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Post by M57 on Nov 19, 2015 19:17:53 GMT -6
I'm currently using a pair of Rode NT5's to mic my Kawai. I was considering getting a nice stereo preamp or channel strip setup to get the most out of the mics, but I'm re-thinking the logic of that, the mics being at the front of the chain and all. If I can get a companion for my Dizengoff D4 - skip getting a pair of comps, then I could use the money to upgrade the mics. Thoughts? Suggestions?
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Post by drbill on Nov 19, 2015 19:41:15 GMT -6
I vote "other". Google "ribbon madness....some comparisons". It's a rare day I'll pull out condenser for piano anymore.....and I've got condensers that I like way more than your potential choices. (My opinion of course.)
BTW, my pics for piano would be (probably in order, but depends on song and piano)
1. MJoly modded 205's (Killer desert island ribbons) 2. Coles 4038 - a classic, and great for ambient, open, and non-congested solo piano 3. I'd like to try the Samar VL37. They are probably good on pno....
If you were going to MAKE me use a condenser.....KM84 would be my only logical choice.
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Post by M57 on Nov 19, 2015 20:10:13 GMT -6
I vote "other". Google "ribbon madness....some comparisons". It's a rare day I'll pull out condenser for piano anymore.....and I've got condensers that I like way more than your potential choices. (My opinion of course.) BTW, my pics for piano would be (probably in order, but depends on song and piano) 1. MJoly modded 205's (Killer desert island ribbons) 2. Coles 4038 - a classic, and great for ambient, open, and non-congested solo piano 3. I'd like to try the Samar VL37. They are probably good on pno.... If you were going to MAKE me use a condenser.....KM84 would be my only logical choice. All great recommendations but all way over budget. Except maybe the first one. is it the Apex 205? - how much is the mod for a pair?
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Nov 19, 2015 22:07:26 GMT -6
It would depend on the piano wouldn't it Bill? I've heard M 57's piano and it's on the mellow/ darkish side. Not sure ribbons are what I'd reach for first on that one but they would work. Wht not send those NT 5's to Joly and let him pimp them out? Or better still, Shannon. He can make them sound like whatever you want. Mic wizard that one.
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Post by Randge on Nov 19, 2015 22:37:56 GMT -6
Call Pepper and get a good deal on some C5 Miktek's. Then, save for a stereo Royer to put back about 5 feet from the piano. Heavenly sounding.
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Post by drbill on Nov 19, 2015 23:56:59 GMT -6
I vote "other". Google "ribbon madness....some comparisons". It's a rare day I'll pull out condenser for piano anymore.....and I've got condensers that I like way more than your potential choices. (My opinion of course.) BTW, my pics for piano would be (probably in order, but depends on song and piano) 1. MJoly modded 205's (Killer desert island ribbons) 2. Coles 4038 - a classic, and great for ambient, open, and non-congested solo piano 3. I'd like to try the Samar VL37. They are probably good on pno.... If you were going to MAKE me use a condenser.....KM84 would be my only logical choice. All great recommendations but all way over budget. Except maybe the first one. is it the Apex 205? - how much is the mod for a pair? Nope. It's my #1 choice, and significantly UNDER your budget by quite a bit I think. I think by the time you buy the mics and have em modded you might be in around $700-800 or so with shock mounts. And they are a desert island mic for me.
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Post by drbill on Nov 20, 2015 0:03:46 GMT -6
It would depend on the piano wouldn't it Bill? I've heard M 57's piano and it's on the mellow/ darkish side. Not sure ribbons are what I'd reach for first on that one but they would work. Wht not send those NT 5's to Joly and let him pimp them out? Or better still, Shannon. He can make them sound like whatever you want. Mic wizard that one. Not for me. I don't like condensers on piano. Now WHICH ribbon I reach for depending on piano and song - yeah, theres a difference, and often a right and wrong. But the modded 205's are the best all round compromise for me. If it's really open and poignant and ambient and needs to sing, then the Coles are the first choice. If really dense and percussive, the 121/122/etc. royer clan can work well. The 205's are a little thinned out in the low mids and have a huge bottom, and beautiful open top - I'd describe it as a "modern" ribbon sound. That's what I'm usually looking for unless it's a rock track. But IMO, no condenser sounds as smooth and natural as a ribbon, and if you need more HF, grab the EQ. Don't try messing with the top with a condenser though - especially a cheap one. Phase smear and harshness. That's all my opinion, but one I've come to after recording lots of pianos in lots of applications over a couple of decades. Condensers obviously CAN work, but I will have to fight them to get them to where I want em.
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Post by Randge on Nov 20, 2015 6:42:04 GMT -6
Ribbons typically don't have enough upper mid and top end to cut a dense mix without lots of processing but they have beautiful natural bloom and warmth. That's why I like them (in a beautiful room) back away a few feet and condensers inside to blend to taste. Shannon's mods are the reason I fell in love with condensers again and I wouldn't hesitate to put some of my modded pencils in any piano application. Bill, you need to give Shannon a try there.
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Post by Randge on Nov 20, 2015 6:45:49 GMT -6
I am lucky to live close to Johnathan Cain's(Journey)studio and how he mics looks like it would be phase-y and terrible but it works perfectly. He made me a "believer", pun intended. He uses two pair of condensers as well.
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 20, 2015 9:25:46 GMT -6
I vote "other". Google "ribbon madness....some comparisons". It's a rare day I'll pull out condenser for piano anymore.....and I've got condensers that I like way more than your potential choices. (My opinion of course.) BTW, my pics for piano would be (probably in order, but depends on song and piano) 1. MJoly modded 205's (Killer desert island ribbons) 2. Coles 4038 - a classic, and great for ambient, open, and non-congested solo piano 3. I'd like to try the Samar VL37. They are probably good on pno.... If you were going to MAKE me use a condenser.....KM84 would be my only logical choice. All great recommendations but all way over budget. Except maybe the first one. is it the Apex 205? - how much is the mod for a pair? I believe i paid under a grand for my PAIR of Samar modded Alctron RM8b's(apex 205's) including the mics, Mark installed his torroid tranny's, 1.? ribbon(i believe 1.5 or 1.8, cant remember), his custom designed diffuser plates, the mics are just spectacular sounding, the high end extension is just unheard in other ribbon mics.
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Post by svart on Nov 20, 2015 9:28:58 GMT -6
I voted KM184. I have a pair and they are stellar. They are slightly more articulate in the top than the KM84 which would make a piano cut through a mix with ease, something that ribbons will not do.
If it were a solo piano or main piano, I'd likely get the C414 (perhaps older BLS version) for the piano. They are definitely a good workhorse mic for things like this.
IF you had the money, (which I'm guessing your budget is around 1K-1.2K?) There are no better LDCs than the Gefell M930 for piano and most other things.. but each mic is the same as your total budget..
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Post by EmRR on Nov 20, 2015 9:45:45 GMT -6
Samar VL37 pair, or his mod (ask his suggestion) of some cheaper type. VL37 will have better top extension than most ribbons, I rarely have to add any with EQ. I've used blumlein pair of Samar BEHIND the performer with my Kimball upright lots of times, and the clients always love it. I realize this is DEFCON territory, sell something.
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Post by bradd on Nov 20, 2015 11:26:58 GMT -6
I am lucky to live close to Johnathan Cain's(Journey)studio and how he mics looks like it would be phase-y and terrible but it works perfectly. He made me a "believer", pun intended. He uses two pair of condensers as well. I'm curious. What mics is he using and where is he placing them? If I remember correctly, he has a Fazioli. Is that right?
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Post by drbill on Nov 20, 2015 11:52:05 GMT -6
Ribbons typically don't have enough upper mid and top end to cut a dense mix without lots of processing but they have beautiful natural bloom and warmth. That's why I like them (in a beautiful room) back away a few feet and condensers inside to blend to taste. Shannon's mods are the reason I fell in love with condensers again and I wouldn't hesitate to put some of my modded pencils in any piano application. Bill, you need to give Shannon a try there. I suspect *what* we record and personal preference has a lot more to do with out choices than the mic itself. I'm not recording country music usually, and have a lot more "open space" than most country records - often with an orchestral underpinning. I can't remember the last time I recorded a pno with lacquered hammers. I'm rarely worried about "cutting thru a mix" and much more concerned with how the tone sings. I'd love to try ANY of Shannon's mics, but am not sure I could afford them. All that said, I still prefer ribbons over SDC's and I have a bunch of really great ones - KM84's, Old C451E/EB's, Gefells, etc.. For me personally, a KM184 would probably be the last mic I'd pull, and yet, it's the choice of others here.
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Post by Ward on Nov 20, 2015 11:58:52 GMT -6
Neumann-Gefell M930s.
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Post by svart on Nov 20, 2015 13:14:38 GMT -6
Just going to bring up the thread over at GS that had the blind KM84 vs. KM184 testing where everyone was choosing one of the tracks as their favorite and determining that it MUST be the KM84.. Until the OP revealed that the most popular track was actually the KM184..
Then all the armchair engineers started backtracking on their choices, making excuses for their decision, and ultimately the thread ended up with something like half the responses deleted.. IIRC, there were some big names putting their "vast experience" to the test claiming to know without a doubt that the thread favorite MUST have been the KM84.. To the point of someone questioning if the files had been mixed up during upload..
It just goes to show that expectation can drive opinions, and vice-versa.
I know I answered your question directly, but I also wanted to ask:
What's the problem with your current setup?
Do you have a specific issue, or are you just expecting that your setup isn't good enough based on reading forum threads?
I don't know your location, but if you have any chance of borrowing/renting some different mics and preamps, that would be your best bet. You might be surprised how well your setup holds up, or then again, it might pale in comparison..
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Post by Randge on Nov 20, 2015 13:24:36 GMT -6
Ribbons typically don't have enough upper mid and top end to cut a dense mix without lots of processing but they have beautiful natural bloom and warmth. That's why I like them (in a beautiful room) back away a few feet and condensers inside to blend to taste. Shannon's mods are the reason I fell in love with condensers again and I wouldn't hesitate to put some of my modded pencils in any piano application. Bill, you need to give Shannon a try there. I suspect *what* we record and personal preference has a lot more to do with out choices than the mic itself. I'm not recording country music usually, and have a lot more "open space" than most country records - often with an orchestral underpinning. I can't remember the last time I recorded a pno with lacquered hammers. I'm rarely worried about "cutting thru a mix" and much more concerned with how the tone sings. I'd love to try ANY of Shannon's mics, but am not sure I could afford them. All that said, I still prefer ribbons over SDC's and I have a bunch of really great ones - KM84's, Old C451E/EB's, Gefells, etc.. For me personally, a KM184 would probably be the last mic I'd pull, and yet, it's the choice of others here. Without recapsuling and tuning the capsule to taste, 184's are about the last mic I ever want to use.
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Post by Randge on Nov 20, 2015 13:32:57 GMT -6
I record all kinds of music here from soundtrack stuff to vanity records. Lots of piano parts. Most of it is Ravenscroft 275 or I go to Addiction studio and record Jonathan Cain's piano if the tracks need it. I'd imagine it isn't all that easy to keep busy recording piano focused music these days.
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Post by Ward on Nov 20, 2015 14:29:17 GMT -6
Given the on-azis ideal recording of a source by both a U87 and a U87ai on the one hand, then a KM84 and a KM184, I would probably pick the newer microphone most times. But it is not the on-axis ideal situations where the older mics shine, it is in the ri forgiving nature of off-axis sources . . .
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 20, 2015 14:41:15 GMT -6
So none of you guys are of the mindset that the omni Earthworks mics would be a good fit? You can close mic without the proximity effect. Good on/off axis pickup so they will pickup the piano well without getting wonky.
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Post by mulmany on Nov 20, 2015 14:54:38 GMT -6
A friend has a Kawai baby grand, and I know what you mean. They have an odd dark almost muddy low mid range. The last time I recorded it I tried a bunch of different mics and did not settle on really loving any of them. Next time I am going to try the OktavaMod MC-012's.
I have used, at4050's, Hulk 990, Shinybox Ribbon. Was not super happy with any of them. I ended up doing a lot of eq to remove the lowend/low mid bloat.
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Post by svart on Nov 20, 2015 15:26:05 GMT -6
So none of you guys are of the mindset that the omni Earthworks mics would be a good fit? You can close mic without the proximity effect. Good on/off axis pickup so they will pickup the piano well without getting wonky. I had a pair and didn't really get along with them. They are also noisy mics due to the type of capsule they use.
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Post by M57 on Nov 20, 2015 15:42:26 GMT -6
I know I answered your question directly, but I also wanted to ask: What's the problem with your current setup? Do you have a specific issue, or are you just expecting that your setup isn't good enough based on reading forum threads? Thanks for the great question, It's a home studio. The recordings will range from the piano being buried in a rock mix, to a 1+1 with a vocal. And I'd like to be able to do remote work for others. Yes, the piano is darker, so I'm definitely not looking for a mic that would accentuate that aspect of it. The NT-5's are not bad in that regard, but if I had to characterize what I don't like about them, it's that they can sound thin, almost brittle ..and they're persnickety. Every time I use them I end up moving them around for what seems like eternity trying to find a sweet spot. I've given up on xy and usually end up spacing them about 15-20" apart. Right now about 10" above the tuning pegs and angled slightly into the piano. The room is not particularly good sounding so I have it heavily treated. Nevertheless, it seems like I end up pushing up a level of the third room/ambience mic to give things heft.
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Post by svart on Nov 20, 2015 15:54:57 GMT -6
I know I answered your question directly, but I also wanted to ask: What's the problem with your current setup? Do you have a specific issue, or are you just expecting that your setup isn't good enough based on reading forum threads? Thanks for the great question, It's a home studio. I just want to create the best music I can, so the recordings will range from the piano being buried in a rock mix, to a 1+1 with a vocal. And I'd like to be able to do remote work for others. Yes, the piano is darker, so I'm definitely not looking for a mic that would accentuate that aspect of it. The NT-5's are not bad in that regard, but if I had to characterize what I don't like about them, it's that they can sound thin, almost brittle ..and they're persnickety. Every time I use them I end up moving them around for what seems like eternity trying to find a sweet spot. I've given up on xy and usually end up spacing them about 15-20" apart. Right now about 10" above the tuning pegs and angled slightly into the piano. The room is not particularly good sounding so I have it heavily treated. Nevertheless, it seems like I end up pushing up a level of the third room/ambience mic to give things heft. Ok, gotcha. If it were me, since the piano is darker, I'd go for a SDC simply because they don't accentuate lows so much and can be much more even sounding when placed closer to a source. I've never heard the NT5 mics, so I can't say if they're all that different from other SDCs. I just know that my KM184's into my 1272 preamps are a thing of beauty. Maybe you should try some different preamps first, just to see how things change. I know a lot of mics will sound different through different input impedances and input structures like transistors vs. transformers, etc.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Nov 20, 2015 16:43:59 GMT -6
I've got a pair of Joly modded Oktava 12's I could send you to try if you like, Mark. Shouldn't cost more than 5 or 10 bucks to mail them back and forth.
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