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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 27, 2015 12:02:17 GMT -6
Just stimulating debate...I certainly hear the warmth of the Beatles' vocals. The punch of the kick and bass on "Rumours." The room on Bonzo drums...etc. Would it have mattered what Marvin Gaye sang into? Whether Hendrix played a strat or a tele? Whether Lindsay Buckingham recorded into a Neve or API board? But ultimately, doesn't it all come back to the performance and in the end, the song?
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Post by winetree on Dec 27, 2015 12:12:06 GMT -6
The old American Bandstand saying. "It's got a good beat and you can dance to it." Still holds true today. |
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Post by chasmanian on Dec 27, 2015 12:27:57 GMT -6
this is just my humble opinion:
the 2 things that count the most by far:
- is it a good song
- is it an inspired performance.
next, the talent/skill of the artist/performer.
they have to have at least some talent/skill.
next is the quality of the gear. mic, all that stuff. and of course the quality of the audio engineering/recording/mixing/mastering.
but, in my most humblest opinion:
the first 2 things I wrote are by far, the most important things.
they make or break the whole deal.
if there is nothing great about the song, if there is no heart and soul, no dramatic expression, heartfelt feeling,
go home.
go back to the drawing board.
take a nap.
come back when you have something of real awesome value.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Dec 27, 2015 13:10:09 GMT -6
You often need a good song to inspire a great performance however plenty of mediocre songs have been huge hits for great performers. The main requirement is that the song be easy to learn and fun to sing along with. I got a kick out of Jack Radio because everything they played had been a top 10 hit for a week or so but it was glaringly obvious why each had quickly fallen off the charts. They seem to still be on the air here in Nashvegas.
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Post by tonycamphd on Dec 27, 2015 13:16:06 GMT -6
believability
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Post by rowmat on Dec 27, 2015 13:17:45 GMT -6
The summary by Chasmanian can be also by applied to film making which I think is very similar... 1. Begun with a great a script (song) 2. Cast it well with great actors that can produce inspired performances (musicians) 3. Don't f*ck it up! Unless you get the first two right no amount of slick production, special effects, clever editing etc will compensate for a bad script and poor acting and/or miscast performers. Of course when it comes to the general public's taste, 'great' and 'popular' are often mutually exclusive!  |
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Post by popmann on Dec 27, 2015 13:56:25 GMT -6
I think the elephant in the room would be to ask if you think we can agree on a great recording.
I would say that I can only offer that personally, I'm responding to the performance....the only response a recording quality gets is it being turned off for being too far to the bad/incompetent side. And to loop back to the first point, some of your borders. I've been told my standards are too high...."because you know about audio stuff"....but, I'd argue I know about audio stuff because I'm sensitive to that. Chicken/egg, I guess. But, when I was a kid, Chicago and Floyd was the only "classic rock" (at the time would been rock prior to 80) I really got into. Because I didn't think that sounded "old and crusty"....
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Dec 27, 2015 14:47:27 GMT -6
Men aren't as vocal-centric as women but the main thing to make sure of is that nothing about the production is distracting from the performance. What's good needs to overwhelm what's bad.
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Post by mobeach on Dec 27, 2015 14:59:39 GMT -6
this is just my humble opinion: the 2 things that count the most by far: - is it a good song - is it an inspired performance. next, the talent/skill of the artist/performer. they have to have at least some talent/skill. George Throrogood and Bob Dylan proved you don't have to be talented musicians (I'll probably draw fire for that) but they were just good song writers, and in Dylans case he was in the right era for what he was doing. In all reality Thorogood was mediocre at best, that less is more era helped him out. |
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Post by swurveman on Dec 27, 2015 15:04:16 GMT -6
It's everything. For example, since you mentioned Lindsay Buckingham, I think this article says a lot about engineering. |
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Post by wiz on Dec 27, 2015 15:05:30 GMT -6
I think its not "one" thing ...
I was painting yesterday, up a ladder, and had the radio on.. "Super Freak" came on... now that song, who cares about the lyric 8) its the bass line...
Sweet Caroline ... its the BA BA BAAAAA bit... crowds always sing that...
Smoke on the water, its the riff
Staying alive, the riff
Driftaway, its the chorus, every one loves to sing that
Sometimes its a hook, sometimes a lyric line, sometimes a riff, sometimes a chorus
Sometimes the whole and sum of the parts...
It was always Floyd, then Mark Knopfler who took me away...
3 minute pop songs are fun, and great, and some immediately take me back to a time and place... transported as fast as an old loves perfume....
But, when I heard floyd, I was mesmerised by the whole album concept... The Final Cut, is a great example.
Sometimes its the vocal performance, e.g. Leonard Cohens Hallelujah, The song "Torn" by Natalie Imbruglia has a massive emotional impact on me. I don't know why, maybe due to the time it was released and the emotional and physical place I was in at the time.
I will say this.. all great songs have ONE thing in common...
NO ONE F$*KED UP IN THE RECORDING AND MIXING PROCESS 8)
cheers
Wiz
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Post by mrholmes on Dec 27, 2015 15:59:55 GMT -6
Just stimulating debate...I certainly hear the warmth of the Beatles' vocals. The punch of the kick and bass on "Rumours." The room on Bonzo drums...etc. Would it have mattered what Marvin Gaye sang into? Whether Hendrix played a strat or a tele? Whether Lindsay Buckingham recorded into a Neve or API board? But ultimately, doesn't it all come back to the performance and in the end, the song? Sure song and arrangement, as well as knowing how to play. Does it matter which gear it was? I am sure the fab four would sound great even in my small homestudio, would they sound bigger than life? I guess no. BTW Hendrix did play the solo on Hey-Joe on a Tele by bandmade Mitchel. Listen to SRV on a Dreadnought and you will know who it is in bar one. Gear matters to a ceartain point, as soon it gets too esoteric I am out. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Dec 27, 2015 16:56:00 GMT -6
I think its not "one" thing ... I was painting yesterday, up a ladder, and had the radio on.. "Super Freak" came on... now that song, who cares about the lyric 8) its the bass line... Sweet Caroline ... its the BA BA BAAAAA bit... crowds always sing that... Smoke on the water, its the riff Staying alive, the riff Driftaway, its the chorus, every one loves to sing that Sometimes its a hook, sometimes a lyric line, sometimes a riff, sometimes a chorus Sometimes the whole and sum of the parts... It was always Floyd, then Mark Knopfler who took me away... 3 minute pop songs are fun, and great, and some immediately take me back to a time and place... transported as fast as an old loves perfume.... But, when I heard floyd, I was mesmerised by the whole album concept... The Final Cut, is a great example. Sometimes its the vocal performance, e.g. Leonard Cohens Hallelujah, The song "Torn" by Natalie Imbruglia has a massive emotional impact on me. I don't know why, maybe due to the time it was released and the emotional and physical place I was in at the time. I will say this.. all great songs have ONE thing in common... NO ONE F$*KED UP IN THE RECORDING AND MIXING PROCESS 8) cheers Wiz AE's are way to self important, i'd argue that Eddie Kramer completely F-d up most of the Hendrix stuff, but no one could stop Jimi! ex, listen to 45 seconds in on this haha, this is one of the most vibey records ever made, and i think that glitch qualifies as a major recording F-up! That's what little importance us AE's have, it's 95% music and performance, if you can add the last 5% as an AE, you're golden 8) |
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Post by mrholmes on Dec 27, 2015 17:07:42 GMT -6
Good point.z There is noone like good old Bruce Springsteen who can make a great song about the things that happend to him just mhhh last week. I did like it 30 years ago, now I love it because I can find myself, my own life, in his songs. I always think something like ..... fantastic it happend to you as well. |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Dec 27, 2015 17:15:23 GMT -6
I think its not "one" thing ... I was painting yesterday, up a ladder, and had the radio on.. "Super Freak" came on... now that song, who cares about the lyric 8) its the bass line... Sweet Caroline ... its the BA BA BAAAAA bit... crowds always sing that... Smoke on the water, its the riff Staying alive, the riff Driftaway, its the chorus, every one loves to sing that Sometimes its a hook, sometimes a lyric line, sometimes a riff, sometimes a chorus Sometimes the whole and sum of the parts... It was always Floyd, then Mark Knopfler who took me away... 3 minute pop songs are fun, and great, and some immediately take me back to a time and place... transported as fast as an old loves perfume.... But, when I heard floyd, I was mesmerised by the whole album concept... The Final Cut, is a great example. Sometimes its the vocal performance, e.g. Leonard Cohens Hallelujah, The song "Torn" by Natalie Imbruglia has a massive emotional impact on me. I don't know why, maybe due to the time it was released and the emotional and physical place I was in at the time. I will say this.. all great songs have ONE thing in common... NO ONE F$*KED UP IN THE RECORDING AND MIXING PROCESS 8) cheers Wiz Sometimes it's the cowbell. Right donr? Haha |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Dec 27, 2015 17:27:20 GMT -6
Tony said, "believability", I agree. The best singers are the ones you believe.
Bob said, "the main thing to be is that nothing about the production be distracting from the performance", that's certainly rule # 1, first, do no harm.
mrholmes mentioned Bruce Springsteen. When that guy sang "Tougher than the Rest", live for the first Amnesty International" benefit, you'd have thought he was just served divorce papers backstage. Believability is key.
Talent can and does trump engineering, for sure. I wore the grooves off of the first Roxy Music album, and it sounded like they stuck a mic in a can outside the studio.
Where engineering gets tricky, is when it's part of the art. A great song can carry a not so great performance, a great performance can sometimes lift up a not so great song, but using Roxy Music again to make a point, by the time they did Avalon, the engineering was a huge part of the artistic statement, it HAD to sound the way it did, or it wouldn't be Avalon, a "great recording". So sometimes, the engineering is art, which is a big part of why we all fuss about esoterica I think.
Since my skills at recording are very basic at best, I'm endeavoring to open myself up and find the feeling again when I'm recording. I've been through some things that made me be very focused mentally to get through, but the music that strikes me as true music is heart based, and I'm personally trying to find my heart space again.
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Post by chasmanian on Dec 27, 2015 17:28:57 GMT -6
the cowbell. more cowbell. that SNL skit is sooooooo one of my favorite things in life. it is a masterpiece of comedic art. have been thinking about it the past few days. for any of you that are not familiar: www.hulu.com/watch/536145 |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Dec 27, 2015 17:34:10 GMT -6
https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/more-cowbell
I recorded this as a joke I sent to M57 and cowboycoalminer a couple of weeks back, so enjoy...
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Post by popmann on Dec 27, 2015 17:35:39 GMT -6
The analogy is "not dropping the ball while running it up the field". It's not HARD....and it's both imperative to the success and not ever a causal relationship. Otherwise, drop the ball, and the game is lost no matter who/what the fuck happened in that studio. That's the disconnect on this point. It IS allowed to be an important job in the process of you know--MAKING A RECORDING....AND be completely blame/credit free of whether something artistically connects or doesn't. Those aren't mutually exclusive.
As a side note: I've never worked with an audio engineer who (at least seemed to me) to think they were somehow the important part of the equation. Quite the opposite. We want to do a good job because we love and admire what's happening in the room.
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Post by chasmanian on Dec 27, 2015 17:43:49 GMT -6
"the music that strikes me as true music is heart based."
me too.
its all about the heart and soul.
(that is so cool, that you made that recording.)
"We want to do a good job because we love and admire what's happening in the room."
which makes you, in my book, exactly the right man, the perfect dude for the job.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Dec 27, 2015 17:48:59 GMT -6
As a bit of an aside, a large part of being a great engineer is knowing how to adapt your personality to the musicians that you're working with. Some people need their hand held, others need a bit of a push to get the performance, some need encouragement. Being able to gauge the room is as important as anything.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,011 
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Post by ericn on Dec 27, 2015 17:58:42 GMT -6
It can be many things, but the Songs that are always my first plays are songs that tell a story, The Beatles, Neil and Tim Finn, John Hiatt, Springsteen, Lindsey Buckingham, Peter Gabrial Brian Wilson.
Mark Knofler, they are all great storytellers and use the music for the purpose of telling the story.
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Post by tonycamphd on Dec 27, 2015 18:07:01 GMT -6
As a bit of an aside, a large part of being a great engineer is knowing how to adapt your personality to the musicians that you're working with. Some people need their hand held, others need a bit of a push to get the performance, some need encouragement. Being able to gauge the room is as important as anything. the job title you speak of is traditionally a called a PRODUCER |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Dec 27, 2015 18:10:08 GMT -6
As a bit of an aside, a large part of being a great engineer is knowing how to adapt your personality to the musicians that you're working with. Some people need their hand held, others need a bit of a push to get the performance, some need encouragement. Being able to gauge the room is as important as anything. the job title you speak of is traditionally a called a PRODUCER True, but I would guess that like me, many other engineers here have to cross into a light version of that role for many sessions. |
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,011
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Post by ericn on Dec 27, 2015 18:58:06 GMT -6
the job title you speak of is traditionally a called a PRODUCER True, but I would guess that like me, many other engineers here have to cross into a light version of that role for many sessions. This was even more true in the days of tape, when often it was the AE who chose what take was the keeper! |
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