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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 9, 2016 20:48:07 GMT -6
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Post by Quint on Mar 11, 2016 18:41:28 GMT -6
What is the Nashville number system? I don't know what it is but it sounds like something George Strait and Alan Jackson would collaborate on to convince people they shouldn't do it. :-)
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Mar 11, 2016 21:55:13 GMT -6
What is the Nashville number system? I don't know what it is but it sounds like something George Strait and Alan Jackson would collaborate on to convince people they shouldn't do it. :-) If you can get past the first few minutes of this drunk dudes video, the rest will explain it fairly decent LOL. |
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Post by Quint on Mar 13, 2016 10:56:29 GMT -6
What is the Nashville number system? I don't know what it is but it sounds like something George Strait and Alan Jackson would collaborate on to convince people they shouldn't do it. :-) If you can get past the first few minutes of this drunk dudes video, the rest will explain it fairly decent LOL. So this is basically a transcription system. What makes it "Nashville" though? It doesn't really seem any different from any other transcriptions I've seen out there except for maybe the use of the dash for minor chords. |
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Post by mhbunch on Mar 13, 2016 11:02:53 GMT -6
Quint If you can get past the first few minutes of this drunk dudes video, the rest will explain it fairly decent LOL. So this is basically a transcription system. What makes it "Nashville" though? It doesn't really seem any different from any other transcriptions I've seen out there except for maybe the use of the dash for minor chords. Numbers instead of Roman numerals |
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Post by M57 on Mar 13, 2016 11:29:59 GMT -6
So this is basically a transcription system. What makes it "Nashville" though? It doesn't really seem any different from any other transcriptions I've seen out there except for maybe the use of the dash for minor chords. Numbers instead of Roman numerals I've never used it or even seen it before, but a few searches makes it pretty clear that at a fundamental level, it's Numbers for Roman Numerals, making it a "Moveable Do" system. but after that - It's quite different with its own set of conventions - including some pretty interesting mechanisms for dealing with things like inversions and the strumming 'hits.' So for instance in the key of C a D 7/F# chord in the second inversion would be a Classical V 7/V 64 chord (figured bass), but in Nashville, it looks like a 2 7/6 - Pretty clean for Movable Do - I like. This article demonstrates a number of its capabilities pretty succinctly. Two crits that come to immediately mind are that the number 7 has two functions depending on where it sits - not a big deal, but where it might get nasty is if you start to try and expand some Jazz 'colors' like 2,9,11,13, etc.. Any nashville jazzers here could probably set me straight on that. All in all, it looks pretty robust and simple, making it a nice down and dirty notational system for song writers. |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Mar 13, 2016 15:27:19 GMT -6
It's a shorthand that was created by Charlie McCoy who was originally playing harmonica on sessions. According to Harold Bradley everybody writes their number charts differently and there has never been any "standard."
The Nashville A-Team memorized logical songs while reverting to manuscript charts for illogical songs (such as those by Roy Orbison.) Charlie couldn't keep up with their memorization skills so his solution was a chord number shorthand optimized for harmonica.
The reason for memorization and Charlie's number system was that you could change keys on a dime which was a major issue when artists had never heard most of their songs before their recording session. Back then most artists spent 300+ days on the road and couldn't afford to spend much time recording. Nashville managed to snag most major label pop music recording during the '50s and '60s because of this memorization capability. In New York, Chicago, Detroit and LA key changes meant the arranger writing out new parts that had to be copied by hand since this was pre-Xerox. As a result you were talking about at least a half hour delay. Some people assumed the A-Team couldn't read music when in fact they were almost all jazz musicians from all over the country who were sight reading fools. I've gotten to hang a bit with these guys and they are utterly incredible.
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Post by Ward on Mar 13, 2016 18:46:36 GMT -6
That is pure genius! It's like On-Song for pros and studio musicians! Thank you |
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Post by yotonic on Mar 13, 2016 19:14:11 GMT -6
I never "warmed" to the numbers system, but then again I don't earn a living as a session musician in Nashville. I prefer traditional jazz charts with notation for melody lines etc. for various reasons. I think if I was working with budding songwriter-singers and was spending a lot of time rearranging their songs and getting things in the right key for a singer then it could be useful, but most guys I work with have no trouble transposing. I'd be curious to know who uses this. Most songs coming out of Nashville, and elsewhere are so simple that it seems moving things a half step or two should be pretty simple. Perhaps it's still used by guys cranking out demos for new artists.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 13, 2016 19:47:36 GMT -6
It's the standard in every session.
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Post by M57 on Mar 13, 2016 20:28:05 GMT -6
It's the standard in every session. ..in Nashville maybe. Never saw it in music school. No one has ever sent me a chart using it. Does anyone know if they teach it at Berklee these days? It doesn't seem robust enough to handle things like subdominant minor chords with ease, or a tune with direct modulations (at least and not retain it's 'movable do'-iness). But then I'm guessing at that point, the tune would be sophisticated/complicated enough that transposition is less a consideration - a more standard chart with chords seems to make sense there. |
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Post by EmRR on Mar 13, 2016 20:46:23 GMT -6
Right, hence the name.
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Post by drbill on Mar 13, 2016 21:25:00 GMT -6
In New York, Chicago, Detroit and LA key changes meant the arranger writing out new parts that had to be copied by hand since this was pre-Xerox. As a result you were talking about at least a half hour delay. Not with the session guys I worked with. Especially with simpler country-ish or rock styled songs. Call out a key and go. Even harmonically complex songs are generally not a problem. Personally, I don't dig the number system - especially the more complex the harmony gets - but I completely understand the reasoning behind it. Seems to work for N'Ville. If you show up in LA with one of those charts you'd get a lot of blank stares..... heh heh |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 13, 2016 21:25:48 GMT -6
I was speaking. About Nashville. I couldn't care less whether you use it - just passing on info.
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Post by M57 on Mar 13, 2016 21:26:12 GMT -6
Actually, I'm guessing it's used more widely than that - it does seem easy to learn and no doubt does the job with most 'pop' tunes in most genres. Yeah, it has a regional origin.. I'm not sure what Bob Olhhson was getting at when he talked about other cities. Was he saying that it wasn't or was used in those cities? Anyway I can't imagine that the jazz cats he was referring to couldn't transpose your basic pop song (with 5-6 chords) on the fly from just about any key to any key. They wouldn't/shouldn't need the numbers. Heck, I can do that and I'm just an amateur and I don't play out at all. |
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Post by drbill on Mar 13, 2016 21:27:42 GMT -6
I was speaking. About Nashville. I couldn't care less whether you use it - just passing on info. I'll use it when I move to Nashville. <thumbsup> When in Rome and all.... |
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Post by Quint on Mar 13, 2016 21:43:53 GMT -6
So it's a paper (digital) capo? Not trying to be a smart ass (too much... :-)) but I don't get the importance? I've been reading guitar tabs forever and, while I appreciate a number system like that (because I'm too slow at sight reading traditional music notation), I don't understand what makes the Nashville Number system better or even something I would care about? Please enlighten me.
Granted, I don't operate in the Nashville songwriting system but this concept is kind of lost on me.
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Post by unit7 on Mar 13, 2016 22:16:18 GMT -6
I'm jealous of you guys being used to this. Heard about it when I went to school in the 80s, and understood all the benefits. Especially in the learning years, getting used to think steps/functions and used to transposing, even complex progressions. It would have saved a lot of time and made me a better musician for sure. But because I've never seen it here (Sweden) it felt like a bit of a struggle trying to get people used to it. Was happy to hear recently that my students (jazz) at least get a good introduction and insight in the version with roman letters, I IV V etc.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Mar 14, 2016 4:53:57 GMT -6
It's the standard in every session. ..in Nashville maybe. Never saw it in music school. No one has ever sent me a chart using it. Does anyone know if they teach it at Berklee these days? It doesn't seem robust enough to handle things like subdominant minor chords with ease, or a tune with direct modulations (at least and not retain it's 'movable do'-iness). But then I'm guessing at that point, the tune would be sophisticated/complicated enough that transposition is less a consideration - a more standard chart with chords seems to make sense there. We didn't use it at Berklee, but it was quickly glossed over so we'd be aware of it. We did use a movable Do in ear training though, so that gives us a little more comfort. |
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Post by M57 on Mar 14, 2016 5:18:21 GMT -6
So it's a paper (digital) capo? Not trying to be a smart ass (too much... :-)) but I don't get the importance? I've been reading guitar tabs forever and, while I appreciate a number system like that (because I'm too slow at sight reading traditional music notation), I don't understand what makes the Nashville Number system better or even something I would care about? Please enlighten me. Granted, I don't operate in the Nashville songwriting system but this concept is kind of lost on me. It's nothing more than a modified version of the Roman Numeral system of analysis, which instead of giving you the 'name' of the chord, tells you the function of the chord. The importance/advantage of this comes when you're being asked to transpose. If you've got a tune in the key of E and an A/C# chord is on the chart, what chord do you play if the singer is having you play it in Db? Maybe not so hard for a guitarist, but for me as a pianist, that's a pretty nasty key change. With the NNS - it's a 4/6 chord - in every key. Personally, if I was devising the system, I think I'd call it a 4/3 chord where the 3 denotes the function of the bass note, not the scale tone, but that's nothing more than theoretical hair splitting. I've never used it, but I'm pretty sure I'd have no problem adjusting to it. It's pretty cool. Besides, most people can't read roman numerals any more.. Superbowl 50 - Gimmeabreak! |
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Post by Ward on Mar 14, 2016 12:52:22 GMT -6
It's the standard in every session. Well beyond the borders of beloved Tennessee too, folk!! |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Mar 14, 2016 21:30:51 GMT -6
I was talking about those cities during the 1950s and 60s before there were copy machines. The emphasis in Nashville was on memorization as opposed to the numbers and we're talking about recording 4 to 6 songs in three hours including vocals.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Mar 14, 2016 22:00:26 GMT -6
Funny, I teach basic transposition to beginners. I'm so used to the roman numerals, I instantly know the chords in most keys, it would take me a couple days to adjust to the numbers, numbers were always reserved for changes to the major chord, like sus 4, sus 2, add 9, maj7, etc..
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Post by Randge on Mar 15, 2016 4:41:21 GMT -6
I never "warmed" to the numbers system, but then again I don't earn a living as a session musician in Nashville. I prefer traditional jazz charts with notation for melody lines etc. for various reasons. I think if I was working with budding songwriter-singers and was spending a lot of time rearranging their songs and getting things in the right key for a singer then it could be useful, but most guys I work with have no trouble transposing. I'd be curious to know who uses this. Most songs coming out of Nashville, and elsewhere are so simple that it seems moving things a half step or two should be pretty simple. Perhaps it's still used by guys cranking out demos for new artists. Be on a 10am downbeat session and the singer feels like he can't reach the high notes that morning. What do you do? Drop it a half or whole step for them. Then what good does the written out notation do? Thus, the need for NNS being born... The other thing is the NNS allows the players to go "off script" so to speak, and adlib what they are feeling. You can momentarily look away from the page, interact with the other musicians and easily find where you are on the page when you come back. I can't imagine doing a session without NNS. |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Mar 15, 2016 15:35:03 GMT -6
Back in the live recorded singles era artists would be taken off the road to record and every album needed to be completed within a couple days. By the way, the Jordanaires did use figured bass Roman numerals.
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