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Post by NoFilterChuck on Aug 11, 2016 22:00:18 GMT -6
westom aren't most smoke detectors battery powered? they're not wired into the electrical system where I live. I've actually never seen one wired in every place i have lived. they're always powered with a 9v battery.. You know what is great protection? BackBlaze + FiOS 100/100. Esp. now that backblaze gives you access to the previous month's worth of changes to a file once it's uploaded to their system.
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Post by drbill on Aug 12, 2016 0:28:06 GMT -6
I'm not weston, and I'm not a building inspector, but on the last addition I did, new homes or remodels needed to be hardwired with battery backup.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 12, 2016 5:58:37 GMT -6
See my post higher up in the thread. I mainly use these units to get the outlet count that I need for all my devices and having a single power switch to fire up the system. Then why spend tens of dollars more for something that can even make fire more likely? Your best solution is something that is much safer such as $5 power strip from Walmart. That safer strip has many plug connections, a power switch, a 15 amp circuit breaker (that feature ios critical), has a UL approval label (also critical), and has no protector parts. It says nothing about UL1449 and says nothing about joules - to increase your life expectancy. Send me the link to the device that's tens of dollars cheaper. I searched, no luck.
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Post by westom on Aug 12, 2016 16:11:52 GMT -6
"Send me the link to the device that's tens of dollars cheaper. I searched, no luck." I am confused by this request. When someone recommends a wire, do you need a link? When someone recommends rice, do you need a link? When someone recommends water, do you need a link? Ineffective protectors are promoted by 'links'. Effective protectors are commodities - ubiquitous. Everything necessary to select a best solution was in "Lightning is typically 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. That defines protector life expectancy over many surges and many decades. Effective protector costs about $1 per protected appliance." So what did you search for? Detail your confusion so that something helpful can be posted.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 12, 2016 16:44:06 GMT -6
"Send me the link to the device that's tens of dollars cheaper. I searched, no luck." I am confused by this request. When someone recommends a wire, do you need a link? When someone recommends rice, do you need a link? When someone recommends water, do you need a link? Ineffective protectors are promoted by 'links'. Effective protectors are commodities - ubiquitous. Everything necessary to select a best solution was in "Lightning is typically 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. That defines protector life expectancy over many surges and many decades. Effective protector costs about $1 per protected appliance." So what did you search for? Detail your confusion so that something helpful can be posted. You're off the chain buddy. You told me that the $20 Belkin unit that I use as a master power switch is more likely to cause a fire than some cheaper unit that offers me 12 outlets. I did a quick search on Walmart, like you suggested, and didn't find anything.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 12, 2016 16:49:07 GMT -6
"Send me the link to the device that's tens of dollars cheaper. I searched, no luck." I am confused by this request. When someone recommends a wire, do you need a link? When someone recommends rice, do you need a link? When someone recommends water, do you need a link? Ineffective protectors are promoted by 'links'. Effective protectors are commodities - ubiquitous. Everything necessary to select a best solution was in "Lightning is typically 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. That defines protector life expectancy over many surges and many decades. Effective protector costs about $1 per protected appliance." So what did you search for? Detail your confusion so that something helpful can be posted. So, instead of writing a novel, you're suggesting something similar to this. m.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-FirstSurge-Power-60kA-Whole-House-Surge-Protection-Device-FS060/206512344Links work wonders huh?
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 12, 2016 17:04:37 GMT -6
Westom has talked about industries where we don't see any inruption of service as though their solution is simply based on good grounding and lightning protection,Well he has obviously not spent much time in theses industries or facilities. I just spent the day in a major data center and my first thought as I looked at these racks? "Shit I wish I was their Mid- Atlantic dealer" ! The racks were nothing, it was all the high end Middle Atlantic Power Conditioning and Sequencing! Now I have known the guy behind this place since birth and he is not one to invest in anything that isn't needed, and he's spent a ton on power protection because "shit happens and it works"! Now as to another thing that makes many of these places seam like they are immune, redundancy! Anybody from the world of broadcast or live knows you always have a back up! Not everybody is Delta!
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Post by drbill on Aug 12, 2016 17:25:21 GMT -6
Westom has talked about industries where we don't see any inruption of service as though their solution is simply based on good grounding and lightning protection,Well he has obviously not spent much time in theses industries or facilities. I just spent the day in a major data center and my first thought as I looked at these racks? "Shit I wish I was their Mid- Atlantic dealer" ! The racks were nothing, it was all the high end Middle Atlantic Power Conditioning and Sequencing! Now I have known the guy behind this place since birth and he is not one to invest in anything that isn't needed, and he's spent a ton on power protection because "shit happens and it works"! Now as to another thing that makes many of these places seam like they are immune, redundancy! Anybody from the world of broadcast or live knows you always have a back up! Not everybody is Delta! Exactly. To insinuate that it's all useless snake oil is kind of short sighted (I'm being kind here.....)
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Post by ericn on Aug 12, 2016 17:34:54 GMT -6
Westom has talked about industries where we don't see any inruption of service as though their solution is simply based on good grounding and lightning protection,Well he has obviously not spent much time in theses industries or facilities. I just spent the day in a major data center and my first thought as I looked at these racks? "Shit I wish I was their Mid- Atlantic dealer" ! The racks were nothing, it was all the high end Middle Atlantic Power Conditioning and Sequencing! Now I have known the guy behind this place since birth and he is not one to invest in anything that isn't needed, and he's spent a ton on power protection because "shit happens and it works"! Now as to another thing that makes many of these places seam like they are immune, redundancy! Anybody from the world of broadcast or live knows you always have a back up! Not everybody is Delta! Exactly. To insinuate that it's all useless snake oil is kind of short sighted (I'm being kind here.....) Yes ! Good power system protection isn't rocket science , the problem is it's not a one size fits all environment and that's a hard sell like a modular console in a Banjo Depot world ! Example with a normal of 94-97 volts Voltage regulation was a must in Galveston so besides floaties al my racks had voltage regulators not needed in KC! There is a ton of BS out there but it's really easy with a an Oscilloscope and and VOM you can learn a lot of what you need!
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Post by westom on Aug 12, 2016 20:02:50 GMT -6
Where is a problem? You have cited something that is tens of times cheaper than the Belkin. After all, how many Belkins must be installed to attempt effective protection? 70? 120? Meanwhile, equivalent protectors from other manufacturers are even cheaper. Be surprised. A store price can be much less than their internet division. I once paid $40 for it. I have seen that price now rise to as much as $60. Which is less than $1 per protected appliance. You did not apologize for your acidity. Simply learn from your mistake and move on. BTW, I see no reference to what you need to have effective protection. Never assume a 'box' is the protection. A point was made repeatedly because so many have trouble appreciating what requires most attention.
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Post by westom on Aug 12, 2016 20:10:09 GMT -6
Westom has talked about industries where we don't see any inruption of service as though their solution is simply based on good grounding and lightning protection, Apples and oranges. Which anomaly is relevant? Power interruption (backup power) is a completely different anomaly addressed by completely different hardware. Why assume all anomalies are same? Nothing addresses all anomalies. We are not even discussing commercial or industrial wide protection. We are comparing some tiny and expensive magic box protector with something that actually protects from that anomaly. At no time was blackout protection same as transient protection. Do you want protection from something that exists maybe once every seven years and destroys hardware? Or do you want something that only means hardware must be restarted - without any damage? Do you want to protect transistors? Or protect unsaved data? Different anomalies require different solutions. Apples and oranges. Why do some post cheapshots rather than discuss like an adult? Some get angry rather admit this simple stuff was never learned. Some get angry because advertising myths were their only information source -with no spec numbers. As M57 said, "I've never had a power outage break any of my equipment". Of course. Blackouts do not cause hardware damage. Transients do. Two completely different anomalies.
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Post by drbill on Aug 12, 2016 20:35:22 GMT -6
I have had a power outage take out VERY expensive equipment. Perhaps it was the inrush of uncontrolled power upon power being restored - you can call it what you like - but it was instigated by a power outage.
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Post by ericn on Aug 12, 2016 20:49:15 GMT -6
I have had a power outage take out VERY expensive equipment. Perhaps it was the inrush of uncontrolled power upon power being restored - you can call it what you like - but it was instigated by a power outage. I have seen the same problem all to often. There is a huge difference between waiting for the insurance claim and working !
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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 12, 2016 23:10:20 GMT -6
There must be some kind of language barrier here. If that's the case, I'm sorry.
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Post by keymod on Aug 13, 2016 4:05:12 GMT -6
I hit the "like" button on several posts in this thread because of the fact that they reference the need for a proper and safe service ground. Without that, nothing else matters. With that, there is still no guarantee that you will never get lightening damage, even with other means of protection. However, with that, I would still go Dr. Bill's route if budget allows. Proper service and equipment ground is the most mis-understood and abused side of electrical installations. In over thirty years as an electrician, twenty as a Master Electrician, I have seen so many improper and outright dangerous grounding issues that have been done by "electricians" that it boggles the mind.
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Post by westom on Aug 13, 2016 9:44:23 GMT -6
I have had a power outage take out VERY expensive equipment. Perhaps it was the inrush of uncontrolled power upon power being restored - you can call it what you like - but it was instigated by a power outage. No massive inrush of uncontrolled power exists. Upon power restoration, voltage rises quite slowly due to so many devices starting at once. That is hard on motorized appliances. And is ideal for electronics. In fact, we sometimes design electronics to duplicate this slowly rising voltage - to increase electronic life expectancy. Best is to turn off only motorized appliances until power is restored and stable. To protect from a 'surge' called a slowly increasing voltage. Power outage did not create damage. Power outage would have coincided with something that did damage. That something may have also created that power outage. Power outages do not damage any equipment; as required by so many international design standards that existed decades before PCs even existed. What one sees, if not tempered by will proven knowledge and numbers, is how junk science conclusions are created. If you know a power outage caused damage, then cite an internal part damaged by that outage. And a datasheet number that says damage can happen. No datasheet numbers exist. No damaged component is defined. Only speculation proves a power outage does hardware damage. Power outage is a threat to unsaved data. Even saved data is not at risk.
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Post by aremos on Aug 13, 2016 10:26:38 GMT -6
So, a direct question ... from a musician, who's not an electrician or engineer: For a home studio (2 car garage turned into "state-of-the-art" room), how/what can I obtain/do to solely protect the equipment from power anomalies? What can you recommend?
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Post by ericn on Aug 13, 2016 10:27:50 GMT -6
I have had a power outage take out VERY expensive equipment. Perhaps it was the inrush of uncontrolled power upon power being restored - you can call it what you like - but it was instigated by a power outage. No massive inrush of uncontrolled power exists. Upon power restoration, voltage rises quite slowly due to so many devices starting at once. That is hard on motorized appliances. And is ideal for electronics. In fact, we sometimes design electronics to duplicate this slowly rising voltage - to increase electronic life expectancy. Best is to turn off only motorized appliances until power is restored and stable. To protect from a 'surge' called a slowly increasing voltage. Power outage did not create damage. Power outage would have coincided with something that did damage. That something may have also created that power outage. Power outages do not damage any equipment; as required by so many international design standards that existed decades before PCs even existed. What one sees, if not tempered by will proven knowledge and numbers, is how junk science conclusions are created. If you know a power outage caused damage, then cite an internal part damaged by that outage. And a datasheet number that says damage can happen. No datasheet numbers exist. No damaged component is defined. Only speculation proves a power outage does hardware damage. Power outage is a threat to unsaved data. Even saved data is not at risk. The problem after an outage is often unbalanced service, transformers damaged down the line ! After a major outage voltage is often quite spikey because of this as well as sudden demands while various systems come back on line. Not only did my grandfather who ran a powerplant teach me this but I have matched a VOM plugged into an outlet after a major outage before reconnecting my equipment ! The bottom line is this utilities are in a rush to deliver power to customers any power not good clean safe power! While their isn't a huge voltage spike there are many little spikes just if not more dangerous !
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Post by westom on Aug 13, 2016 10:44:22 GMT -6
While their isn't a huge voltage spike there are many little spikes just if not more dangerous ! Little spikes are already made irrelevant by what is required inside appliances. For example, my 120 v pure sine wave UPS outputs 200 volt square waves with spikes of up to 270 volts. That is ideal power to all electronics due to what must already exist. BTW, it is called sine wave UPS because square waves and spikes are created by a sum of pure sine waves. Subjective advertising play consumers this way. Power restoration does not create more than 600 volts spikes on 120 volt service. Spikes might be tens of volts - well below what all appliance must handle. So it is not destructive. Other anomalies can exist. For example, a neutral faied on one house. So telephones rang incessantly in neighborhood houses. First house long had no earth ground. So AC electricity used TV cable wires to connect via other homes. Using IR googles, firemen could see that cable TV wire inside the walls glowing red hot. Another anomaly that would not exist had that homeowner maintained what he is responsible for - earth ground. I can tell stories about this stuff forever since I did this stuff. Explains why I have numbers that say what can do damage, what must exist to avert damage, and what is best called a scam.
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Post by keymod on Aug 13, 2016 12:33:36 GMT -6
I'm not weston, and I'm not a building inspector, but on the last addition I did, new homes or remodels needed to be hardwired with battery backup. This. AC/DC with interconnect.If one goes off, they all go off. Different though if you have an alarm company install low voltage ones that are monitored and automatically call out to fire and police.
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Post by westom on Aug 14, 2016 8:06:12 GMT -6
For a home studio (2 car garage turned into "state-of-the-art" room), how/what can I obtain/do to solely protect the equipment from power anomalies? Threre is and cannot be any one device that will protect from all anonamlies - except a full house power plant. If you do not have a 'whole house' solution, then you did not spend near zero money to avert a potentially destructive transient that might occur once every seven years. That one anomaly rarely does damage - and is averted by spending near zero money. It already exists on all other incoming utilities. Why not already have it on AC? A backup power device does not protect equipment. That only provides temporary (and sometimes dirty) power. Power outage is an anomaly that does not damage anything. What other anomaly concerns you? In a decade, how many clocks, TVs, dishwashers, light bulbs, and smoke detectors were replaced due to damage from an anomaly? None? Common anomalies are already made irrelevant by what is inside appliances or by what the utility already does to avert damage.
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Post by aremos on Aug 14, 2016 8:51:40 GMT -6
Ok, thanks for the "answer". One last thing! The power utility company here in South FLorida (FPL) is offering a surge protection program for $10./month. Is this worth it? (A device installed under the meter, etc.)
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 14, 2016 9:09:41 GMT -6
westom, I've been following this thread a little, and no disrespect intended, I've found your posts confusing. Am I correct that English is not your first language?
I'm kind of a recovered audiophile. Twenty years ago I spent time on audiophile sites, arguing with know it all blockheads who insisted "digital was digital, it's just ones and zeroes". They couldn't wrap their heads around what eventually became know as jitter. I never received a single apology for the ridiculously high level of vitriol either. It almost got down to personal threats!
I've had the experience of hearing differences between different brands of cabling, interconnects, power cords and power centers, and have had heated discussions about that too. Sorry, I'm a musician, and while my aural sense is refined, my electrical knowledge is minimal.
Here's where I'm going, I've heard improvements in noise floor and soundstage when switching power centers and power cords. I don't really care about why, or to argue the point either. I just use what sounds best to me.
One time, I lived in an apartment and lightening came through my gear, sparks flew out of my TV set's speaker although it was turned off at the time, smoke was rising, all my electronic gear was fried. A VCR, stereo amp, preamps, DVD player, etc, etc.. I think at that time, I had things plugged into standard quality multiple outlet power centers. Now, I have a similar situation, except with recording gear and my stereo system. As someone renting an apartment with no control over grounding, what would I need to prevent the same disaster from happening again?
Or is it just not possible?
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Post by keymod on Aug 14, 2016 10:15:09 GMT -6
While their isn't a huge voltage spike there are many little spikes just if not more dangerous ! Another anomaly that would not exist had that homeowner maintained what he is responsible for - earth ground. I have to take exception to that statement. No way is a homeowner responsible for maintaining earth ground, or anything related to the electrical system. A typical homeowner doesn't know earth ground from ocean water. The local Authority, having jurisdiction ( Building Inspector, Electrical Inspector ) is responsible to give the OK on an installation AFTER a properly Licensed, Bonded and Insured Electrical Contractor does the installation. The local Utility has very little say in the matter and can't even provide power until the Building Official gives the go-ahead. If there is any doubt about an existing installation, said Electrical Contractor should be consulted. Even if the homeowner "thinks" he knows enough to do it himself, permits and inspections are still required. Do it yourself, do it wrong, and say goodbye to any Insurance protection if something goes wrong somewhere down the line.
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Post by keymod on Aug 14, 2016 10:17:47 GMT -6
Martin, the only way to guarantee nothing will happen from lightening is to unplug everything from the electrical system.
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