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Post by swurveman on Jan 3, 2016 20:46:14 GMT -6
I agree that noise reduction software is helpful. As I said to popmann in my post above , I should not have used the room "noise" when talking about quiet. I'm talking about reducing the reverberant sound. I've seen your posts about Acoustic Curtains. So, I'm going to look there. Besides using the primacoustic Voxguards, does your tracking space have any treatment for reducing reverberation? My entire space has an acid stained concrete floor. So, in the space where I'm thinking about putting acoustic curtains up I'm thinking about putting down carpet as well. I just don't want to overdue it. So, any thoughts are helpful. Sounds like you are a candidate for the Hofa modular/movable walls and their curtains to kill what you want to. hofa-akustik.de/en/modules/mobile-wall/hofa-akustik.de/en/modules/curtain/Yes, I emailed them. Looking forward to their response.
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Post by swurveman on Jan 3, 2016 20:54:59 GMT -6
I made a mistake using the word "noise" in my original post. What I mean by "quiet" is that I hear very little room or reverberation in many of these recordings. I have a big room. So, despite having 17 bass (all OC703, some 6" deep ) traps, and two 32″W x 72″H x 3″ GIK Screen panels, I cannot get the room out of my recordings. The large room reverberation is always there, though it is a heckuva lot better than it was before those 17 bass traps and two screen panels. I can't build a 4 wall isolation booth within the room for economic/resale reasons for my house. So, I'm looking at creating a corner with Acoustic Curtains/blankets and carpet. I've never done this. So, I am looking to see what other people are doing. That's exactly what I did. img.photobucket.com/albums/v313/capeguy63/IMG_20140312_185851_zps77740454.jpgThanks mobeach. From what I've read about foam, which I assume is what you're using there without bass trapping in the corner, there's a problem with 600 Hz and below being too predominant in the vocal. Is that you're experience? Or, are you satisfied? I'm looking at this kind of solution for vocals as well. It's from a Dr. Luke interview where he said he uses it for his vocal booth. Inexpensive and portable. Like I said, I have tons of bass trapping in my room. What I need is quiet.
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Post by swurveman on Jan 3, 2016 21:48:17 GMT -6
Yup, that guitar sound does nothing for me... given balanced acoustic treatment throughout the room, i personally LOVE the sound of concrete floors 8) With the right walls and ceiling! If the other surfaces are too reflective they are a major problem, but if everything else is right HELL YEAH! Yep, this is what I've run into. I thought with 17 bass traps - all 4 inch 703 and more- and GIK standing panels that I would quiet my room to be able to track the way I wanted. I'll bet I'd need 50 or more to get where I could get the kind of quiet I need for pop vocals and pop acoustic guitar. So, I'm looking at old school solutions instead of fiberglass ones. And those GIK panels have hinges and no top. So, room reverberation is still a big factor.
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Post by mobeach on Jan 3, 2016 23:00:08 GMT -6
Thanks mobeach. From what I've read about foam, which I assume is what you're using there without bass trapping in the corner, there's a problem with 600 Hz and below being too predominant in the vocal. Is that you're experience? Or, are you satisfied? I'm looking at this kind of solution for vocals as well. It's from a Dr. Luke interview where he said he uses it for his vocal booth. Inexpensive and portable. Like I said, I have tons of bass trapping in my room. What I need is quiet. I use a music stand in front of me with a reflector (piece of plexi-glass) different angle depending on what Mic I'm using.
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Post by jimwilliams on Jan 4, 2016 10:28:29 GMT -6
Do you need quiet electronics or need less room sound? They are different noise sources and require different approaches.
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Post by svart on Jan 4, 2016 10:33:17 GMT -6
The "quiet" from pro mixes comes from careful editing. Each word is cut right on the beginning and ending, the noise between each guitar strum and drum hit is cut out, etc.
If you heard these things solo'd it would be a mismash of things popping in an out of tracks that are smoothed over with reverbs and other tracks being layered.
These pros are still using the gear that the guys in the 80's and 70's used that was super noisy on those older recordings.
The biggest difference is the ability to edit out the noise between the useful audio. that's all it is.
It's not uncommon for the noise floor to be up around -50 during mix time from all the analog gear and consoles, but that's all cut and faded in/out during mixing and mastering so you don't hear it.
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Post by swurveman on Jan 4, 2016 11:22:08 GMT -6
Do you need quiet electronics or need less room sound? They are different noise sources and require different approaches. Less room sound.
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Post by swurveman on Jan 4, 2016 11:29:56 GMT -6
The "quiet" from pro mixes comes from careful editing. Each word is cut right on the beginning and ending, the noise between each guitar strum and drum hit is cut out, etc. If you heard these things solo'd it would be a mismash of things popping in an out of tracks that are smoothed over with reverbs and other tracks being layered. These pros are still using the gear that the guys in the 80's and 70's used that was super noisy on those older recordings. The biggest difference is the ability to edit out the noise between the useful audio. that's all it is. It's not uncommon for the noise floor to be up around -50 during mix time from all the analog gear and consoles, but that's all cut and faded in/out during mixing and mastering so you don't hear it. I don't know svart. Listen to the acoustic guitar sound from this track below I posted before. I don't see how editing can make it so non reverberant. It was recording in a very non reverberant room imo. As I posted before, I shouldn't have used the word "noise" in my original post. I'm talking about very dry recordings that are then evened out by compression.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 4, 2016 11:47:49 GMT -6
I think you need to post something of yours that ISN'T as quiet as you would like it to me. I wasn't aware that in a DAW age this was an issue. Since you can in minutes edit the whole 30+ tracks to remove "dead air" noise. Manual, deliberate and flexible gating if you will. You mean the actual acoustic guitar track is so noisy you "hear noise" when it's alone? If so, where does that noise come from....you mention "without multiroom studios"--for all intents and purposes mine is single room--I keep thinking I'm going to pad up the second room and make it an iso booth, but I've not actually found much need. But, note that I'm OCD about noisy gear. I replace fans in nearly anything that has'em. I can literally hear my line regulator's "hum/buzz" right now as I type--and my monitors are on loud (not playing anything--just saying it will be at a rockin' volume when I hit play).... I made a mistake using the word "noise" in my original post. What I mean by "quiet" is that I hear very little room or reverberation in many of these recordings. I have a big room. So, despite having 17 bass (all OC703, some 6" deep ) traps, and two 32″W x 72″H x 3″ GIK Screen panels, I cannot get the room out of my recordings. The large room reverberation is always there, though it is a heckuva lot better than it was before those 17 bass traps and two screen panels. I can't build a 4 wall isolation booth within the room for economic/resale reasons for my house. So, I'm looking at creating a corner with Acoustic Curtains/blankets and carpet. I've never done this. So, I am looking to see what other people are doing. I would deaden the walls in a corner of the room, put a cloud overhead, lay carpet there, and set up the gobos to block the rest of the room (as the 3rd and 4th wall of the "booth"). Basically, come as close to a sound booth as you can without making a permanent structure.
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Post by swurveman on Jan 4, 2016 12:18:35 GMT -6
I made a mistake using the word "noise" in my original post. What I mean by "quiet" is that I hear very little room or reverberation in many of these recordings. I have a big room. So, despite having 17 bass (all OC703, some 6" deep ) traps, and two 32″W x 72″H x 3″ GIK Screen panels, I cannot get the room out of my recordings. The large room reverberation is always there, though it is a heckuva lot better than it was before those 17 bass traps and two screen panels. I can't build a 4 wall isolation booth within the room for economic/resale reasons for my house. So, I'm looking at creating a corner with Acoustic Curtains/blankets and carpet. I've never done this. So, I am looking to see what other people are doing. I would deaden the walls in a corner of the room, put a cloud overhead, lay carpet there, and set up the gobos to block the rest of the room (as the 3rd and 4th wall of the "booth"). Basically, come as close to a sound booth as you can without making a permanent structure. Thanks for your response Jesse. How big of a corner at a minimum do you think I'd need for acoustic guitar?
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 4, 2016 12:33:10 GMT -6
I would deaden the walls in a corner of the room, put a cloud overhead, lay carpet there, and set up the gobos to block the rest of the room (as the 3rd and 4th wall of the "booth"). Basically, come as close to a sound booth as you can without making a permanent structure. Thanks for your response Jesse. How big of a corner at a minimum do you think I'd need for acoustic guitar? That track that you posted sounds pretty dry and not very airy, so I expect that it was recorded in a small booth. I'd set up the guitar so that my back was to the corner with the rear of the mics aimed at the gobos. The smaller the space that you create, the less room should leak into the tracks, but you won't end up with a very sparkling / alive guitar sound either, so it will only work when it works, if you know what I mean.
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Post by svart on Jan 4, 2016 12:46:48 GMT -6
The "quiet" from pro mixes comes from careful editing. Each word is cut right on the beginning and ending, the noise between each guitar strum and drum hit is cut out, etc. If you heard these things solo'd it would be a mismash of things popping in an out of tracks that are smoothed over with reverbs and other tracks being layered. These pros are still using the gear that the guys in the 80's and 70's used that was super noisy on those older recordings. The biggest difference is the ability to edit out the noise between the useful audio. that's all it is. It's not uncommon for the noise floor to be up around -50 during mix time from all the analog gear and consoles, but that's all cut and faded in/out during mixing and mastering so you don't hear it. I don't know svart. Listen to the acoustic guitar sound from this track below I posted before. I don't see how editing can make it so non reverberant. It was recording in a very non reverberant room imo. As I posted before, I shouldn't have used the word "noise" in my original post. I'm talking about very dry recordings that are then evened out by compression. That sounds extremely close mic'd and heavily EQ'd to me.. The bottom end is extremely boomy and the top is obviously rolled off. My bet is that they rolled off the tops and extreme lows, and boosted the bottom, masking any obvious noise.
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Post by swurveman on Jan 4, 2016 13:24:51 GMT -6
Thanks for your response Jesse. How big of a corner at a minimum do you think I'd need for acoustic guitar? That track that you posted sounds pretty dry and not very airy, so I expect that it was recorded in a small booth. I'd set up the guitar so that my back was to the corner with the rear of the mics aimed at the gobos. The smaller the space that you create, the less room should leak into the tracks, but you won't end up with a very sparkling / alive guitar sound either, so it will only work when it works, if you know what I mean. FYI to you and everybody who may want/need a portable dry space. I just got a quote from HOFA acoustic curtains. I told them my two dimensions for a curtain based acoustic solution were: Curtain 1: 10.3 feet long x 8 feet high Curtain2: 6.2 feet long x 8 feet high So, a 10 x 6 x 8 space. Their cost was $1,052.00 for two curtains. The beauty is the portability. Just slide those curtains. But the cost......
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Post by swurveman on Jan 4, 2016 13:36:37 GMT -6
Thanks for your response Jesse. How big of a corner at a minimum do you think I'd need for acoustic guitar? That track that you posted sounds pretty dry and not very airy, so I expect that it was recorded in a small booth. I'd set up the guitar so that my back was to the corner with the rear of the mics aimed at the gobos. The smaller the space that you create, the less room should leak into the tracks, but you won't end up with a very sparkling / alive guitar sound either, so it will only work when it works, if you know what I mean. Thanks. I'm not a big fan of a bright sparkling acoustic sound, but I will say that when they're strumming in that song, which is a big part of the chorus, there is some sparkle there. The reason I bring this up is that there are acoustic guitarists, Ani Difranco being one, who I've read cut a lot past 2K. But I don't think they did this -at least for the chorus strummed guitars- but could be wrong. And I don't think the chorus guitars are any more wet than the intro one. Thanks for the discussion!
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 4, 2016 14:09:53 GMT -6
In the chorus, it just sounds to me like they cut out some of the bottom of the acoustic to make room in the mix.
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Post by swurveman on Jan 4, 2016 14:28:55 GMT -6
In the chorus, it just sounds to me like they cut out some of the bottom of the acoustic to make room in the mix. Yeah, and the opening riff has that A-F#-D 8th note bass from the acoustic that gives it some bottom. They handle the balance really well imo in the performance. Wonder if they overdubbed the acoustics bass notes. That's a pretty fast tempo.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 4, 2016 14:32:46 GMT -6
swurveman. I'm nearly positive that it's 2 tracks doing the bass riff and chords.
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Post by Ward on Jan 4, 2016 15:43:30 GMT -6
I am so completely out of touch!!
Clearly, I have no taste or modern production skills.
WHY??? BEcause... I LOVE to hear someone breathe in a vocal track, I love every aspect of human 'noise' in vocals.
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Post by swurveman on Jan 4, 2016 18:12:34 GMT -6
swurveman . I'm nearly positive that it's 2 tracks doing the bass riff and chords. Yeah, it would take a very guitarist to do it, and they have more EQ control with the low end tracking with two guitars.
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Post by porkyman on Jan 4, 2016 18:37:49 GMT -6
what about spl de-verb?
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Post by zsarbomba on Jan 4, 2016 23:51:30 GMT -6
I'm not sure of the math but logic and experience tells me that there is a point at which a dead rooms size is either problematic or correct. If a room is too small and dead, mids and highs reflected become a disaster to deal with. Booths should be banned. If the room is too big but dead the recording has zero sense of position and without knowing how to add a scientifically added sense of space that becomes a disaster also. There is a size. Not sure of it tho? And I'm sure certain instruments etc require a different sized dead room.
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Post by Guitar on Jan 5, 2016 16:41:26 GMT -6
Great comments. I think a lot of the pop "quietness" too is that many of the sounds are sampled or synthetic in nature, with no room and no noise floor. Building up tracks like that can feel really flat or smooth, or something. Also the heavy compression and limiting creates sort of a gentle dynamic that's easy on the ears, which may sound quiet in a way. Nothing really popping in and out. Just a big soft wall of sound. All making place for the intimate lead vocal.
I'm not an expert on top 40 production methods, but trying to figure out that sound fascinates me to no end.
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