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Post by joseph on May 10, 2016 10:46:41 GMT -6
Here's a good thread. thewombforums.com/showthread.php?23682-The-weedywet-4-5-mic-drum-techniqueOften I'll do this modified Glyn Johns thing where you capture the rack tom with the overhead (positioned peaking over the kit pointed at the snare instead of directly over the snare) rather than use a close mic. A similar thing is having an LDC peaking over the top of the kick drum.
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Post by kevinnyc on May 12, 2016 16:02:32 GMT -6
Kick: EV N/D868 + Yamaha sub kick-> API 3124 Oh, man, I love those N/D 868s on kick and floor toms. I've only been able to use them when I was doing mobile recording (one of the bands I worked with had a couple of 'em laying around) - they worked great! They didn't sound too scooped (like a lot of kick mics do) but were definitely getting me moving towards a finished drum sound before I even had the input gain fine-tuned. I just picked up the N/D 868 on the cheap. I knew the instant I heard it that it was my favorite kick drum mic. I'm always surprised that it doesn't seem to get much love or attention.
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Post by jeremygillespie on May 13, 2016 15:56:50 GMT -6
Glyn Johns using 67's for "OH" Into 1081's Kick in - M88 - Spectra Sonics Kick Out - FET47 - 1081 Snare Top - M88/57/451 - Spectra Sonics Snare Bottom - 441 - 1081 Hat - 451/km84 - 1081 Toms - M88 - 1081 Ride - Usually none, if needed Km84 - 1081 Room - Blum Pair of 4038 or Fatheads - TG2 - Pye Comps set to stun
Sometimes I'll do spaced pair OH's instead of Glyn for pop music, Also I've switched the 67's out for an SM69 which is pretty cool in a tight room.
Joe Ferla turned me onto the M88 and after that I haven't touched a 421.
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Post by svart on May 16, 2016 8:09:46 GMT -6
What are you guys doing? - Kick in and out?
- Snare up and down?
- Stereo or Mono room? If doing stereo room mics, how are you aligning them? XY? Spaced pair on different sides of the room? Mid/Side? Blumlein?
- Front of kit mic?
What do you guys have cooking beyond just the basic micing each drum and a pair of overheads?
In: D6 in the vent hole, positioned so the mic is about halfway through the hole pointed at the beater impact point. Out: Currently using a speaker as a "subkick". Snare top: I5 all day long. Snare bot: Beta 57. Mono room/Front of kit: R121 and U47 (to choose during mixdown) Toms: always ATM25. OH: M930's usually, sometimes KM184's. I seem to gravitating towards saturation on stuff.. Either driving the preamps hard, or using something like the 2254/33609 compressor to get more grit out of them on drum bussing. Otherwise it's just balance that drives the sound.
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Post by Ward on May 16, 2016 9:02:01 GMT -6
svart amazing what those M930s are like on Overheads, right? Took me a year to put mine to use there but BAM, natural capture. Nailed!
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Post by svart on May 16, 2016 13:04:31 GMT -6
svart amazing what those M930s are like on Overheads, right? Took me a year to put mine to use there but BAM, natural capture. Nailed! Nothing has been able to dethrone them on overheads for me. Many years ago, when Gefell was still relatively unknown, I was looking for a pair of workhorse mics.. I tried ribbons, 414's, etc. Someone over at GDIY suggested the M930's, and I ordered a pair to the only pro-audio store in Atlanta that could get them at the time with the promise I could return them if I chose to.. And they never went back. They are simply the best all-around, low-noise, LDC mics available. They might be a little expensive up front, but they've been the best at so much. My desert island mic!
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Post by strangeways on May 16, 2016 23:02:58 GMT -6
Lately i've settled on...
Kick- 2x Senn e602. One about an inch or 2 outside the port. The other same distance out dead center on reso head. Sage pres into dbx160 used as an attenuator so i can crank the sages up. BOOM!!!
Snare- 57 or I5 top into VP28/Hairball Silver API clone and sometimes a Distressor. Akg 452 bottom into Eisen Api clone.
Toms- Oktava 012's always and forever. Into Eisen Neveish pres.
Mono FOK/OH- TOMB Group buy ribbon. Usually into a benchmark pre.
Rooms- Oktava 012's about 15 ft out and pointed away from the kit. Spaced about 15 ft apart. Into a Benchmark pre and a Fatso with warmth on 2 and 0 LED blinking on transients.
Some wildcard mic. Stuck in a closet or over kit or heart mic. Just something to destroy if i need it. Usually through a studiomaster set to stun.
HH Mic if the drummer is doing cool accents. Through a Benchmark. Usually an AKG 452.
That's usually it. If there's channels left over, maybe another snare top for contrast. I usually lean on my rooms and FOK mics for overall and reinforce with close mics.
D.
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Post by svart on May 17, 2016 10:55:38 GMT -6
BTW, here's some drums from the other day with the setup as described above: theopiumdenproductions.com/WGD2016/Change.mp3The toms aren't edited or balanced with the mix and the guitar/bass stuff is scratch for pre-production testing of tone.
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Post by Ward on May 17, 2016 17:37:33 GMT -6
svart I'd much rather hear that without the guitar or at least with it much much lower in the mix. I'm hearing hints of GREAT drum sounds underneath. But I want to listen to every nuance. I'm just weird that way.
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Post by svart on May 17, 2016 21:30:01 GMT -6
svart I'd much rather hear that without the guitar or at least with it much much lower in the mix. I'm hearing hints of GREAT drum sounds underneath. But I want to listen to every nuance. I'm just weird that way. Here you go: www.theopiumdenproductions.com/WGD2016/Change2.mp3About halfway through I cut the reverb so you can hear the drums dry as well. Here's the treatment too: Snare - 1176, a little 10K. Kick in - Gate Kick out - Gate, low pass around 125hz Kick combined - Cut around 150 to 200, boost around 10k. OH - 1176, HPF around 300, shelving cut around 1k and narrow boost around 12k. Toms - some general mid cut around 300 and 700. Drum bus - 33609 Main bus - SSL G Drums are (semi) Vintage Yamaha Recording customs with remo pinstripes. Snare is Black Magic with Emperor CS dot coated. 1/2 Moongel on the Remo logo. Cymbals are Sabian of some kind, brought by the drummer. Non-shiny/machined AAX I believe.
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Post by Ward on May 18, 2016 6:22:46 GMT -6
That's an extremely warm drum sound, svart, with just the right amount of definition. Do you plan on brightening up the snare any? The verb on the first 2:30 of the track tends to muddy the snare but doesn't really affect anything else negatively. I really think you should try a Telefunken M8 in the top of that snare instead of the I5. But JMHO!
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Post by svart on May 18, 2016 6:56:24 GMT -6
That's an extremely warm drum sound, svart , with just the right amount of definition. Do you plan on brightening up the snare any? The verb on the first 2:30 of the track tends to muddy the snare but doesn't really affect anything else negatively. I really think you should try a Telefunken M8 in the top of that snare instead of the I5. But JMHO! I probably will, depending on the rest of the mix. I already have some 10K on the snare, but will likely add some more, or bring up the bottom snare mic a bit more (I'll gate the natural snares and add some white noise to make it more consistent) depending on the balance between impact and definition I need once bass and guitars are done. I do have my M80 now, and need to do that shootout I was talking about in the other thread. For the rest of this band's songs I might end up just using the I5 for the rest, for the sake of consistency, but I can say that just a quick comparison has the I5 sounding brighter than the M80 naturally, although it's a bit more mid scooped than the M80 sounds. The Recording Custom drums are 80's birch, and have a really warm sound overall. I tune medium-loose with high resonance and then dampen slightly for that warmer splat. The kids love it. Which is good, because I've always had problems with drums being TOO warm and dark. I'm not sure why, since almost everyone else who sends me drums to mix supplies tracks that are way too bright with barely any bottom end.
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Post by Ward on May 18, 2016 7:11:24 GMT -6
Which is good, because I've always had problems with drums being TOO warm and dark. I'm not sure why, since almost everyone else who sends me drums to mix supplies tracks that are way too bright with barely any bottom end. Possibly because the use of HPFs on microphones is too easily accessible and usable and a quick and dirty solution to bringing out attack and impressing the drummer/band whilst tracking?
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Post by indiehouse on May 18, 2016 7:39:16 GMT -6
Any samples mixed in on that kick, svart?
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Post by svart on May 18, 2016 8:21:35 GMT -6
Which is good, because I've always had problems with drums being TOO warm and dark. I'm not sure why, since almost everyone else who sends me drums to mix supplies tracks that are way too bright with barely any bottom end. Possibly because the use of HPFs on microphones is too easily accessible and usable and a quick and dirty solution to bringing out attack and impressing the drummer/band whilst tracking? Possibly, but at the level of the clients I work with, it's more likely they don't even know to do that.. Even more professionally tracked tracks I've received seem to have much less beef than mine naturally do. Maybe it's just a combination of the mics and preamps, but I generally just use (C)API and Neve stuff, nothing terribly out of the ordinary. I guess it could be my room too, but extensive bass trapping didn't seem to change the overall tonality, just the problems.
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Post by svart on May 18, 2016 8:26:50 GMT -6
Any samples mixed in on that kick, svart ? Nope. It's just a combination of tuning, beater choice, etc. I think I have the drum tuned low, like 50hz or so (barely above wrinkle) according to a Tunebot. The beater is hard plastic. I have a kickpad on the drum head. The kick head is an evans EMAD with the medium ring. The resonant head is remo medium something with no dampening. Inside the drum I have a foam pad for dampening but it does not touch the heads. From there, it's just getting the inside mic position balanced (for click and mids) and then adding the "subkick" speaker at the right place (middle of resonant head, about 8" back), low passing it, and then mixing them together. I mainly use the D6 for the click and tone, and the subkick for the lows. No low EQ boost is happening and no RennBass or anything like that.
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Post by indiehouse on May 18, 2016 8:44:14 GMT -6
Any samples mixed in on that kick, svart ? Nope. It's just a combination of tuning, beater choice, etc. I think I have the drum tuned low, like 50hz or so (barely above wrinkle) according to a Tunebot. The beater is hard plastic. I have a kickpad on the drum head. The kick head is an evans EMAD with the medium ring. The resonant head is remo medium something with no dampening. Inside the drum I have a foam pad for dampening but it does not touch the heads. From there, it's just getting the inside mic position balanced (for click and mids) and then adding the "subkick" speaker at the right place (middle of resonant head, about 8" back), low passing it, and then mixing them together. I mainly use the D6 for the click and tone, and the subkick for the lows. No low EQ boost is happening and no RennBass or anything like that. Nice, man!
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Post by svart on May 18, 2016 8:48:13 GMT -6
Nope. It's just a combination of tuning, beater choice, etc. I think I have the drum tuned low, like 50hz or so (barely above wrinkle) according to a Tunebot. The beater is hard plastic. I have a kickpad on the drum head. The kick head is an evans EMAD with the medium ring. The resonant head is remo medium something with no dampening. Inside the drum I have a foam pad for dampening but it does not touch the heads. From there, it's just getting the inside mic position balanced (for click and mids) and then adding the "subkick" speaker at the right place (middle of resonant head, about 8" back), low passing it, and then mixing them together. I mainly use the D6 for the click and tone, and the subkick for the lows. No low EQ boost is happening and no RennBass or anything like that. Nice, man! Thanks! You can kinda see it here:
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Post by Guitar on May 23, 2016 9:20:52 GMT -6
svart, what is the reverb on these drums? it reminds me of my Eventide UltraReverb in tone. Great sounds. I almost like listening to the drums alone better than with the guitar. For the wacky artsy type there would be possibilities for arrangement there. Like make it a 10 minute song with a long drum intro, or I don't know! Maybe for the live version.
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Post by svart on May 23, 2016 9:30:29 GMT -6
svart , what is the reverb on these drums? it reminds me of my Eventide UltraReverb in tone. Great sounds. I almost like listening to the drums alone better than with the guitar. For the wacky artsy type there would be possibilities for arrangement there. Like make it a 10 minute song with a long drum intro, or I don't know! Maybe for the live version. TC M-one hardware reverb. I think it was the live drum preset or something I just threw up to give it some verb for testing.
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Post by Guitar on May 23, 2016 9:52:53 GMT -6
I use a single mic to capture the whole kit, waist high, about 3 or 4 feet in front of the kit, more to the hi hat side where the mic can "see" the snare. If I'm missing anything, it's only really a bit of the floor tom. To me it's a good sacrifice for perfect phase relationship and mono compatibility. I also use a speaker microphone (DIY subkick) to fill out the low end. It has almost no bleed at all, just really fills out the bottom in the mix. Sometimes I abuse this low end in the mix but I try to keep it sane. Sometimes VOG is used to create just the right tone on the subkick. Or some times I just bring it up flat until you can just hear it fill the bottom. The main mic has been the DW276, which is a tube condenser I designed using a K67 capsule and a C12 amplifier. Lately I have been using the MXL R80 ribbon instead. I place it slightly closer since it is a fig-8, to control the ambience coming in the back of the mic. This mic has taught me that I love ribbons on drums, and is ridiculously good sounding for the price. Moongels are cut into three smaller pieces. The toms get two each, and the snare gets one. Move the snare gel around to get the right ring. The main thing besides changing the mics is choosing the right snare, and I've got a small collection going. Mono drums are really working for me. You can put it up the middle and get a huge sound with guitars going left and right, or you can get all British and make it sound smaller in a dense mix and pan it wherever you like. The stereo image is not something I really miss right now. If I did want it stereo I might add some room mics. Usually I'm getting my stereo image with other instruments. I was reading the old 11-page "What Drum Overhead" thread on gslutz and the thing that struck me about it was you could replace every post with the sentence "Literally any good or great microphone." Of course it really is fun and rewarding to tailor a drum recording. But yep, player, room, and kit all day. I'll probably pull out the 13 mic kit again one of these days, but right now I am really enjoying just rocking out and not having to do all this setup and mix work. It allows me to work much faster and much more freely, which is a necessity because I only get to play a few times a week due to noise issues, and I'm the one playing and recording at the same time, so I have to K.I.S.S.. I'm more of a John Bonham than a Dave Grohl anyway. Hahaha yeah right! Attachment Deleted
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Post by terryrocks on Feb 16, 2017 14:49:15 GMT -6
I'm pretty much constantly changing a few variables, but my current setup that's working very well in my 7ft ceiling basement: stereo oh - xy - oktavamodded 012 - vp28 stereo front of kit - m/s - avantone ck-40 - vp28 stereo ambient room - blumlein - bv2 - sytek mono far room(crush) - oktava 012 - black lion autuer kick out - sennheiser e602 - vp26 snare - ev nd468 - vp26 rack tom - beyerdynamic m88 - hamptone jfet floor tom top - atm25 - hamptone jfet floor tom bottom - oktava 012 - sytek the floor tom bottom mic is pretty neat when the reso head is tuned properly. this song is in still in production, but used this setup: www.dropbox.com/s/qoszgwl59seopao/SOFTYPANTS2.mp3?dl=0
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Post by gouge on Feb 19, 2017 1:49:10 GMT -6
always fun to read back through these posts.
i'm constantly trying new stuff. guess that means i still haven't worked out the best technique. recently though I have fallen IN LOVE with glyn johns method. it's the smooth cymbals and the natural tones that sound right to me with that setup. plus i can go mono with just the over snare mic during mixing. so that's my new thing. 3 mics is also something I am goigng to focus more on.
for heavier bands though, I've been using 2 stereo setups and picking my preference during mixing. I still like the sound of m/s
so my basic setup is.
glyn johns pair 2xgefell pm860 mics into lola preamps. snare shure 545l/vp28 kick beyer m380/ma-5 hallway rca sk46/daking.
for heavy bands I then add
m/s pair about 3 feet infront. akg 414 card mid / jolly modified rsm4 side both into sytek preamps. rack toms ksm137/sytek floor tom jolly mod ntk/daking
i always try something new every session and last session that was stock mk012 Omni/vp28 placed between kick and snare pointing at the floor as a mono mic. i like the sound but will need to find a fatter mic to get a bigger kick sound.
i think it will be a while before i change again. i'm fairly settled on most of the mics in those positions and the phase issues are being removed. i'm also getting better at tuning a kit. slowly.
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Post by Guitar on Feb 19, 2017 7:16:00 GMT -6
Yes indeed!
Lately I have an SDC XY pair above the kit, using Massenberg and other's idea of the center line being where the snare and kick are in the center of the recorded image, rather than some sort of 'visual symmetry' just looking at the size of things.
Then I have a Blumlein pair of ribbons about cymbal height to get the room sound, pretty close to the kit. Too far back picks up too much of my untreated room.
Kick has no hole, I use an M88TG for the front head sound and a subkick.
e604 on snare and hi tom, D112 on floor tom for that oomph.
This ends up being 9 channels so I have to use my interface pres. Clarett, DP88 and Yamaha MLA-8. This is my only big wish at this point. Besides being a better drummer. Having a rack full of neve and API preamps would give me some beef that I am missing in my sound. It's a good sound, mind you, but on my long list is some transformer channels for the drums. Maybe even just half a rack for the kick snare and overheads. And maybe some parallel compression to track a la Vance Powell (thanks for the tip, Vance). And as long as we are dreaming, it would be nice to have some pre set EQ's for the close mics. Although maybe the Apollo will eventually fill that role if I plug it back in.
One fun thing I did yesterday is pull up Groove Agent SE in Cubase, and record a few hits of Djun Djun, Djembe, snare cross stick, snare hit, closed hat, foot hat, ride, and two crashes, and then just drag and drop them to the 16 pad matrix and do a little sound shaping. Then I just finger jammed on my MPD32 pad controller and came up with this really fat sounding beat. The kick just sounded massive (pitched down djun djun). Then I got a bassline going with the Moog, now I've got this nice raw idea for a tune. It was not even anywhere close to the sound that was in my head, but it seems to me that nothing ever really is. If I could get those sounds out of my head properly I'd be a freakin' rock star, hahaha.
I have been meaning to do that for a long time, and I have to say the palette of sounds was much more gratifying than just loading up stock samples someone else made. It was also much easier than I had imagined it to be, happened very quickly.
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Post by Tbone81 on Feb 19, 2017 16:16:35 GMT -6
I noticed a lot of you guys are using m201's on snare. I've been considering that for my next mic purchase. How would you compare it to the audix i5 and/or a transformerless 57 on snare?
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