|
Post by indiehouse on Mar 17, 2016 12:01:29 GMT -6
So I'm all laid up after a minor surgery, and can't get down to mixing for a few days. Got nothing but my phone and time to kill. At the risk of sounding rudimentary, I thought I'd start a convo about compression settings. Never hurts to brush up on the basics.
Granted I know it's all program dependent, but what compression settings to you generally reach for (i.e., fast or slow attack/release, db's of gain reduction, etc) on things like:
e.gtr acoustic bass vocal kick/snare drum bus 2 bus etc... (might be helpful to list the style of compressor for each as well)
Thought it'd be interesting and possibly open the door to new techniques. Hopefully it'll end up being a great resource as well.
|
|
|
Post by scumbum on Mar 17, 2016 12:07:07 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by svart on Mar 17, 2016 12:26:26 GMT -6
So I'm all laid up after a minor surgery, and can't get down to mixing for a few days. Got nothing but my phone and time to kill. At the risk of sounding rudimentary, I thought I'd start a convo about compression settings. Never hurts to brush up on the basics. Granted I know it's all program dependent, but what compression settings to you generally reach for (i.e., fast or slow attack/release, db's of gain reduction, etc) on things like: e.gtr Medium attack, release to taste for sustain, ratio to taste for peaks or color.acoustic Attack to taste for "pointy" sounding picking. release for sustain, 2:1 or 4:1 ratio.bass Fast attack, release to taste for least pumping, high ratio (bassists are notorious about bad dynamic control) Or use auto compressor like LA4 or DBX160 style.vocal Medium/fast attack, medium release for least pumping, multiple series compressors doing 2:1 or 3:1.kick/snare Snare usually likes fast attack, fast release, 4:1 for best tone (most big names use it to shave the front transient)drum bus Slow attack, fast release to create fake rounded transients for "fatness". 2:1 or 4:12 bus Slow attack, fast or auto release to help gel everything by making the dynamics affect all instruments. 2:1 to 4:1.etc... (might be helpful to list the style of compressor for each as well) Thought it'd be interesting and possibly open the door to new techniques. Hopefully it'll end up being a great resource as well. My preferences are above, in pink.My gain reduction rarely goes above 3-5dB for any single instrument besides bass guitar. I try to compress with more compressors in series than a single compressor doing lots of work.
|
|
|
Post by M57 on Mar 17, 2016 12:57:39 GMT -6
Can anyone explain to me how this doesn't over-squish the squash ..or why it's advantageous. I mean - let's say you're taking 6 db off the top at a 3:1 ratio. The next time you take the top 2 db off the top (at a 3:1) ratio, you'll be crushing that original 3db down to 0.66db - with a 9:1 ratio. I'm not saying it's bad - I use a bit of compression in series at times - I'm just curious what the reasoning is from a more technical pov.
|
|
|
Post by svart on Mar 17, 2016 13:30:12 GMT -6
Can anyone explain to me how this doesn't over-squish the squash ..or why it's advantageous. I mean - let's say you're taking 6 db off the top at a 3:1 ratio. The next time you take the top 2 db off the top (at a 3:1) ratio, you'll be crushing that original 3db down to 0.66db - with a 9:1 ratio. I'm not saying it's bad - I use a bit of compression in series at times - I'm just curious what the reasoning is from a more technical pov. You're thinking literal flat GR.. But compressors don't act that way. You're shaping the dynamics with the attack and release. Think of it this way.. Perfect GR with perfect program attack/release would flatten only the parts above the threshold until the signal is a perfectly flat line. But if you take a snare with an ultra fast transient that you can't normally hear very well, use a fast attack and release to just reduce that initial transient, you have a flatter signal, but the body of the impulse is large untouched. You then follow with a drum bus compressor with a slow attack that allows an amount of time to progress before compressing, and now you have a rounded impulse with slowly rising front end and then add a fast release and you'll get a quickly falling decay, creating the effect of having a much longer transient that the ear picks up. Like this: So what you are doing is working on different parts of the signal with the different compressors, for shape and color, not just for crushing dynamics. This is the trick that most pros are using when they use a lot of compressors in series. Another example is vocals. A common series compressor trick is to use a fast compressor (1176) and a slow compressor (LA2A) in series. The 1176 will be used with fast attack and fast release to catch all the really fast transients, while the LA2A reacts to absolute level, only reacting to "loud" sections. Each will be doing 3-5dB of GR but to different parts of the signal and in different ways. Using just an 1176 can lead to "too fast" compression and pumping artifacts, while only using the LA2A will still let harsh transients come through due to it's slow attack. Does that make more sense?
|
|
|
Post by schmalzy on Mar 17, 2016 13:32:49 GMT -6
Can anyone explain to me how this doesn't over-squish the squash ..or why it's advantageous. I mean - let's say you're taking 6 db off the top at a 3:1 ratio. The next time you take the top 2 db off the top (at a 3:1) ratio, you'll be crushing that original 3db down to 0.66db - with a 9:1 ratio. I'm not saying it's bad - I use a bit of compression in series at times - I'm just curious what the reasoning is from a more technical pov. I don't actually know other people are doing but I can tell you what I'm looking for when I'm using multiple coats of compression: 10 db of reduction on a source using one compressor gives you one attack characteristic with one release characteristic, one knee characteristic, and one type of saturation (if any at all). 10db of reduction on a source using a few different stages of compression (with different compressors or settings) give you a mixture of attack, release, knee, and saturation characteristics. One technique demonstrating this is something I end up using a lot of drums that have too much attack: 1. Very fast attack and release with a high ratio to smack down the spikiest portion of the transient (and as little of anything else as possible) bringing the volume of the spike closer to the volume of the rest of the drum. 4db-ish reduction. 2. Slow attack and timed release to "reshape" the sound's envelope. Makes a "longer" transient before the compression kicks in and, working the release to move with the beat, the tone of the drum comes in a little more. 3 db of reduction, maybe. 3. If desired, you could then use fast-ish attack and a medium fast release to bring the ambience out. Layers of compression are, for me, typically to nudge the sound in the right direction to accomplish a thing that a single compression envelope couldn't get done.
|
|
|
Post by NoFilterChuck on Mar 18, 2016 10:14:21 GMT -6
HOW DID YOU LEARN TO HEAR COMPRESSION? ? I'm dying over here! can't hear compression for shit!
|
|
|
Post by odyssey76 on Mar 18, 2016 10:29:41 GMT -6
HOW DID YOU LEARN TO HEAR COMPRESSION? ? I'm dying over here! can't hear compression for shit! For me, it was pushing compressors too far so that I could hear their sound. Vocals get strident and sibilant, snare drums sound like slapping boot leather, acoustic guitars get mushy and pump in a bad way, etc. I can tell right away when something has a lot of compression and you hear it a ton on vocals in modern day music. After you start hearing compression your ears can pick it out on more moderate settings and, for me, I started getting picky about the attack, release, ratio, threshold..... Compression is easily my favorite tool!
|
|
|
Post by warrenfirehouse on Mar 18, 2016 10:41:59 GMT -6
HOW DID YOU LEARN TO HEAR COMPRESSION? ? I'm dying over here! can't hear compression for shit! For me, it was pushing compressors too far so that I could hear their sound. Vocals get strident and sibilant, snare drums sound like slapping boot leather, acoustic guitars get mushy and pump in a bad way, etc. I can tell right away when something has a lot of compression and you hear it a ton on vocals in modern day music. After you start hearing compression your ears can pick it out on more moderate settings and, for me, I started getting picky about the attack, release, ratio, threshold..... Compression is easily my favorite tool! Ditto. Its alot easier to hear and set attack and release with the comp slammed at 20dbs of reduction. Get it moving the way you want, then pull back threshold and ratio to taste. These days I like to slightly clip/limit/automate peaks on some sources before the comp to try and keep the signal in the compressors sweet spot and to avoid big dynamic swings that can lead to pumping/pinching. This also lets you dig in a little deeper without ruining things.
|
|
|
Post by indiehouse on Mar 18, 2016 11:19:37 GMT -6
What about gain staging hardware comps? What level do they like to see? -18dbfs?
|
|
|
Post by Ward on Mar 18, 2016 11:53:55 GMT -6
Pump, breathe, hang, splat, smack, impact, glide, smooth, tame, control... just some of things compressors do. Knowing which one does what, how to set t and how to use it are the keys. That will help...
You could ask more pointed questions about, for example, Hugh Pagham's amazing splat on snare drum.
|
|
|
Post by swurveman on Mar 18, 2016 12:30:00 GMT -6
I can hear pumping and I can hear how compressing sources brings out the room etc. in a source, but I still haven't mastered the science of compression the entire song so that nothing pokes out. When I listen to professional mixes everything seems contained in a sound cube. I don't know how to do that myself. Any tips?
|
|
|
Post by svart on Mar 18, 2016 14:19:35 GMT -6
What about gain staging hardware comps? What level do they like to see? -18dbfs? Honestly, I'm not sure even worrying about absolute numbers like that is worthwhile. Some compressors, like the 1176 can be pushed hard on their inputs for "color" without even doing much compression. I routinely do this with my LA2A as well to get saturation that happens from the amp circuit itself. The 33609 loves high levels on it's inputs, much higher than some of the others. I can max out my master gain into the 33609 and turn up the threshold so I can keep the output gain lower, and thus less noisy. So mainly I'll jack the level into them until they either give me color I want, or I can turn down their output gains for least noise. I guess you could say that it's MUCH more important to find their working sweet spots rather than being numerically correct.
|
|
|
Post by svart on Mar 18, 2016 14:29:50 GMT -6
I can hear pumping and I can hear how compressing sources brings out the room etc. in a source, but I still haven't mastered the science of compression the entire song so that nothing pokes out. When I listen to professional mixes everything seems contained in a sound cube. I don't know how to do that myself. Any tips? I'm starting to get to that point, it's only taken more than a decade.. LOL But seriously, one of the tricks is to edit the hell out of the tracks before even putting them through hardware. Editing breaths and noise out instead of using gates.. Taming strange loud notes and things with volume automation instead of compressors, using different tracks with different EQ settings for the same guitars but during different sections (one EQ setting for the bridge, another one for the chorus), etc. And then leaving the hardware for the broad, big things. It's soooo much more about using the gear for tone and color than it is anything else. That's the part that is hardest to accept.. When you spend years thinking of a compressor as *only* a dynamics squashing device, it's really hard to imagine that you use it like a person uses one distortion pedal over another one. When you read interviews with pros like CLA, read his words carefully, and read them with the idea that he means to use each piece of gear for one or more tonal attributes of that piece of gear (that no other gear has), rather than using that gear to fix problems. I guess you could say that the problems are fixed in the DAW before the hardware is even used.
|
|
|
Post by tonycamphd on Mar 18, 2016 19:07:01 GMT -6
JMO, but there are no guides, compression is thee most powerful tool in the bag, everything I do is contingent upon the music at hand, I have some fav tonal shaping comps, and settings I can repeat for a signature sound of a particular instrument/performer i discovered, but that's only ONE of many facets that compression is good for, and accounts only for that specific instrument/performer, there is no formula beyond that as everything changes with every new song, instrument, performer, space, mic etc. One of the biggest misconceptions seems to be that compressors are dynamic range shrinking devices..., that couldn't be farther from the truth in music production, the musical use of compression INCREASES dynamics, punch and density of a track, when used well the result creates the exciting illusion of real life, in the room band dynamics, miraculously coming from 2 little speakers, but the reality remains that a lot of folks, including the vast majority of self anointed internet "teachers", haven't a clue of how to use compression beyond UUUGE amounts of smack it down and turn it up, the horrible sonic proof of this is heard everywhere these days, a dead indicator of this fail is the ridiculous energy given to sibs and slice, a wholly unpleasant, unnatural phenomenon, that is PROVEN to lead listeners to turn down, or shut off the music, slice and sizzzzz isn't exciting, it's an amateurish, and painful pandemic IMV.
If there is a "Guide"? it should be the answer to this question.. "what kind of dimensional image do i want to create?", once you answer that question, you can make logical pointed compression decisions, turning a single knob before answering that question is tantamount to getting in your car and driving around without a destination in mind(which incidentally can be fun, and creative, you never know where you may end up 8)
|
|
|
Post by mrholmes on Mar 18, 2016 19:26:44 GMT -6
So I'm all laid up after a minor surgery, and can't get down to mixing for a few days. Got nothing but my phone and time to kill. At the risk of sounding rudimentary, I thought I'd start a convo about compression settings. Never hurts to brush up on the basics. Granted I know it's all program dependent, but what compression settings to you generally reach for (i.e., fast or slow attack/release, db's of gain reduction, etc) on things like: e.gtr acoustic bass vocal kick/snare drum bus 2 bus etc... (might be helpful to list the style of compressor for each as well) Thought it'd be interesting and possibly open the door to new techniques. Hopefully it'll end up being a great resource as well. Setting up compression? It helped me lot when I read somewhere to focus on tone and beat shaping instead to think about dynamic reduction. I do think the 1176 is the best tool to train your ears for this. I love the 1176 both in HW and software....
|
|
|
Post by geoff738 on Mar 18, 2016 22:43:51 GMT -6
A few thoughts.
First, I'm just a hobbyist. For three decades. But still, just a hobbyist.
And, for ages, I couldn't really hear compression unless it was obviously pumping. And then one day a light went on and it was like oooooooohh, that's what compression can do.
To begin to start hearing it, I'd suggest setting the comp at the highest ratio, fastest attack, fastest release and threshold so that the comp is engaging but not all the time. Assuming the most common controls. If there's a knee control, go hard. A drum loop that's got some fast parts, some slow parts and fills, and hi hat work and cymbal crashes. Lots of hard transients, but also transients plus the body of the drum and hopefully a bit of room ambience on things like slow Tom fills. That gives you a whole crapload of different things and parts of the waveform to bend to your will. And listen for. A fast comp like most vcas probably works best for the learning to hear the comp working.
Now, that drum loops gonna be pumping and probably not so good sounding set at maximum compression like this. Then, play with the attack. Do you want to set it slow and let transients through, or really fast to shave them down. Or somewhere in between. Just play with the attack and listen. When you've got the attack where you want it, move on to the release. Do you want the comp to "bounce" with tracks, give it movement, or are you smoothing things out, or bringing up the room or sustain. After the release is set, I usually go to the threshold next to decide what is getting compressed, then the ratio to decide how much squash. And then, I compare the compressed signal with the no compressed signal. At the same volume level. Exactly. And then decide if the compressed signal is actually better than the non compressed version.
I think if you have a go at it for a couple hours starting with everything except threshold at max compression and then play with attack first, and the release, and then moving to ratio and threshold, whether a drum loop or a bass line, whatever, it'll start making a whole lot more sense.
And then, if your Daw or plugs model different types of comp (vca, fet, opto, vari-mu) repeat that little exercise.
And then spend the rest of your life working on refining how you use a compressor. Because once you start to be able to hear it, you can then move on to what do you want to do with the compressor, and then which one can best do that. And there are a lot of them.
ok, a lotta typing. Keep all of this in mind. I am a hobbyist. This is just how I started to get a grip on compression. Worked for me. YMMV.
Cheers, Geoff
|
|
|
Post by jazznoise on Mar 21, 2016 10:01:56 GMT -6
So I'm all laid up after a minor surgery, and can't get down to mixing for a few days. Got nothing but my phone and time to kill. At the risk of sounding rudimentary, I thought I'd start a convo about compression settings. Never hurts to brush up on the basics. Granted I know it's all program dependent, but what compression settings to you generally reach for (i.e., fast or slow attack/release, db's of gain reduction, etc) on things like: e.gtr - Orange squeezer or similar in line for country squash, limiter for more pragmatic purposesacoustic - total wildcard, I love the Beatles fast release squashed Ac. Gtr sound. Usually more like 6msAtk, 60mS Rel, 4:1bass - Peak limiter into RMS compressor. Time constants depend, more RMS for squishy and more of the peak limiter for just consistencyvocal - Same as above, really.kick/snare - 6:1 limiter, Atk goes from 2mS to 20mS depending on how the attack needs to be treated. Release is usually fast.drum bus - I don't do a drum bus, but my OH's get like a 15mS Atk and an 80mS release, rooms are similar.2 bus - I don't do this at all.etc... (might be helpful to list the style of compressor for each as well) Thought it'd be interesting and possibly open the door to new techniques. Hopefully it'll end up being a great resource as well. So clearly I like 2 stage compression and limiters. Curious - how do the non-smashers treat their room mics? I'm using fairly aggressive release times but very little gain reduction the odd time when I want the reverb to feel longer, but just as often I have nothing. Any notions?
|
|