major catastrophe!
This also got me worried...
Also around this time, I found out Genex the company was in real trouble. I spoke with quite a few engineers and producers who had units of their own, and getting parts, and or service was just about impossible...
Remember this was a proprietary recorder, and there were only a few of them out there, I had the ONLY remote control as far as I know.
This was very troubling.
So I held on as long as I could, but once again...when the company was down to just the owner (designer) and there was no service or parts to be had, I had to sell this also at a GREAT loss to someone who needed a spare machine for parts.
You know you can't make this shit up...
And it was really too bad, cause at that time I never heard any recorder that sounded that good. Beside the sound, the way that DSD worked in that machine was everything was destructive. So it not only sounded the closest to tape, when you punched you lost what was there....and because it used 8 channel cards it was only (at least in my unit) 8 tracks. So I used it exactly like a 8 track analog recorder. OH one thing on the Genex there was NO editing of audio, unlike what you could do on a tape machine.
But the limitations were exactly what I wanted for my 8 track label, and the sound was Glorious!
Once again I had to go back to the drawing board and start over, but with what.
Next.......
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Post by scumbum on Nov 22, 2013 16:31:17 GMT -6
That sucks having to sell the Genex setup . That thing looks killer ! But its a nightmare if tracks are disappearing ......
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Post by nobtwiddler on Nov 22, 2013 17:31:48 GMT -6
I figured out real soon that the SKB racks were also a bit much more then required (good thing I bought 2, ehh?). So I set out to make the system much more portable, reliable, & with a vintage sonic flavor. At this time I already owned 5 Radar digital recorders, and I was totally pleased with everything about them as my main studio machines. I purchased the 5th unit to use in this version of my remote rig.... But I found out quickly that it was still rather large to move, albeit much smaller and lighter then a analog machine, but it still was a lot to carry, and it made a hell of a lot of noise. You see most of the recording I do on location (and now in my new room) is with me setup in the same room as the band...So the 2 drives, the internal drives, the fan, all made way too much noise for the machine to be next to me where the recording is happening. Now I did relocate it to an other room on a few occasions, but sometimes, there is NO OTHER ROOM... So I needed a recorder that can stay next to me where the music is happening and make no noise. So I called Barry on the phone over at IZ and told him what I needed to see if he could custom build this for me..... My specific points were: - A slightly smaller, and lighter machine. - One that could use solid state drives, in and out, (thus reducing drive noise!) - Possibility of putting simple record / play functions on the front panel as to not have top carry the big RE-8 remote control to all the gigs. - And if I didn't need to carry a screen (there ain't one on a analog recorder!) that would be great. - I also asked if the machine could be had in 8 channel increments? (the Radar II and Radar V cards were sold only in blocks of 24) Barry was puzzled over this last request, and he asked, why would you want only 8 channels in and out...I told him about my 8 track rig and label, and that it was all based around being limited to only 8 tracks, and he replied, then only tell them there's only 8.. Haha, I told him it won't work, it either is or it ain't, and we have to bounce like the old days! Remember, Limitations. - And my last request was to make the fan QUIETER! Well at this point he told me that he could not build what I wanted at the time, but might be able to change the 2 drives out to solid state, and make the fan a bit quieter... But I needed more... So the quest for something to record to, that fit these requirements for my portable rig continued...... |
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Post by nobtwiddler on Nov 22, 2013 17:56:31 GMT -6
The next phase was one I fought in my head for weeks.... I didn't really want to go the computer route, no let me rephrase it... I DIDN'T WANT TO USE A COMPUTER EVER! (other then for email) But I saw no other choice, a computer was cheap, easy, made no noise to speak of, and if I purchased a 8 channel convertor, then I pretty much have my 8 tracks set up right? So after many weeks I finally settled on a Mac Book Pro 17 inch laptop with a Metric Halo UNL-8 for the 8 ins /outs ...And DP-7 (at the time) Ok, this seemed like it might work... How bad could it be? I put all this it into my setup, and did a few sessions with this configuration. The pics show, the computer, the UNL-8, a storage drawer, a Glyph 2 terabyte drive, and the second 19 inch screen which folds into the rack when not in use. And these are all installed in the new custom built rack. (after I decided the SKB's were too much) Attachments:
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Post by scumbum on Nov 22, 2013 18:46:06 GMT -6
Ha......uh oh.........major buzz kill.........back to staring at a computer screen and moving a track ball ! I have a feeling that setup didn't last long . Looking at the first setups gets me psyched !!! Looking at this makes me ....well sad....  |
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 23, 2013 8:47:18 GMT -6
I loved the GTM-822 mixer, it sounded amazing. But sadly it never worked right, well at least not for more then a few weeks at a time? Geoff did his best to get me up and running, but still I had problems shortly after each one of his repairs. Obviously while out on location, I needed something that not only sounds great, but it has to be reliable. With No excuses! This proved to be anything but. And Shipping the unit back and forth to California a few times cost a fortune with insurance, it just got to be a bit much. The icing on the cake was that I lost 3 sessions I had previously booked that had deadlines...and because the mixer was out for repair, this time for 6 weeks I lost all that work! That was the final straw...sold it with full disclosure for a $3000 loss, In just a few months. What a waste. I had the exact same experience with Aurora. I thought mine might be an isolated experience, but I've heard of several other people having problems. |
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Post by nobtwiddler on Nov 23, 2013 9:27:30 GMT -6
Haha..
Once again my Scummy little friend, you are correct!
I tried it, and soon realized that (what I already knew)
I hated everything about recording to a computer....
The setup, the interface, the latency, etc, etc, etc.
This went on for about a year or so, trying each time to get past the computer thing, but it just wore me down.
What can I say, even with all a computer setup offers, I just couldn't get on with it.
Not for me, that's all.
Plus there was the fact that everyone KNEW, they could just add more tracks if needed.
Once again I didn't like that option for my purpose of keeping it real.
At that point I thought I was out of options, so I started luggin the Radar V around again.
UNTIL..............
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Post by nobtwiddler on Nov 23, 2013 9:57:04 GMT -6
Hey John,
Yeah the Aurora Audio thing was a real let down.
The unit sounded fabulous, but wasn't reliable. I spent $7000 on it and waited months longer then the date I was promised for it's delivery.
Canceled gigs because of this...(maybe a omen of what was to come?)
Like I said Geoff was good about trying to get it going, but it seemed like he was overwhelmed at the time.
When the unit was sent back to him the first time it was because the left side would be intermittent and go out randomly, also the headphone amp would go on and off, a few little things like that?
It was supposed to be back within 10 days, but instead it took six weeks, but nothing really changed, as it exhibited the same problems a few weeks later.
Then it went back again cause Geoff said he figured out what it was....but it just wasted even more time and more of my money.
Really too bad, cause I LOVED the GTM, and designed and built my entire system around it.
I was kinda hoping I might get one of the new versions for cost or something, when they came out, but hey...live and learn.
When the Neve 8816 came out, it filled the void, maybe not as great sonically, but does even more, has 16 channels, and works all the time!
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Post by scumbum on Nov 24, 2013 17:54:22 GMT -6
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Post by nobtwiddler on Nov 24, 2013 18:11:06 GMT -6
Yeah I had, the Studer, the original as well as the later version of the Alesis, Adats, ending up with their M-20, as well as Fostex thing with time code..(whatever that was called?
Trust me, tried everything.
Even built my first remote rig (I mentioned early in this post) based around 3 original Adats, right after they were introduced.
Photos of that rig to come later..if I can find them.
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 24, 2013 22:14:22 GMT -6
Hey John, Yeah the Aurora Audio thing was a real let down. The unit sounded fabulous, but wasn't reliable. I spent $7000 on it and waited months longer then the date I was promised for it's delivery. Canceled gigs because of this...(maybe a omen of what was to come?) Like I said Geoff was good about trying to get it going, but it seemed like he was overwhelmed at the time. When the unit was sent back to him the first time it was because the left side would be intermittent and go out randomly, also the headphone amp would go on and off, a few little things like that? It was supposed to be back within 10 days, but instead it took six weeks, but nothing really changed, as it exhibited the same problems a few weeks later. Then it went back again cause Geoff said he figured out what it was....but it just wasted even more time and more of my money. Really too bad, cause I LOVED the GTM, and designed and built my entire system around it. I was kinda hoping I might get one of the new versions for cost or something, when they came out, but hey...live and learn. When the Neve 8816 came out, it filled the void, maybe not as great sonically, but does even more, has 16 channels, and works all the time! That was EXACTLY the same situation I had with the GTQC. Sent it back twice and it came back broken once. Honestly, it might have come back broken twice - I can't remember whether it took me three times to get it fixed or two. Like you, I loved the sound of the unit, but felt the same way after the customer service. I've kept my mouth shut for the last several years about it because I really liked the product and thought maybe my experience was just an aberration. But I recently asked Jeff to come on here - mentioned there were fans here - he read a post of me praising the unit, but mentioning I had problems with it and apparently got offended. HE got offended...after I spent an assload on his product and received incredibly bad customer service...Anyway...I won't bother to keep my experiences to myself anymore. |
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Post by nobtwiddler on Nov 25, 2013 9:44:31 GMT -6
I like you, have or had no intentions on hurting the man or his company...
Like I said, I found Geoff to be a very likable guy, and the mixer was one of the best I ever heard.
I'm just telling my story.
I've kept quiet for years, and years. But I do believe forums like this are exactly where these issues need to be discussed amongst our piers, as to possibly help them with their decision on equipment purchases.
I literally threw $3500 away in a few months... a substantial amount of my time and money wasted.
Oh well...
Now back to our regularly scheduled program....
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Post by nobtwiddler on Nov 25, 2013 10:07:15 GMT -6
The final chapter in my ultimate 8 track recorder search was written just about a year ago. At the time I had heard the IZ was releasing a new Radar version 6. So I called Barry, and asked him what's up? He told me that the new unit addressed most of my requests for my portable rig. In fact it not only hit all the specifics I had requested, but it does much, more then I could ever hope for. (could it be a case where a manufacturer actually listens to their customers requests? I think so!) So I bought one. At that point my search for a recorder was over, I have the machine I always dreamed of. Now it time to finish outfitting the rest of the unit so that it was the ultimate remote recording rig...... Attachments:
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Post by scumbum on Nov 25, 2013 11:42:09 GMT -6
DUDE !!!!! Radar 6 is Awesome !!!
I think it literally is the BEST recording device out right now . The features are unbelievable . Heres a video I found ,
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Post by nobtwiddler on Nov 25, 2013 19:03:51 GMT -6
Yep,
It's the real deal!
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Post by nobtwiddler on Jul 26, 2021 14:43:18 GMT -6
Anybody else jump on the 8 channel bandwagon?
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Post by EmRR on Jul 26, 2021 15:43:56 GMT -6
I drag a Zoom F8n around for smaller things, as you have. Capture only live gigs, glorified bootleg captures at clubs, etc. Occasionally for location overdubs in interface mode with a laptop. The live radio show I'm working now, my first visit was with an ambient mic tree and the F8n, which I moved around the room to capture various POV's to see where we wanted the room mics to live permanently. Very handy for that, and easy to sync later with the multitrack from FOH.
I'll add that I do a lot of duo and trio things that would have formerly fit easily into 8 tracks, but now I do a lot of multi-mic techniques that eat a lot of tracks, so track count is higher but the overall approach is still pretty much live and simple.
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No , it was slaving away at a computer making some crappy music that I don't ever wanna listen too ever again !
