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Post by rowmat on Apr 2, 2016 0:11:03 GMT -6
Okay I need a pair (or two) of closed back headphones minus the usual bullshit smiley faced response.
All our rather excruciating Sony MDR7506's were replaced by Beyer DT770's a year or two ago which are much less hyped than the Sony's though the Beyers are still not what I would call flat.
Part of the problem may be our Behringer HA4000 headphone amp which, while capable of very high levels, is unlikely to be the cleanest thing around. The other issue is our less than pristine cue send from our rather aging Sound Workshop console which is due to eventually be replaced by a Neotek Elite.
We probably only need one or two pairs of these headphones as we'll still use our DT770's for general tracking tasks.
The reason for something totally unhyped is I've had two singers in the past two weeks who aren't used to hearing themselves sing through a $10k vocal chain and most headphones tend to exaggerate the top end which can make the cue mix sound just too forensic for some people.
I actually had one person ask to sing into an SM58 in preference over a Flea 47 into a Neve.
I got around it by setting up a SM58 next to the Flea and giving them the cue send from the SM58 instead of the Flea.
Once they heard the playback in the control room they definately preferred the Flea through the Neumann KH120 monitors but not in their headphone cue mix during tracking.
Need to keep the performer happy otherwise the vibe can disappear fast.
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Post by M57 on Apr 2, 2016 6:25:03 GMT -6
So you're looking for headphones for tracking, not mixing? ..and not for you, but for the performer? You say you want them to be flat, but the singer wants a smiley face. I'm sensing conflicting needs here.
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Post by kcatthedog on Apr 2, 2016 6:56:47 GMT -6
Have you looked at using the sonarworks headphone calibration dsp ? They have averaged calibrated files to adjust specific headphones to flat response or you can send your cans in and they calibrate for them specifically.
In terms of m57's note above, you can turn the plug off and on so the same cans can sound two different ways based on your needs and the talent's ?
here is demo video I did:
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Post by jdc on Apr 2, 2016 7:25:37 GMT -6
what about just throwing an EQ on the aux send feeding your headphone amp? then you can tweak the headphone sound as needed while still getting the recorded sound you (the qualified, paid engineer) think is best
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Post by rowmat on Apr 2, 2016 7:48:55 GMT -6
So you're looking for headphones for tracking, not mixing? ..and not for you, but for the performer? You say you want them to be flat, but the singer wants a smiley face. I'm sensing conflicting needs here. I've had a couple of singers think that because their voice sounds bright through the cans that's how it's being recorded when in fact it's the hyped high end response of the headphones. Even though I explain the what they hear in the cans isn't exactly the same as the actual recording that still doesn't help if it puts them off their performance. As a result they want me to change microphones, EQ settings etc. which I don't want to do. So no they don't want a smiley face. It's funny that I've had two females in two weeks both with the same issue. I'm aware the cans brighten the mix (most do to varying degrees) but most singers never seem to be bothered. |
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Post by rowmat on Apr 2, 2016 7:54:09 GMT -6
what about just throwing an EQ on the aux send feeding your headphone amp? then you can tweak the headphone sound as needed while still getting the recorded sound you (the qualified, paid engineer) think is best I was thinking of that but I would rather just have a set of dedicated cans than tie up an EQ. A plugin EQ on the aux/cue send may be the answer as it can be customised to suit the cans. Now that we have a new (much faster) computer about to be installed I'll look into it although we run a hybrid setup through an analog console and I usually run the cue mixes from that. |
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Post by M57 on Apr 2, 2016 8:00:39 GMT -6
Just a thought, but because the singer can be just as choosy about their headphone as the engineer is about the mic, perhaps even more so in that the headphones color the sound even more noticeably, why not have a locker of headphones for the singer to chose from, including some cheap ones? That way everyone is happy.
If your female vocalists think things are too bright, make sure you have some 'darker' headphones lying around, and just let them chose. Some nice ones as well as some inexpensive ones.. Audio Technica ATH-M50s seem a tad hyped on the bottom to me, but I enjoy tracking with them, and they are otherwise pretty flat. On the darker side, the Monoprice cheapo's (I don't know the model off-hand) are not bad, and they can take pretty high volumes. I'm just speculating that variety may be just as valuable as quality.
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Post by rowmat on Apr 2, 2016 8:02:10 GMT -6
Have you looked at using the sonarworks headphone calibration dsp ? They have averaged calibrated files to adjust specific headphones to flat response or you can send your cans in and they calibrate for them specifically. In terms of m57's note above, you can turn the plug off and on so the same cans can sound two different ways based on your needs and the talent's ? here is demo video I did: Thanks. Sounds like what I'm after if it means I can get the cue mix closer to reality. Most typical headphone responses are completely off the rails IMO. |
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Post by rowmat on Apr 2, 2016 8:13:34 GMT -6
Just a thought, but because the singer can be just as choosy about their headphone as the engineer is about the mic, perhaps even more so in that the headphones color the sound even more noticeably, why not have a locker of headphones for the singer to chose from, including some cheap ones? That way everyone is happy. If your female vocalists think things are too bright, make sure you have some 'darker' headphones lying around, and just let them chose. Some nice ones as well as some inexpensive ones.. Audio Technica ATH-M50s seem a tad hyped on the bottom to me, but I enjoy tracking with them, and they are otherwise pretty flat. On the darker side, the Monoprice cheapo's (I don't know the model off-hand) are not bad, and they can take pretty high volumes. I'm just speculating that variety may be just as valuable as quality. We still have a couple set of Sonys (brighter than the Beyers) and some Extreme Isolation headphones which sound bloody awful. Everyone that tries all of them ends up picking the Beyers. It's two complaints in the last two weeks has prompted me to do something. I've always been aware of even the Beyers being bright but I don't mix on them and they are comfortable, handle fairly high levels without breaking up and have been generally okay for tracking. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Apr 2, 2016 8:39:30 GMT -6
you can demo the sonar works stuff and see if it is doing the trick ?
I think they have a sale on now too 20-30% off ?
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Post by rowmat on Apr 2, 2016 9:22:30 GMT -6
No wonder the Sony's used to sound like broken glass. Yikes!!  |
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Post by joseph on Apr 2, 2016 9:37:59 GMT -6
HD280s are flatter and have almost 0 leakage.
But they are not as comfortable as the Sonys, and can have cable noise.
You could also try for certain singers tracking vocals in the control room with no headphones, using the monitors. A condenser with fig 8 side nulls or dynamic with good rejection like Beyer M88 can work well for this. Could be a lot more fun too.
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Post by chasmanian on Apr 2, 2016 9:41:53 GMT -6
I like my focal spirit professional's.
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Post by longscale on Apr 2, 2016 10:32:55 GMT -6
+1 on the Focal's. They are fast and seem to translate well when I use them for tracking. Fit has been an issue for some with these, but they are ok for me.
I will say that you do want to checkout other head amps. I was on a mission not long ago to replace my old AKG K240's with something with a bit more isolation. I also was hoping to find something for tracking that would translate a bit better than what I was getting with the 240's. After going through several different headphones I switched my headamp and one of the big bass translation issues I was having went away. I was using the headamp on my HD Native interface because it was located in a good spot and in my mind I thought I'd get better latency (less) by using that. When I switched to using the headamp in my Coleman M3PH it was like night and day. The Avid box did something quite odd in the low end on my voice when I was tracking. I'd hear occasional distortion through the headphones, and I'd hear way more bass than I was actually getting when listening through my mains. The Coleman solved that issues - when previously I was thinking it was my headphones hyping the lows. I have a smallish pile of headphones that I went through trying to solve this problem when in fact it was my headamp. I've not had issues with too much hype on the highs, so your issue might be different than mine. I'd only offer that you should try a different headamp just to double check. I wish I had done that prior to buying a bunch of different closed back headphones.
The Focal's seem to be the best out of what I tried however and I still use them. But I do admit that I went back to using the 240s more often than not. I'm not sure if that is because I'm more comfortable with them having used them for many years, or if it is something else. I've not tried that many closed back headphones, but for me personally when using them for tracking I don't get along with them very well. They tend to mess up my performance when I'm singing as they all tell me I've got way to much bass (when in fact it is just fine).
The DT770s that I've got (DT770 pro 80 ohm) were really bad for pushing the bass. They lied to me bad - and nothing I heard in them translated to what I got.
I'm still searching for something that works just right for me. In general I hate headphones. They suck the life out of my performance so I tend to avoid using them as much as possible.
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Post by odyssey76 on Apr 2, 2016 13:23:29 GMT -6
HD280s are flatter and have almost 0 leakage. But they are not as comfortable as the Sonys, and can have cable noise. You could also try for certain singers tracking vocals in the control room with no headphones, using the monitors. A condenser with fig 8 side nulls or dynamic with good rejection like Beyer M88 can work well for this. Could be a lot more fun too. I can vouch for the HD 280's. Been using them for a few years and absolutely no hype at any frequency. You can pick them up for cheap as well. |
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Post by wiz on Apr 2, 2016 15:17:17 GMT -6
I used to own the behringer headphone amp you mentioned... so I have some reference...
I am really happy with Extreme Isolation headphones.... they are tighter than normal cans. Which is their only downfall, I have had people say they are too tight.. usually people who wear glasses.. or those that have abnormaly large bonces.... 8)
One thing that I wanted to mention, as a former owner of that headphone amp...
I got a two channel headphone amp from Rob at Proharmonic... oh man.. is that thing fantastic
He did it in conjunction with Joe Malone.. and Joe sells a kit... maybe look into that at some point too...
cheers
Wiz
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Post by mrholmes on Apr 2, 2016 17:20:24 GMT -6
For the dead isolated and no hype part. The good old German Sennheiser HD 25 - made in Ireland. Loved by DJs and Studios as well. You can throw them on the wall and they still play like new. I guess they also would play after a beer shower.... www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/HD25 |
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Post by drew571 on Apr 2, 2016 19:39:35 GMT -6
Shure SRH840
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Post by miscend on Apr 3, 2016 8:39:12 GMT -6
HD280s are very difficult to beat.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Apr 4, 2016 13:40:30 GMT -6
No wonder the Sony's used to sound like broken glass. Yikes!! View AttachmentWe called them Alex Van Halen drummer phones, even if you couldn't hear above 5k with 7506's you could! |
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Apr 4, 2016 13:42:02 GMT -6
No phones are truly flat, best bet is to have a variety to please the masses!
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Post by rowmat on Apr 12, 2016 5:32:18 GMT -6
I downloaded the Sonarworks headphone calibration plugin. Currently using the default Beyer DT770 (250) profile. It definately takes out the "boom tizz". I might really scare myself and also test it out with my mothballed Sony MDR7506's!  |
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